Tell me about Survive! S7 steel, how does it compare to others?

I'm sure I'm not the only one that's thinking it. How does S7 compare to INFI?

Jerry Busse once wrote that S7 (or SR77 as SYKCO called it after their modification of the formula and HT of it) was tougher than INFI but couldn't reach as high of hardness and didn't possess the same level of wear-resistance (INFI is on par with 154CM). Many still consider INFI the absolute best compromise in edge strength, toughness, & wear-resistance. But, of course, it is proprietary and comes at a price... Most folks 'make due' with other steels ;)
 
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Keep in mind that discussing toughness is not simply a matter of breaking the entire knife, it can be reduced to breaking/chipping vs rolling at the very edge of your knife, i.e. dulling. Wear-resistance is against abrasive wear, most commonly experienced cutting material like cardboard, rope, hair-fibers (shaving & skinning), scraping (planer blades), etc. Slicing meat & veggies, carving/whittling wood, anytime there is risk of edge-impact - these depend more upon strength and toughness of the edge, i.e. highest hardness coupled with highest possible toughness in the thinnest possible geometry to stabilize it.
1095CV at ~56Rc (e.g. Becker/Kabar BK-16) has the lowest strength, toughness, and wear-resistance of the group. Unless it features substantially thinner geometry, it is inferior on all counts, and the coating is thicker and prone to dragging. Also, the product design (handle shape, materials, sheath, etc.) may be inferior, though the handle is longer, more accommodating of medium-large hands than the SK-4. And the BK-16 can be had for <$70.

BRKT Bravo 1 in A2 steel @ 58-59Rc is stronger and tougher and should have thinner edge geometry for improved cutting efficiency (though this may equalize them in strength/toughness, which is indeed the point). However the standard Bravo1 design is pretty sad. To begin, it is too fat but the "LT" version is better, you need to be sure to order one that is rampless, preferably drop-point, their thumb-jimping is NOT user friendly, they've had sheath issues so be selective there, their vast offering of pretty scales are mostly too slick, and the handle is so straight and round (at least on the fat version) that the knife tends to twist in hand. The destruction-test on a Bravo 1 did not go well (edge too fragile), but as previously stated it is quite thin at the edge (or mine was, anyway) and it sounds like you won't use it too hard. Oh, and then there is the reputation of their fans and the owner (Mike Stewart) ... yeah, I won't go there. And you can get all that for $200+ especially if you upgrade to 3V.

Survive! SK-4 is S7 steel @ 57-58Rc, much tougher than the rest but not quite as strong, not quite as wear-resistant as A2, it has 2X thicker edge geometry than the Bravo1 (0.028" vs 0.015") so it won't cut as aggressively unless modified... but it has superior handle design, the blade is cerakote'd to prevent corrosion, it comes with an excellent sheath, and as B34NS indicated, it is easy to sharpen. Can be had for <$160.
Survive! GSO-4.1 is somewhat superior to the SK-4 in almost every way but is also more expensive ~$190 unless a "factory second".

IMHO, I'd sooner check out the Makers section and get a custom knife rather than a BRKT: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php/754-For-Sale-Fixed-Blades
If something you like doesn't pop up, you could always contact a maker (like KalEl above) and arrange something. There are also other BRKT models, I just pick on the one I've owned.
The BK-16 is cheaper, and lots of folks will happily make due with that :thumbup: Also you can upgrade it to micarta scales, get a better sheath, strip the coating ... in the end you'll pay as much for it as for the others but if that handle is more comfortable you won't regret it. The Survive! Knives are worth the money, imho, but may require thinning down the edge-shoulders to improve cutting if that is your desire. They certainly come shaving-sharp from the factory (I have video to prove it). However, if the handle doesn't suit you or can't be modified to your liking, you'll regret the purchase... but you could always sell it for little if any loss and still get something else ;)

As with most BF suggestions, get ALL of them and THEN decide :p:D

Thanks, exactly the info I was looking for
 
Yep. S7 was a staple of Scrap Yard knives when Dan Busse started up the company. He (or perhaps more accurately, Jerry) made some stupid tough camp knives and choppers out of it. In fact, Mike Stewart congratulated Jerry for wringing about as much as could be had out of that alloy. (FYI, S7 is the alloy used in jackhammer bits, so you know it's tough!)

If I were the OP, I'd keep an eye out on the Busse FS subforum for used Dog Fathers, SODs, Yardkeepers, and the like.

Why don't they use S7 anymore?
 
Jerry Busse once wrote that S7 (or SR77 as SYKCO called it after their modification of the formula and HT of it

Any idea of what they modified the formula too? I read SR77 was just a name they called S7 after their heat treat just as SR101 is 52100 after their heat treat.

Joe
 
Any idea of what they modified the formula too? I read SR77 was just a name they called S7 after their heat treat just as SR101 is 52100 after their heat treat.

Joe

I cant speak to the S7 but I can tell you for sure that SR101 is nothing more than 52100 with a Jerry Busse HT on it. I still have yet to figure out why in the world they don't just call it 52100 but then again I am not a marketing guy as that's about the only reason I can think of.
 
Any idea of what they modified the formula too? I read SR77 was just a name they called S7 after their heat treat just as SR101 is 52100 after their heat treat.

Joe

I cant speak to the S7 but I can tell you for sure that SR101 is nothing more than 52100 with a Jerry Busse HT on it. I still have yet to figure out why in the world they don't just call it 52100 but then again I am not a marketing guy as that's about the only reason I can think of.

I can't seem to find the thread where Jerry himself writes in, but insider Cobalt mentions the modifications in this thread: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/512761-INFI-SR77-and-SR101

I seriously doubt much alteration was made, but something supposedly was done beyond just HT. *shrug*
 
IIRC, SR77 is nothing more than S7 with a Jerry Busse heat treat just as SR101 is nothing more than 52100 with a Jerry Busse heat treat. (I use the term "nothing more" with a great deal of respect. To quote Mike Stewart, "Jerry Busse makes some of the toughest knives on the planet". I also read Cobalt's post and that's the first time I've heard that extra Chromium and Carbon were added to SR77 and SR101. To add those elements would require ordering specialty steel or re-smelting it, I assume. The prices of Scrap Yard knives don't seem to reflect that. And to the best of my knowledge, neither Dan nor Jerry have ever admitted that S7 and SR101 were anything other than ordinary S7 and 52100. On the other hand, who am I to argue with Cobalt? :confused: ) Although I don't have Jerry's exact quote, he said that SR77 and INFI had the same level of strength with every other major characteristic (toughness, wear resistance, edge holding, corrosion resistance, etc.) going in favor of INFI . . . as you might expect.

I don't know for sure why Dan moved from SR77 to SR101. The answer could be as simple as they ran out of SR77 in Wauseon. But the move was generally welcomed with open arms. SR101 gives up a little to SR77 in terms of lateral strength. But like INFI, it exceeds SR77 in just about every other major category except perhaps corrosion resistance. In order to keep costs down, all Scrap Yard SR101 blades are through-hardened.

Anyway, back to the point. If the OP is looking for a knife whose most important characteristic is unparalleled lateral strength, S7 would be hard to beat. You can practically twist it in a knot without breaking it.
 
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S7 is a really solid steel, that excels in choppers, where it is capable of very low angle, very thin edges.

[video=youtube;vDnX9bY6CIw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDnX9bY6CIw[/video]

This S7 was heat treated by Peters

At .010 behind the edge and ~17dps it only rolled a little on small diameter. By lowering the edge angle to 10dps (with a true microbevel...one pass per side at a higher angle) the edge thickness increased to .015-.020 and had no issues at all.

Since the edge is table at such a low edge angle it will also have great edge retention. Provided the edge apex remains stable, the easiest ways to improve edge retention on abrasive media isn't to change steels but to lower the edge angle and increase the coarseness of the edge finish.

Depending on how comfortable one feels with sharpening and how much time one likes to put into it and the sharpening methods available, S7 is also very easy to grind and sharpen.

I would take one in either S7 or 3V and be extremely happy as I know Peters Heat Treat is doing both and does an excellent job with both. The only thing I don't like about the S7 version is that the tang isn't skeletonized which is just extra weight to me.
 
I like the feel of the gso 4.1/ sk4
And i like the feel of bark river.
But if 3v is only $30 more over S7 ill probably go that route.
It appears even bark river A2 would be better for what i use my knife for than S7.
I just need it to do bushcraft tasks and game processing, not much chopping. Especially for that size of knife
 
I like the feel of the gso 4.1/ sk4
And i like the feel of bark river.
But if 3v is only $30 more over S7 ill probably go that route.
It appears even bark river A2 would be better for what i use my knife for than S7.
I just need it to do bushcraft tasks and game processing, not much chopping. Especially for that size of knife


Very reasonable reasoning,

...hard to beat a Bark River for serious cutting tasks,

...those babies are slicing machines.




Big Mike
 
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IIRC, SR77 is nothing more than S7 with a Jerry Busse heat treat just as SR101 is nothing more than 52100 with a Jerry Busse heat treat. (I use the term "nothing more" with a great deal of respect. To quote Mike Stewart, "Jerry Busse makes some of the toughest knives on the planet". I also read Cobalt's post and that's the first time I've heard that extra Chromium and Carbon were added to SR77 and SR101. To add those elements would require ordering specialty steel or re-smelting it, I assume. The prices of Scrap Yard knives don't seem to reflect that. And to the best of my knowledge, neither Dan nor Jerry have ever admitted that S7 and SR101 were anything other than ordinary S7 and 52100. On the other hand, who am I to argue with Cobalt? :confused: ) Although I don't have Jerry's exact quote, he said that SR77 and INFI had the same level of strength with every other major characteristic (toughness, wear resistance, edge holding, corrosion resistance, etc.) going in favor of INFI . . . as you might expect.

I don't know for sure why Dan moved from SR77 to SR101. The answer could be as simple as they ran out of SR77 in Wauseon. But the move was generally welcomed with open arms. SR101 gives up a little to SR77 in terms of lateral strength. But like INFI, it exceeds SR77 in just about every other major category except perhaps corrosion resistance. In order to keep costs down, all Scrap Yard SR101 blades are through-hardened.

Anyway, back to the point. If the OP is looking for a knife whose most important characteristic is unparalleled lateral strength, S7 would be hard to beat. You can practically twist it in a knot without breaking it.

This is just my take on it but I would assume they went to SR101 because the SLIGHT toughness advantage SR77 offered was easily offset by the huge gain in edge retention offered by SR101.

However in the end I do believe both of us will be in the same camp of SR101 for a very long time. Few steels can offer what it can for an over all package at least I have yet to find a steel that is better for my uses than SR101.
 
This is just my take on it but I would assume they went to SR101 because the SLIGHT toughness advantage SR77 offered was easily offset by the huge gain in edge retention offered by SR101.

However in the end I do believe both of us will be in the same camp of SR101 for a very long time. Few steels can offer what it can for an over all package at least I have yet to find a steel that is better for my uses than SR101.
It is unusual to find an affordable alloy that has the ability to excel in practically every application from a neck knife to a Wakizashi the way SR101 does. So yes, I'd say you are correct in your assessment that we'll both be in the SR101 camp for a very long time.
 
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Can the average Joe tell the diff between BR A2 and Survive S7 or 3V? Would it matter to him? I mean the guy that posts on here and says, how do you use a strop?
 
While it's true that most of our favorite "knife steels" (A2, D2, O1, 10xx, 51xxx, the various CPM stuff, etc etc) were never designed or intended for use in knife blades, that's especially true of the S-series alloys. All those others were specifically developed for tools that cut miles of wood and steel and other fun stuff day after day after day.

S7 is meant to be used in power-hammers, not to cut. Think about that for a minute.
 
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Can the average Joe tell the diff between BR A2 and Survive S7 or 3V? Would it matter to him? I mean the guy that posts on here and says, how do you use a strop?

true i may not notice, I just want the best steel for my money. I watched gideonstactical review and he seems to like S7, are those that are against it tried it?
 
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