TENNIS ELBOW!!!!!! HELP!!!!!!

Joined
Mar 9, 2000
Messages
118
I'm sure most knifemakers have to deal with
"KNIFE MAKING INJURIES" such as TENNIS ELBOW
or GOLFERS ELBOW!!
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I've got it bad!!!!
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What do you do to deal with the pain, and orders that have to be filled?????

Any insight would help!!

Thanks

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www.ckg.org/Frigault/Frigault.htm

rfrigault@home.com

Rick Frigault Canadian Custom Knifemaker
 
If you are having numbness in the thumb and the first two and 1/2 fingers of the hand on the affected side go to the doctor and ask about carpel tunnel syndrome. He will probably suggest a wrist brace to be worn when you are not working, should help break the pattern of the pain. The alternative is surgery, pain goes away immediately and you can be grinding again in a couple of days.

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george
www.tichbourneknives.com
sales@tichbourneknives.com


 
Work out!!!
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Keeping strength and flexibility throughout your body is key in not experiencing pain like this.

As George said, there's a chance it's carpel tunnel. It's most likely just some minor tendonitis.

Fellow knifemakers would be amazed at how much better they would feel out in their shops if they would take better care of their bodies.

Just learning some basic stretches will allow you to stay more comfortable while working. Most guys joke about their "organic tool rest" but they don't seem to realize that that's anywhere from 10 to 45 lb. of DEAD WEIGHT pulling down on their bodies and distorting their backs.

Let me give you an example of a simple stretch that will make you feel better.

While sitting upright on a chair, you probably are right now at your pc...

Place you left hand on your left knee, now with your right hand, reach up and place it on the left side of your head. Pull gently toward your right shoulder and hold this position for 15 seconds. Switch sides, repeat 5 times for each side.

So many people think that working out is all about vanity...it's about how you feel!

Just had to rant about it here for once
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Nick (I.S.S.A certified personal trainer)
 
working out is not going to make you any money!! When I used to make surfboards I picked up and put down a big milwaukee grinder 100 times every day and had the sorest elbow imaginable......get one of those elbow braces......especially the ones that have the bump so you can put it right on the sore muscle.....they work charms.
 
For tendonitis take an anti-inflamtory like ibuprofen every day. It'll also help to mitigate the pain. Occasional doses do not work like regular doses do; the effect is cumulative. Also, rub the soreness with Tiger Balm, a stinky and staining sports balm sold in health food stores, and wrap -lightly- with an elastic bandage at night. Tiger Balm will stain whatever fabric it comes into contact with, so keep that in mind. It works best for muscle pain, don't really know why it would make a difference for tendons, but it seems to have for me. I think all it really does in increase blood flow to the area it's applied to. But it's magic to me. Just my .02.

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Dave Larsen
--
The severity of the itch is proportional to the reach.
-Steven Wright
 
Had it. Got rid of it. It took over a year to get rid of it completely. That included physical therapy (go to a physical therapist), ibuprofen regimen, and you can get one of those elbow braces Tom was talking about. It has a little air pillow in there and the idea is to relieve the pressure between the bone and nerve at the elbow. But be careful how you use it. Overuse it and it can damage nerves. I would consult a specialist. One other thing: lots of rest. Don't overwork the elbow but do do the physical therapy. If you don't, it could get worse and take longer to heal. Mine came from lots of competitive archery, and I had to stop shooting.


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Hoodoo

I get some pleasure from finding a relentlessly peaceful use for a combative looking knife.
JKM
 
Had it. Got rid of it. It took over a year to get rid of it completely. That included physical therapy (go to a physical therapist), ibuprofen regimen, and you can get one of those elbow braces Tom was talking about. It has a little air pillow in there and the idea is to relieve the pressure between the bone and nerve at the elbow. But be careful how you use it. Overuse it and it can damage nerves. I would consult a specialist. One other thing: lots of rest. Don't overwork the elbow but do do the physical therapy. If you don't, it could get worse and take longer to heal. Mine came from lots of competitive archery, and I had to stop shooting.

Oh yeah, one other thing (and this is what seemed to have the greatest effect for me). The physical therapist smeared cortisone on my arm and worked it in using an electric shock thingy (can't remember what it was called) that facillitates the movement of the drug into the tissues. I had it three times and the results were outstanding.

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Hoodoo

I get some pleasure from finding a relentlessly peaceful use for a combative looking knife.
JKM
 
Ultrasound, Hoodoo? A little knobby thing they rub over the area that gets warm/hot anf vibrates a little?
 
a long shot that might work,a visit to an osteopath.Sometimes pain in the arms,hands,joints etc.,can be caused by pinched nerves in neck/upper back.Knifemaking is hard on that area,and a good bone cruncher might help.It does for me,although mine is so bad now that i'm awaiting neck surgery.

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MJH
 
Hi Rick
I had it from tennis, I had it from raquetball, I had it from swinging a framing hammer.
I finally bought one of the adjustable-length pressure cuffs. It is a little band about two inches wide with a solid plastic piece and a velcro closure.
If I put it one [it will fit right under a shirt] BEFORE doing anything that puts pressure on the elbow the pain never comes. The band puts enough pressure on the muscle just below the elbow to spread the impact shock completely through the muscle and not just on the joint. You can feel the difference with the first impact- you don't get the shock straight into your elbow any more.
It works for me-nothing else ever did. You might consider giving this a try, I think they cost maybe all of 8 or 9 dollars.

Dave Evans
Tenino, WA
 
OK, gotta chime in guys. A few things:

1) Taking ibuprofen every day is a terrible idea for several reasons. One is that you are masking pain, which is a natural signal from your body to knock off whatever activity is casuing the pain in the first place. Sure, you'll be able to keep working, but you'll also continue to injure yourself and that's not smart.

2) Carpal tunnel syndrome surgery is rarely successful. By cutting the ligament that maintains the carpal tunnel it collapses and puts pressure on the median nerve again, so then they shave some bone, then they remove a carpal or two, etc etc. I have never had a patient that had the surgery that said they were glad they did it.

3) You are suffering from a repetitive use injury. The only way to improve it is to stop the activity causing it. That isn't always practical, so my advice would be to change the ergonomics of your tool setups, learn some stretches, get that brace, work only until the pain begins, then stop, avoid painkillers, and look into having your neck, elbow and shoulder alignment checked out by a chiropractor.

PS- this advice is not treatment nor whould it be considered that way. If you want to know what the real problem is, seek the care of a doctor who can perform a proper physical assessment.

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Steve Agocs, D.C.
http://www.geocities.com/Chiro75/frames.html


agocs_s@hotmail.com
 
Hey Rick..

Damn,,you still in pain Eh !!

Geez that was 2-3 weeks ago I talked to you...

You'd better get that looked at,,Not like anyone hasn't told you that before...

Look into trying that Zostrix ointment,, and ease off the workload my friend!!

You ain't gonna be any good to your customers if you aren't making blades,,so stay away from the grinder for awhile and let that heal up...

You may also want to do what Chiro said about looking at your shop and tools..

A little adjustment may be in order and ease things a little...

If you do insist on working,,when it starts to hurt say Phuck it and take it easy...

Let it heal up before you do serious damage...

Ask Nancy about her arms next time we talk...
She Buggered them up building Golie pads for Brian's....

Say Hi to Rosie..
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ttyle

Eric...


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On/Scene Tactical
Leading The Way In Quality Synthetic Sheathing
 
CHIRO is just plain wrong!

Tennis elbow is an inflammatory condition. Stress causes micro-tears at the junction between the muscle and bone. What causes the pain to persist is that your body while trying to heal this injury produces inflammation.Because of repeated stress during the healing phase your body continues the inflammation.

Ibuprofen is not only a pain reliever it is also an ANTI-INFLAMMATORY agent. So if you reduce the abnormal inflammation it not only reduces pain but aids in your bodies attempt to heal. But even though it's available over the counter , ibuprofen is a medicine and should be treated with respect---don't overdo it ----you can O.D. on the stuff.

Also carpal tunnel is a different process altogether and there are good treatments that don't involve surgery--anti-inflammatories,night time bracing,stretching,etc. But if nothing else works, surgery has a GREAT success rate (95% excellent results in the medical literature). And surgical techniques improve every year.

One thing he is right about is stretching and exercise are very important in recovery from tennis elbow. Anti-inflammatories,stretching,exercises,and tennis elbow straps are great first steps in treating tennis elbow but it's tough to beat and tends to come back.

Sorry ----I'll get off my soapbox now. Don't want my day job to interfere with my hobby.
(Orthopedic Surgeon)
 
heard this story about some BAD A%% football player who broke his little finger in the biggest game of the year and the team doctor said he had to stop......so the story I heard was he bit it off.....and kept playing! theres a solution for every problem, although not always the one you want to hear!!!!!!!!!!!
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You're right Tom, you don't get paid to work out (well I do...) But I bet you all must make lots of money in the time that you spend in pain, not able to work, and bitching about the pain.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Your body is the only thing in this world that you HAVE to take care of.

I have worked with everyone from your fat middle aged woman, to your pro-ball pitcher with a torn rotator cuff. The consensus of them all....you can't afford not to work out and take care of things.

Ibuprofen is an anti-inflammatory and will help, but as said, it is a drug and must be used in moderation. There are many supplements that will do wonders for your joint status, such as JSF (joint support formula) from Champion Nutrition. I don't know anyone that has used this that didn't have a nearly immediate (one to two weeks) relief. This isn't a band-aid that masks the pain, it helps to keep the tissue at your joints healthy.

Our bodies fall apart from overuse in small areas and underuse in the big picture.

My two cents, ice it at night for 15 minutes at a time, start using JSF, and work on keeping it stretched and flexible, don't over-use it (but don't think you have to leave it alone forever).

Nick
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Taz:
Ultrasound, Hoodoo? A little knobby thing they rub over the area that gets warm/hot anf vibrates a little?</font>

Taz, I don't think it's ultrasound. It's actually electrical shocks that tingle.

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Hoodoo

I get some pleasure from finding a relentlessly peaceful use for a combative looking knife.
JKM
 
Zostrix, Chiropractor, Pressure cuffs, Ibuprofin, Heat treatments, Ice treatments, and Manipulating pressure points in my forearms, Cracking the joints of your two little fingers will all help. Did it all.
I ground out over 500 swords in two years for A.G. Russell and had a severe case in both elbows. Ultimately I had to learn not to try to do all my grinding in one day and learn to rest! Tendonitis is a slow healer especially if you continue to work, and who has a choice? When you get to feeling better don't get "cockey" it will come back more severe, and I don't believe you ever totally get rid of it. I feel like I'm getting ready for a Title Fight when I dress up to grind. I tape up my wrists, tape up my forearms, and wear a backbrace.By all means do not view this as a "no pain no gain" situation, it will get worse. There is alot of good advise in this thread and I would advise you to try anything before surgery for Carpel Tunnel Syndrome. I haven't known any knife makers with this problem, but I have known more than a few with "Knife Makers Elbow.

In there "slugging" with you!

Ted

 
Originally posted by cyberdoc:


Tennis elbow is an inflammatory condition. Stress causes micro-tears at the junction between the muscle and bone.


That is an accurate description of tennis elbow. Despite it being an inflammatory condition, it is also one that will not go away if the injury causing it persists.


Ibuprofen is not only a pain reliever it is also an ANTI-INFLAMMATORY agent. So if you reduce the abnormal inflammation it not only reduces pain but aids in your bodies attempt to heal.


But, of course, you and I both know what really happens. Patient takes ibuprofen, feels less pain, and works as hard if not harder than they did before. This causes increased stress to the joint which results in worse pain, more ibuprofen, etc etc. Most patients will not stop the activity causing the injury in the first place, and so the anti-inflammatory aspect of ibuprofen is minimized. If you were to stop/limit the activity and take ibuprofen if necessary, then that's one thing, but to mask the pain so you can keep doing the activity causing the pain is only going to make it worse.

But if nothing else works, surgery has a GREAT success rate (95% excellent results in the medical literature). And surgical techniques improve every year.

I guess the folks I've talked to have all been on the short end of the stick, then. I suppose the results of studies could be skewed by when the post-op follow-up was conducted. A lot of patients experience good results at first, maybe even for a couple years, but then the complaints start up again. Of course, your typical MD won't say that there are alternatives to the standard medical procedures, too, but I guess one comments on what they have experience with.

Thanks for the input...of course, we both are assuming that this is tennis elbow, which is quite a stretch (no pun intended) since neither of us have examined the guy!
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Anyway, my advice is always to go from least invasive to most invasive. Also, I'll reiterate my original point: if you are going to take the ibuprofen so that it reduces your pain and you can continue to work (in other words, puch that elbow past its limit), then you are doing yourself a big disservice. The best way to get rid of an overuse injury like yours is to limit the activity as much as possible. Otherwise you may eventually find yourself unable to make knives or do much else with that elbow. It's tough to do when it's your hobby or way of life, but also your tools may be set up all wrong and a lot of the problem could be corrected with an ergonomic setup. Just my 2 cents.

Steve Agocs
Doctor of Chiropractic



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Steve Agocs, D.C.
http://www.geocities.com/Chiro75/frames.html


agocs_s@hotmail.com
 
I've been to the Doc!
I've got both tennis and golfers elbow!!
Doc said ice, rub, physio, "Arthrotec 50"
and a neopreen sleeve support.

Did it, done it, bought the tee shirt, still got it.

George - I had CTS, didn't get the surgery,
but I went to a ciropractor!

Doc didn't like it! But it was gone in 4 visits!!

Tom - Tried the elbow brace with the lump
thingy, didn't work!

ddavelarsn - I'll give the Tiger Balm a try
Can you get this anywhere?

Normark- Eric Where can you get this ZOSTROX
OINTMENT?

MIHKNIVES- I will give the bone cruncher
a call!! He fixed my CTS!

Chiro - I here you!!! REST IT! REST IT!
REST IT! I'll try!

How can you change the way you grind???
It's like, trying to write with your opposite hand!
What can I do to make my shop or tools more "ERGONOMICLY" friendly?


I must say, there is a lot of ideas to be able to get "some" knives made!

Thanks for insight!!
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------------------
www.ckg.org/Frigault/Frigault.htm

rfrigault@home.com

Rick Frigault Canadian Custom Knifemaker

[This message has been edited by Rick Frigault (edited 02-09-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Rick Frigault (edited 02-09-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Rick Frigault (edited 02-09-2001).]
 
What kind of a brace did you try? I've had some friends use one put out by a company called professionals choice. They focus on products for horses like leg wraps that give support for different events and offer protection to different parts of the leg.But their braces for people seem to be pretty good too. Their website is here.

As for your work setup. Take a lok at how your standing when you grind etc. Is there any way you could rest your elbows on something while your doing stuff? You can't change everything but if you can make some of the jobs easier it will help. Make sure your not having to reach out too far, bend down, or stand in any awkward positions at any of your machines.

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I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer... but I've got the sharpest knife in the room.
 
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