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Terminology for convex edges?
- Thread starter EdgePal
- Start date
:thumbup: Cliff Stamp
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 5, 1998
- Messages
- 17,562
Cliff,
The tools you show in the picture is two (of three) tools that build up the EdgePal Sharpening System, the tools name is: Knife and AxePal. Knife is a handle clamp. You clamp the handle of the knife and then you can grind all sides of the blade, the edge, the sides and the neck. All types of blade forms in any sharpening angle you like to have- straight, convex and recurved up to 45 cm in length.
AxePal with its magnetic foot (7 kilo pressure) gives you the sharpening angle.
The tool Edge (the third tool in the Sharpening System) can be used for the same thing on parallel knife blades. On that tool you can turn the magnetic foot tool (AxePal) up side down and screw it in to the tool Edge if you like to do so.
The tool Edge is very advanced as I think you have seen on my homepage. Edge has many, very special, functions.
AxePal is for axe sharpening; any axe, any size of axe, and any shape of axe can be sharpened with straight, convex and recurved edge in any sharpening angle wanted.
Then, you can combine the three tools - in hundreds of ways
I have not find any tool (yet) that this system cannot sharpen. Believe me, I have been tested with hundreds of edged tools during three years on fairs and exhibitions all around Scandinavia.
Everything from a razorblade up to a machete can be sharpened in any wanted sharpening angle with straight, convex or recurved edge.
One thing is rather new and not shown yet on the homepage, the system also sharpens all recurved edges with free sharpening angle. The English side of my homepage is not updated yet, look at pictures on the Swedish side. It soon shows how recurved edges can be sharpened.
If you like to remember a sharpening angle, just cut a straw in right length and put it on the tool AxePal under the bar and another straw under the loop down to the bar, then the sharpening angle is fixed if you remember where the magnetic foot shall be placed
I have a new sharpening tool, just for parallel knife blades, the name is: EdgePal Basic Hunter. Basic Hunter sharpens straight, convex and recurved edges with free angles. Look at the tool EdgePal Basic, it is similar in design of Basic Hunter. (It named Hunter because it is constructed to sharpen EKA belly opener, a new type of belly opener how cuts inside and out (no hair in the food). Look at www.ekaknivar.se click hunting.
That type of belly opener is very recurved and the sharpening angle is very steep.
I have made a solution for this type of edge and that solution is also now in the Sharpening System. It fits all recurved edges.
I have also fixed sharpening angle screws for them who like to have fixed sharpening angles.
(If you take the tool Knife and combine it with the tool Edge (se picture on the home page, 1 side, second row, first picture) you can use the screw holes as fixed sharpening angles when you sharpen parallel knife blades, straight, convex and recurved edges.)
If you study my sharpening tools I think you find out that nothing is impossible for the EdgePal Sharpening System only one thing cant be grinded and that is hollow edges but we are working on that, we have a solution and we are working at making it easy to use.
Then, of cause, the limit is your fantasy
Well, I am not here to talk about my sharpening tools. The issue is how to be able to communicate convex edges. I have made it possible with my sharpening tools it is a technical way, but that is not an off. All people need to be able to communicate convex edges in a simple way.
Ads I say above, I cant follow you guys, my English is limited. I think we are on the right track, it is simple, it do not need any advanced tools to measure the convex edge, and I think it is simple to understand for them who really like to know and understand how convex edges work. This is a base to stand on with both feets and a base for developing better convex edges in the future.
How to measure convex edges in a simple way? Cliff, you talk about a caliper, what is a caliper? I have try to find it out with my dictionary but failed
If we can agree on the method, how shall we perform the measurement?
One problem is also to be solved. I think (and I hope that I think wrongly) that the producers of knifes with convex edges do not like them to be measured.
When the user can measure them, they also is able to make demands on the convex sharpening angles
That is also a step we must be able to take. How can we convince the knife producers of convex edges to tell their Byers witch sharpening angle it is on the knife they by?
I send the EdgePal Sharpening System to a such company. They have the system for 14 month and they did not even test the system during that time. I think that tells a lot of how the producers really think about their customers (and what they produce).
Just by it, do not ask anything about what you by
Then, how to get the customers to understand that convex edges function exactly as straight edges with sharpening angles? They seam to be happy when the edge is sharp and when they can sharpen it on a mouse pad or something.
I think they do not understands that when they have sharpen a knife an off times on a mouse pad, the sharpening angle changes and the knife will no longer performs as is use to do? Well, they send it away for sharpening back to the factory that produce it, pay money for the sharpening and be happy again. They will never accept to do that with a knife with a straight edge Or?
The factory is happy because they do not only sell a knife; they also sell a lot of sharpening of the knife in the future Nice business!
As long that the factory sharpen their knifes, no development will start on convex edges. We stand still on the spot where we are today.
The factorys who produce knifes with convex edges do not know what sharpening angle they produce on their knifes because there is not , so far, any way invented to measure convex edges. There are not any machines who can produce convex edges, they are made by hand. That means that no convex edge is the same. They are all different. Sharp, yes, but different.
Two customers can by the same type of knife but they have two different sharpening angles on them and when they talk about how sharp the knifes are, they think they talk about the same thing but they do not.
No one will by a car without knowing statistic about the engine. But they by knifes without knowing the sharpening angle. For me, that is strange.
If people do not care about the engine in a car, we still have been on 30 horsepower level because that is easy to produce
Thomas
The tools you show in the picture is two (of three) tools that build up the EdgePal Sharpening System, the tools name is: Knife and AxePal. Knife is a handle clamp. You clamp the handle of the knife and then you can grind all sides of the blade, the edge, the sides and the neck. All types of blade forms in any sharpening angle you like to have- straight, convex and recurved up to 45 cm in length.
AxePal with its magnetic foot (7 kilo pressure) gives you the sharpening angle.
The tool Edge (the third tool in the Sharpening System) can be used for the same thing on parallel knife blades. On that tool you can turn the magnetic foot tool (AxePal) up side down and screw it in to the tool Edge if you like to do so.
The tool Edge is very advanced as I think you have seen on my homepage. Edge has many, very special, functions.
AxePal is for axe sharpening; any axe, any size of axe, and any shape of axe can be sharpened with straight, convex and recurved edge in any sharpening angle wanted.
Then, you can combine the three tools - in hundreds of ways
I have not find any tool (yet) that this system cannot sharpen. Believe me, I have been tested with hundreds of edged tools during three years on fairs and exhibitions all around Scandinavia.
Everything from a razorblade up to a machete can be sharpened in any wanted sharpening angle with straight, convex or recurved edge.
One thing is rather new and not shown yet on the homepage, the system also sharpens all recurved edges with free sharpening angle. The English side of my homepage is not updated yet, look at pictures on the Swedish side. It soon shows how recurved edges can be sharpened.
If you like to remember a sharpening angle, just cut a straw in right length and put it on the tool AxePal under the bar and another straw under the loop down to the bar, then the sharpening angle is fixed if you remember where the magnetic foot shall be placed
I have a new sharpening tool, just for parallel knife blades, the name is: EdgePal Basic Hunter. Basic Hunter sharpens straight, convex and recurved edges with free angles. Look at the tool EdgePal Basic, it is similar in design of Basic Hunter. (It named Hunter because it is constructed to sharpen EKA belly opener, a new type of belly opener how cuts inside and out (no hair in the food). Look at www.ekaknivar.se click hunting.
That type of belly opener is very recurved and the sharpening angle is very steep.
I have made a solution for this type of edge and that solution is also now in the Sharpening System. It fits all recurved edges.
I have also fixed sharpening angle screws for them who like to have fixed sharpening angles.
(If you take the tool Knife and combine it with the tool Edge (se picture on the home page, 1 side, second row, first picture) you can use the screw holes as fixed sharpening angles when you sharpen parallel knife blades, straight, convex and recurved edges.)
If you study my sharpening tools I think you find out that nothing is impossible for the EdgePal Sharpening System only one thing cant be grinded and that is hollow edges but we are working on that, we have a solution and we are working at making it easy to use.
Then, of cause, the limit is your fantasy
Well, I am not here to talk about my sharpening tools. The issue is how to be able to communicate convex edges. I have made it possible with my sharpening tools it is a technical way, but that is not an off. All people need to be able to communicate convex edges in a simple way.
Ads I say above, I cant follow you guys, my English is limited. I think we are on the right track, it is simple, it do not need any advanced tools to measure the convex edge, and I think it is simple to understand for them who really like to know and understand how convex edges work. This is a base to stand on with both feets and a base for developing better convex edges in the future.
How to measure convex edges in a simple way? Cliff, you talk about a caliper, what is a caliper? I have try to find it out with my dictionary but failed
If we can agree on the method, how shall we perform the measurement?
One problem is also to be solved. I think (and I hope that I think wrongly) that the producers of knifes with convex edges do not like them to be measured.
When the user can measure them, they also is able to make demands on the convex sharpening angles
That is also a step we must be able to take. How can we convince the knife producers of convex edges to tell their Byers witch sharpening angle it is on the knife they by?
I send the EdgePal Sharpening System to a such company. They have the system for 14 month and they did not even test the system during that time. I think that tells a lot of how the producers really think about their customers (and what they produce).
Just by it, do not ask anything about what you by
Then, how to get the customers to understand that convex edges function exactly as straight edges with sharpening angles? They seam to be happy when the edge is sharp and when they can sharpen it on a mouse pad or something.
I think they do not understands that when they have sharpen a knife an off times on a mouse pad, the sharpening angle changes and the knife will no longer performs as is use to do? Well, they send it away for sharpening back to the factory that produce it, pay money for the sharpening and be happy again. They will never accept to do that with a knife with a straight edge Or?
The factory is happy because they do not only sell a knife; they also sell a lot of sharpening of the knife in the future Nice business!
As long that the factory sharpen their knifes, no development will start on convex edges. We stand still on the spot where we are today.
The factorys who produce knifes with convex edges do not know what sharpening angle they produce on their knifes because there is not , so far, any way invented to measure convex edges. There are not any machines who can produce convex edges, they are made by hand. That means that no convex edge is the same. They are all different. Sharp, yes, but different.
Two customers can by the same type of knife but they have two different sharpening angles on them and when they talk about how sharp the knifes are, they think they talk about the same thing but they do not.
No one will by a car without knowing statistic about the engine. But they by knifes without knowing the sharpening angle. For me, that is strange.
If people do not care about the engine in a car, we still have been on 30 horsepower level because that is easy to produce
Thomas
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 5, 1998
- Messages
- 17,562
EdgePal said:
http://www.glue-it.com/model-engineering/general-information/glossary/v_summ.htm
You can buy these on Ebay for next to nothing, usually you just pay shipping.
Good luck, that information isn't even consistent on v-ground bevels. It will come as more people demand it.
There is a massive amount of hype about convex edges. The first thing is to make it common knowledge that it is the cross section which is doing the cutting and not the curvature. I would love to see people start talking about them in a more definate manner because any information eliminates hype.
There are few details, Fallkniven noted when I asked awhile ago that they experimented with different curvatures and this was the only time I have even seen a maker/manufacturer even admit that the way you ground a convex blade made a difference. Most will just say in a very vague manner about "convexing" a blade with no details on curvature. As in "Yeah, that knife didn't cut very well so I convexed it."
In contrast if you ask someone like Wilson about the same issue he will say something like "Yes, the edge was too thick to cut well I reground the primary and reduced the edge from 0.025 to 0.005" and sharpened at 10-15 degrees on a norton silicon carbide stone. It easily cuts 100 pieces of one inch hemp on newsprint now without exceeding 20 lbs on a draw."
This is actually a big problem with v-ground bevels as well. Most production knives are not jig sharpened and thus the angle and edge thickness can vary significantly. This is one of the reasons why you hear conflicting reports on knives because two people can end up using very different knives even though they are the same type. This is why I have been promoting the idea of specifying edge geometry for a long time now as it would eliminate a lot of the conflicting reports. If more manufacturers would specify the edge geometry that they are aiming for then people would also know if they are seeing the expected performance as well.
-Cliff
dantzk8
Basic Member
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2005
- Messages
- 1,932
Cliff Stamp said:
I didn't wait for any hype to convex edges and it seems to me obvious the cutting ability comes from the cross section. The curvature is only there in my opinion to shoulder the edge (for edge retention) and to give fluidity to the blade penetration. The empirical observations of my axes, one for chopping with a narrow section, one for splitting with a larger section have leaded me to convex somes knives edges but never by the same way (slicer,scraper,choper,splitter). Somes well made knives as is the Fallkniven F1 can however be excellent in every task.
Thanks for this thread.
dantzk.
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 5, 1998
- Messages
- 17,562
dantzk8 said:
Yes, and if this perspective was more common there would be far less confusion. Convex edges were usually regarded for durability because convexing an edge meant to increase the edge apex angle to give it strength. Currently it is generally promoted for enhancing cutting ability because people are commonly applying relief grinds, reducing the edge shoulder usually with a slack belt reprofile.
-Cliff