Terminology, Perception, and Reality

It's great that his 350 withstood the abuse he gave it, however using it as a screwdriver is total abuse and disrespecting the intended use as a cutting instrument. I also have a farm and usually cut wire with a wire cutter unless very light wire. As far as using it to remove mud from the skid steer I can think of better tools designed for that task. The description that you posted I seriously doubt ZT would warranty that abuse if it failed.As a knife enthusiast nothing sickens me more than to see the tip off a knife broken off because it was used as a pry instrument or a screwdriver. I do use my knives hard, but only for what they were designed for, cutting.
 
Final Option said:
It's great that his 350 withstood the abuse he gave it, however using it as a screwdriver is total abuse and disrespecting the intended use as a cutting instrument. I also have a farm and usually cut wire with a wire cutter unless very light wire. As far as using it to remove mud from the skid steer I can think of better tools designed for that task. The description that you posted I seriously doubt ZT would warranty that abuse if it failed.As a knife enthusiast nothing sickens me more than to see the tip off a knife broken off because it was used as a pry instrument or a screwdriver. I do use my knives hard, but only for what they were designed for, cutting.
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I agree with the statement above. I think there is a point at which hard use becomes abuse. Whenever you go from cutting to using it for a screw driver or a pry bar I think you cross the line into abuse.
 
Final Option said:
It's great that his 350 withstood the abuse he gave it, however using it as a screwdriver is total abuse and disrespecting the intended use as a cutting instrument. I also have a farm and usually cut wire with a wire cutter unless very light wire. As far as using it to remove mud from the skid steer I can think of better tools designed for that task. The description that you posted I seriously doubt ZT would warranty that abuse if it failed.As a knife enthusiast nothing sickens me more than to see the tip off a knife broken off because it was used as a pry instrument or a screwdriver. I do use my knives hard, but only for what they were designed for, cutting.
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I understand where you're coming from, but you can't knock him for doing what he does. He paid for the knife. Also, I think this is kind of what jimmer is getting at with this thread. We all have different definitions of "hard use". For me, when I'm at work my knives usually do light work for the majority. Paper, tape, plastic, zipties, opening packages, cutting rope, food prep, etc. Also for a last ditch self-defense weapon. When I'm home my knives seem to see alot more of the "hard use". I cut anything and everything it can cut, except metal. Also, I do use my knife as a "wedge" sort of deal sometimes, and very light prying. Usually only if the object itself is smaller than the knife. I am a knife enthusiast aswell, so I do know to respect the knife. I don't use mine for a screwdriver, a prybar, or anything that the tool actually isn't. I do however, use it for absolutely anything I know for sure it can handle. No questions asked.
 
Perception vs Reality??

I have just ordered a ZT knife... ...I'm not sure why, I guess to see what all the hub bub is about. I ordered a 0200 which should be here Tuesday. I like that it's a 4" blade, I like that it's a big knife, I'm concerned that it weighs nearly half a pound.

I think that ZT is all about the perception of strength. Big, heavy knives with thick wide blades, thick liners, etc. I've looked at ZT knives a few times but never really found a model that appeals to me. I like the look of the 0550 but find the price a little more than I'm willing to spend. I decided to try the 0200 based on a decent price, good steel, and it looks like a good solid knife and if nothing else I'll throw it in the car. I guess If I end up loving the 0200 I'd consider a 0550 or future ZT model (don't care for the 0560). I like the 0550 size, design, and weight (though it's borderline too heavy for me). I'd like to see more knives of this size/style.

To me strength is more than a heavy knife. Is a Spyderco Military, which I carry daily, as strong as my future 0200? Sure, you can flex the handle on the Military, people will talk about the tip being fragile, the liner lock is thinner than the 0200 but it's a 4" blade and weighs just over 4 ounces (just over half the weight of the 0200). If you want to talk about "Reality" then the Military is plenty strong for what I'll use it for and probably over built for a purely defensive tool. To me strength is engineering... ...a knife that is light weight and up to the task. Anyone could overbuild a indestructible folder that weighs 42 pounds. I guess that's why I've been carrying a Spyderco Military or Paramilitary2 lately.

Anyway, that's it. I really like my Kershaw Blur and so I've decided to try a ZT. I'd be interested in ZT knives that were more traditional blade shapes and lighter weight... ...something Blur sized with G-10 handles and s30v. I won't carry the 0200 as a EDC knife but I may replace the Military with it for work. My poor Blur, though not built as heavy duty as ZT knives, has taken some hard use partly because it's cheap enough to abuse.

On my wish list, I'd like to see a glass breaker on a ZT knife but without turning it into a blunt "Rescue Blur" type blade.
 
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...and another thing:

So the 0200 arrived Tuesday night (and left Wednesday morning), I'm going to list my initial impressions of it.

1) First of all, If you want to talk about "Perception", the 0200 is a beast out of the box. Big, heavy, locks open with an authoritative thwack, decent grip.

2) It was very sharp, nearly Spyderco sharp.

3) I still think it's a decent value.


Now the bad:

1) It's heavy... ...some will say that it seems much lighter than the 7.7 ounce spec would suggest. I say 7.7 ounces is 7.7 ounces, it's heavy.

2) I didn't think I would be a fan of the flipper. I figured the 0200 would be a good one to try because while it has a flipper it also has functional thumb studs. In the end I didn't care for the flipper.

3) The 0200 has a thick blade which leaves a wide space between the liners, when closed the tip of the blade is less than 1/16" inside the handle. With the wide space you can cut yourself on the tip of the blade with the knife closed.

4) The handle is not as comfortable (or as grippy) as it looks.

5) Now we're getting to the deal breakers and the 2 reasons I returned the knife... Off center blade!! It's the reason I've given up on Benchmade (until recently). The blade was not touching the liner but it was pretty far off center, this is unacceptable to me.

6) I could have lived with the blade but the pocket clip was the straw that broke the camel's back. The combination of a stiff, short clip and heavily textured scales made the knife nearly impossible to clip on a pocket. I did manage, with some effort, to clip it into a jeans pocket (it would shred jeans quickly) but I couldn't get it to slide onto a BDU pocket at all. If this knife were perfect in every other way then I'd modify it to work... ...probably by taking off the clip and making a smooth spot on the G-10 but unfortunately the knife isn't perfect and the clip was the last exasperating flaw.

So you there you go, perception vs reality as I see it. I almost liked the 0200 and I can see why people like this type of knife.

The other reason I sent the knife back is that I think the 0550 would be the better choice for me. The clip on the titanium side shouldn't be as much of a pants shredder, it's lighter but still a way heavy duty knife, no flipper, a bit shorter blade but I'm okay with that. Too bad they're still hard to find but that will give me some time to add to the new knife fund.
 
ElConquistador said:
...and another thing:

So the 0200 arrived Tuesday night (and left Wednesday morning), I'm going to list my initial impressions of it.

1) First of all, If you want to talk about "Perception", the 0200 is a beast out of the box. Big, heavy, locks open with an authoritative thwack, decent grip.


2) It was very sharp, nearly Spyderco sharp.

3) I still think it's a decent value.


Now the bad:

1) It's heavy... ...some will say that it seems much lighter than the 7.7 ounce spec would suggest. I say 7.7 ounces is 7.7 ounces, it's heavy.

2) I didn't think I would be a fan of the flipper. I figured the 0200 would be a good one to try because while it has a flipper it also has functional thumb studs. In the end I didn't care for the flipper.

3) The 0200 has a thick blade which leaves a wide space between the liners, when closed the tip of the blade is less than 1/16" inside the handle. With the wide space you can cut yourself on the tip of the blade with the knife closed.

4) The handle is not as comfortable (or as grippy) as it looks.

5) Now we're getting to the deal breakers and the 2 reasons I returned the knife... Off center blade!! It's the reason I've given up on Benchmade (until recently). The blade was not touching the liner but it was pretty far off center, this is unacceptable to me.

6) I could have lived with the blade but the pocket clip was the straw that broke the camel's back. The combination of a stiff, short clip and heavily textured scales made the knife nearly impossible to clip on a pocket. I did manage, with some effort, to clip it into a jeans pocket (it would shred jeans quickly) but I couldn't get it to slide onto a BDU pocket at all. If this knife were perfect in every other way then I'd modify it to work... ...probably by taking off the clip and making a smooth spot on the G-10 but unfortunately the knife isn't perfect and the clip was the last exasperating flaw.

So you there you go, perception vs reality as I see it. I almost liked the 0200 and I can see why people like this type of knife.

The other reason I sent the knife back is that I think the 0550 would be the better choice for me. The clip on the titanium side shouldn't be as much of a pants shredder, it's lighter but still a way heavy duty knife, no flipper, a bit shorter blade but I'm okay with that. Too bad they're still hard to find but that will give me some time to add to the new knife fund.
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Does that mean you dont think the knife is a hard use knife? I have a 200 and its a very tough knife that I think would perform well under hard use.
 
ElConquistador said:
The other reason I sent the knife back is that I think the 0550 would be the better choice for me. Too bad they're still hard to find but that will give me some time to add to the new knife fund.
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Hard to find??? 0550's are available at nearly every ZT dealer.
 
I live in civilization for the most part. My knives usually don't get the worst treatment. Paper, cardboard, and the occasional zombie maurauding the neighborhood. The 551 will save bullets you see. My knives are not so much for what I do cut but for what I may have to cut in a bad situation. Seat belts, attackers, gun retention.
My CR Sebenza has scrapes and scratches all over the blade. it is a work knife in design and I beat it pretty good with stellar results.
I want to see how the ZT handles that.
 
mley1 said:
Does that mean you dont think the knife is a hard use knife? I have a 200 and its a very tough knife that I think would perform well under hard use.
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...I don't know how you got this impression but it kind of brings us back to the original topic of this thread.

First of all you say "Hard Use Knife". This seems to be a new catch phase, I'm not sure what it means. What makes a knife "Hard Use"... ...what is "Hard Use"??

Then you say "I think this would perform well under hard use". What makes you think that? Is it the size? Weight? Blade thickness/design? What is this knife going to be better at than another good 4" folder... ...say a Sypderco Endura, Benchmade 710 or Griptilian, etc.

It's all about "Perception", or what you "Think" the knife will be good for. "Terminology", making you think that you need a "Hard Use" knife for opening your mail. "Reality", the reality is that we buy this kind of stuff because it's cool and because we can. We can live without $300 overbuilt knives, it's all just marketing and creating a perceived need for a product. If you want to see a real "Hard Use" knife stop a local farmer, fisherman, mechanic, etc. Chances are they have a knife that they've subjected to harder use than I ever will... ...chances are it's a Buck or a Gerber, etc. and does the job just fine.

I should also confess that I've been suckered in by the marketing and am still looking for the perfect "Fat, Heavy, Ugly" knife (or "Hard Use" if you prefer). The only other manual non-flipper ZT is the 0550 which is only a 3.5" blade (far too short for opening mail and other "Hard Use") but it's pricey and I still haven't found one. Currently I'm considering a Benchmade 275 Adamas :) I think the 4" blade 7.7 oz 3/4" handle ought to be well suited for my needs, it also seems like a bargain compared to the 0550.
 
ElConquistador said:
...I don't know how you got this impression but it kind of brings us back to the original topic of this thread.

First of all you say "Hard Use Knife". This seems to be a new catch phase, I'm not sure what it means. What makes a knife "Hard Use"... ...what is "Hard Use"??

Then you say "I think this would perform well under hard use". What makes you think that? Is it the size? Weight? Blade thickness/design? What is this knife going to be better at than another good 4" folder... ...say a Sypderco Endura, Benchmade 710 or Griptilian, etc.

It's all about "Perception", or what you "Think" the knife will be good for. "Terminology", making you think that you need a "Hard Use" knife for opening your mail. "Reality", the reality is that we buy this kind of stuff because it's cool and because we can. We can live without $300 overbuilt knives, it's all just marketing and creating a perceived need for a product. If you want to see a real "Hard Use" knife stop a local farmer, fisherman, mechanic, etc. Chances are they have a knife that they've subjected to harder use than I ever will... ...chances are it's a Buck or a Gerber, etc. and does the job just fine.

I should also confess that I've been suckered in by the marketing and am still looking for the perfect "Fat, Heavy, Ugly" knife (or "Hard Use" if you prefer). The only other manual non-flipper ZT is the 0550 which is only a 3.5" blade (far too short for opening mail and other "Hard Use") but it's pricey and I still haven't found one. Currently I'm considering a Benchmade 275 Adamas :) I think the 4" blade 7.7 oz 3/4" handle ought to be well suited for my needs, it also seems like a bargain compared to the 0550.
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I may have misunderstood your post. Sorry bout that. I defined what I consider hard use in my first post in this thread. I've chipped and rolled many edges on knives made from 420hc, 440a, 440c, Case CV and Tru Sharp, and the like, butchering feral hogs. I've also had Case, Gerber, and Buck folders that ended up with blade play after a season or two butchering hogs. Plus, they would go dull before I finished a large hog. The edges wouldn't usually last too long butchering feral hogs. At least not for me. Currently I've been using a Queen D2 fixed blade for those chores, and it's worked well for those chores. I suspect the 200 will too. The 200's lockup is rock solid. Plus, I think the 200 will be a bit easier to clean than some of the other large production folders. But, couldn't say for sure. I've not taken apart a Spyderco, or Benchmade. But, I've taken apart my 200 to clean it, and it's pretty easy. Same for the 300 and 301 I have. So, I suspect they would do well also, especially since they have the S30V steel.

I think any good production folder with a good solid handle/frame lock/liner lock, with good solid lockup, and good high end steel, would probably do well for my defined hard use. I intend to find out on the ZT's for sure.
 
Thomas W said:
What marketing have you been suckered into?
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Well, I guess I mean the overall presentation of, say for example, the Benchmade 275. It's a knife with a bad attitude; Coyote scalloped G-10 handles, a 4" black blade with a faux blood groove, even comes with a molle pouch. It's marketed as a cool "Hard Use" knife. I think it's cool, I want one, therefore the way this knife was marketed appeals to me.

Zero Tolerance... ...what's the logo, "Serious Missions, Serious Knives" even the "Zero Tolerance" name itself is marketing, all black knife, aggressive g-10. Again, the way this knife is marketed appeals to me, I really wanted to like the 0200 and was disappointed by it's short comings. I hope that the 0550 may be better in a couple areas and am tempted to try one.

I'm not trying to suggest that I've been tricked into buying a big heavy folder by somebody's clever advertising. I'm saying that I've decided that I want one because they're cool but I don't necessarily need a knife that could destroy a small city.
 
mley1 said:
I may have misunderstood your post. Sorry bout that. I defined what I consider hard use in my first post in this thread. I've chipped and rolled many edges on knives made from 420hc, 440a, 440c, Case CV and Tru Sharp, and the like, butchering feral hogs. I've also had Case, Gerber, and Buck folders that ended up with blade play after a season or two butchering hogs. Plus, they would go dull before I finished a large hog. The edges wouldn't usually last too long butchering feral hogs. At least not for me. Currently I've been using a Queen D2 fixed blade for those chores, and it's worked well for those chores. I suspect the 200 will too. The 200's lockup is rock solid. Plus, I think the 200 will be a bit easier to clean than some of the other large production folders. But, couldn't say for sure. I've not taken apart a Spyderco, or Benchmade. But, I've taken apart my 200 to clean it, and it's pretty easy. Same for the 300 and 301 I have. So, I suspect they would do well also, especially since they have the S30V steel.

I think any good production folder with a good solid handle/frame lock/liner lock, with good solid lockup, and good high end steel, would probably do well for my defined hard use. I intend to find out on the ZT's for sure.
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Wow, now that has to be the definition of "Hard Use"... ...I don't use knives nearly that hard, if I did then the 0200 would probably have been an ideal knife for me though I still would have modified the pocket clip some how so I could carry it.
 
Most of my knife use is light. But mley 1, in your original post of 3/7 you have written one of the finest endorsements for a knife I have ever read. Queen should pay you to reprint it. I also have been invariably pleased with the characteristics of D2 by Queen.
 
I will say I can make a pretty good guess as to how a knife will work just by looking at pictures and specs such as blade length and thickness and grind type. from fondling and using over a hundred knives in the past three years of being pretty much obsessed with knives.

I really never use my knives too hard. I don't like big sharpening jobs. Then there is the whole right tool for the job thing.
 
I won't go into details but I have stabbed a pickup rear quarter panel multiple times with my 550. All that did was barely warp the edge 1/8" from the tip. Tip still easily penetrates cardboard with ease and the edge warping is all but gone. The amazing the is the knife still opens butter smooth and the lockup is solid no play at all. Pretty sure this is bordering "abuse" hard use but it took it all in stride. Amazing thing was I testing it right after and the warping near tip still cut cardboard and paper with ease. Wonder how this would hold up to the feral hogs?;)
 
BLUEGINGER said:
I won't go into details but I have stabbed a pickup rear quarter panel multiple times with my 550. All that did was barely warp the edge 1/8" from the tip. Tip still easily penetrates cardboard with ease and the edge warping is all but gone. The amazing the is the knife still opens butter smooth and the lockup is solid no play at all. Pretty sure this is bordering "abuse" hard use but it took it all in stride. Amazing thing was I testing it right after and the warping near tip still cut cardboard and paper with ease. Wonder how this would hold up to the feral hogs?;)
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Lol,just my opinion.I think you crossed the border into the abuse area.:)
 
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