Test: Vanadis 4 vs. Infi vs. Vascowear ...

Joined
Jul 14, 2002
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Hi,

a forumite of the German "Messerforum.net" (kind of German "Bladeforums.com") went to Sweden about two weeks ago and tested a custom knife made of Vanadis 4, an other custom knife made of Vascowear and a Busse Basic #7.

You can find pictures of the knives (no Busse Basic #7 pic) here.

He said that the overall performance of the Vanadis 4 custom was best, it cut birch (hard & dry or "fresh") like butter and cut sausage after that without any problems. Vanadis 4 held the edge extremely well.

To be honest I am not quite satisfied with the report so far and I asked for more details. Hopefully "Ralf" will post some further information in his thread.

Regards

Mark23 :)
 
Thanks for providing the info.

I wonder if geometry had more to do with the results than steel?
 
isn't the basic #7 made of modified infi? in other words i demand a retest with real infi!
 
These posts always amuse me.

Busse Combat has had an open invitation for any manufacturer to step up and do a LIVE test of their own blades at a show as proof that they can surpass the performance of a Busse blade. NO ONE will do it.

If another manufacturer is interested I'm sure Jerry Busse would like to hear from them.

Here is a quote from Jerry regarding the performance of his Busse Basic 9 during live tests ". Over 2,700 pieces of one inch hemp rope cut and the BASIC #9 still easily sliced through paper at the same section of blade where the rope cuts were made. This was done at the Blade Show in Atlanta with plenty of witnesses and photographic proof. Over 3,200 pieces of one inch hemp rope and then the same knife was put in a vice and bent well beyond 70 degrees without breaking. This was at a show in Nashville. At a show near Cleveland we chopped through 20 2x4's and still shaved with the same section of the blade. We have done more than 30 shows with performance demonstrations"

I don't put much weight in this "other" test.
 
I really don't see the relevance of the steel in such a test. Birch isn’t the hardest wood out there, and sausage sure isn’t. I would think that blade geometry would play a MUCH more significant role in a test like this.
 
Hey guys,

If "Vanadis 4" is the same as "V4" (I think it is), then the stuff is great. I have a back-up knife made by Robert Dockrell, a BFC member, and it's awesome. I got it about 1.5 - 2 years ago, haven't had to sharpen it yet. I don't carry it as often as I did, but it's stays in my rotation. It always cuts whatever I put in front of it; mostly shipping boxes, neoprene tubing etc and once in a while it even deburrs holes in aluminum.

Robert told me the steel came from Sweden. Not sure what kind of finish he put on the knife, it came out a nice matte grey: definetly not bead blasted. I got pics somewhere but not sure where to post 'em.

If Robert reads this , I hope he chimes in. I'm sure he could give more info on V4.

Dale.
 
Then if it is neither Busse nor INFI you guys say it's worth nothing? I wonder how the results would differ if someone from the audience had asked Jerry to use his Busse instead?

Over 3,200 pieces of one inch hemp rope and then the same knife was put in a vice and bent well beyond 70 degrees without breaking.

Sounds like cutting rope affects the ability of INFI to bend? How realistic is a test like that? No matter what a commercial manufacturer of a knife says or does, it will be sales promotion.

Regards

Mark23
 
I can cut Birch AND than cut sausage with my plain jane 440 blades with no problem! Get pictures or video with lots of details and info.

...and still cuts sausage!:D
 
I think Busse makes an excellent knife, but why is it so hard to believe that a custom maker using a high quality steel can produce as good or better knife for a specific individual?

I believe that it speaks well for Busse that their knives compare favorably to custom made knives.
 
Since Busse knives are combat class, the edges will be more obtuse than something like a Marbles. If you compare the cutting ability for light work the Marbles will indeed do better. This is just geometry, not steel.

If you want to see the performance of the steel ask for a thinner and more acute edge. Busse has offered to do such modifications. Because of the abilities of the steel, it can take a very sharp, acute and thin edge if all you want to do is light bushcraft and food prep.

Nice handle on the V4 blade, though the transition from stock to primary grind is very abrupt.

-Cliff
 
Mark, just in case you actually really don't know this, the cutting test and bending test are ment to test two different parameters of a knife's performance. One is, of course, it's ability to cut. The other is how tough the knife is.

In my opinion, the only way to test these knives accurately would be if all three had the same edge geometry. Then you will be testing the ability of the steel and the quality of the heat treatment. If the geometries of the edge are different then you have no uniform reference point from which to make any judgements. If you really want to test the steels accurately, all the knives should be exactly the same with the only difference being the steel and the fact that each should be heat treated to it's optimum hardness.
 
Originally posted by Cliff Stamp
Since Busse knives are combat class, the edges will be more obtuse than something like a Marbles. If you compare the cutting ability for light work the Marbles will indeed do better. This is just geometry, not steel.
-Cliff

Well Cliff, you and I actually agree on something. Now if you would go over to the Busse forum and straighten out the misconception that some of the posters have, then you will have successfully completed your "unbiased" posting on knife use and manufacture

Now, the only thing is do you have to special order a Busse with a thin edge? If so, then what about the newcomers to the business that don't understand the difference in PERFORMANCE relative to design, edge thickness, etc. and believe that since Busse's performance is "the non disputed ultimate" then they are buying a knife that will out-perform any other, no matter the chore. Only to put a BM in blackberry vines and find out it doesn't cut worth a damn. Maybe some info about the knife's designed intent would be nice, and maybe a disclaimer saying "sure, it will cut weeds and brush but not as efficiently as a machete type blade, BUT we can grind you one that will" would also give the user something to go on. Some of these guys bitch about other people's misleading warranties so what's the difference?

I would safely bet that if Busse built a production machete / kitchen knife /thin woods knife, then it would be probably one of the best.
 
Hi!

So it would be better to test a knife like that vs. a Busse knife?

hardanger_roh.jpg


This is my custom knife prior to heat treatment and coating. It is made of Vanadis 4 and resembles Busse's blade geometry.
Total length: about 297 mm
Blade length: about 163 mm
Blade thickness: about 5 mm (4,985 mm to be precise)
Edge: konvex
Heat Treatment (Hardening, Quenching, Deep Cooling, 3 x Tempering) to 60 HRC

Regards

Mark23

If you want to learn more about Vanadis 4, click here
 
I'm not so sure that your blade is that close to a Busse for comparison testing. Your convex grind is much different from the Busse flat grind with assymetrical edge bevel. I'll bet that the Busse grind is quite a bit thicker overall. This should make the Busse a tougher knife, but a less efficient cutter.

This is just my guess though. You'd really need to have both knives and a pair of calipers to tell how similar they are.
 
Jeff :

[Busse Combat, scope of work]

.... what about the newcomers to the business that don't understand the difference in PERFORMANCE relative to design, edge thickness, etc.

If someone doesn't get the performance they want they simply phone Busse and make him aware of the problem so a solution can be found. Or drop him an email, or make a post in one of three active Internet forums. The real concern is when the user is not aware that the performance can in fact be any better, basically because they don't compare it to anything else. This is why I have always pushed for performance to be described in a relative manner. It forces a completely different mind set and cuts down on one of the main sources of promotional hype.

Maybe some info about the knife's designed intent would be nice ...

There is far too little of this in general I agree. Just pop around custom sites and see how many have detailed descriptions of scope of work on their blades. However with multiple active forums and a functioning email and active phone lines, you can't really complain about not being able to find out about blade choice for class of use for Busse, just ask. But yes, I would still like to see more detailed information on the website, though they are at least average in this respect, and better than a lot. HI is quite excellent for this with well known descriptions of all the khukuris and which one you should buy for which class of use.

... maybe a disclaimer saying "sure, it will cut weeds and brush but not as efficiently as a machete type blade

Jeff I said the exact same thing to you about some of your knife comments quite some time ago on the forum and you openly stated that you intentionally don't describe various weak points in your blades. Yet now you are asking this from Busse Combat. Busse in fact does it a lot more than is common as there are frequent links on the Busse forum to reviews in which the Busse blades are not presented as 100% dominant in every aspect, unlike a lot of other companies.

Yes there are those of the mind set that every knife should be a Busse, but everyone else isn't ignored. And as well Jeff, you don't do this as well on the knives you sell. In your page on the Ontario RTAK there is no mention about the fact that it doesn't cut light vegetation as well as a well sharpened light machete, nor does it chop heavy wood as well as something like a Busse BM, both of which you have commented on in the forums. You are asking for behaviour from others which you won't do yourself.

... if Busse built a production machete / kitchen knife /thin woods knife, then it would be probably one of the best.

Quite frankly I would not get excited over a Busse machete for light vegetation, a kitchen knife, or a light wood working knife, assuming the steel is INFI and the cost similar to the combat line now. As the work loads change and induce alterations in blade geometry, the same force drives different selection rules for materials properties and thus the rating system will change for the steels. What is stand out for one purpose, is sub average for another.

L6 makes a wonderful hard wood chopper. You can get it very hard so it doesn't dent or bend, and it is still tough enough not to chip and break. However it is a poor saltwater fillet knife because the edge corrodes literally in seconds, same thing in the kitchen on many types of acidic foods. S90V at ~63 RC makes an excellent fillet knife (and kitchen knife but is really overdoing it), and M2 at 64-66 RC make a great utility knife for abrasive cutting, but both would make a pretty poor machete unless you wanted it to behave like a fragmentation grenade.

In regards to a light utility knife mainly used for wood working, what is the benefit of having a very high impact toughness, corrosion resistance or wear resistance. Practically nothing, which is why the ABS guys just use simple steels like 1084 and no one is complaining about the performance. Ask Busse to make a better knife out of INFI and quite frankly you will be putting him in a spot where all his strengths don't have much functional advantages. The warranty, one of the biggest selling points is of little value when you are using the knife very lightly. It a lot of cases he could make as good a knife, but the cost would be much more and you would be doing a lot of work for little gain.

What I would like to see is a longer blade in the Swamp Rat line. Some kind of bolo/golok/parang class knife for brush cutting with a 16" blade. The Battle Mistress class blades are fine for chopping in regard to power and general cutting ability, but the reach is a real problem, too much stooping and bending, plus just repeating strokes. I have customs that will do this, but there is not a lot in the production market.


Buzzbait :

I'll bet that the Busse grind is quite a bit thicker overall.

When comparing different geometries you have to look at both the positive and negative aspects. Do you give up a functional loss in durability to gain the cutting ability advantage. If not, you have a directly superior blade. If so, you just traded performance in one area for another. Describe both the gain and the loss and let the reader decide if it was worth it.

Looking at the PDF file linked to in the above, assuming the bars are linear in the quantities they represent, V4 as compared to M2 at 64-66 RC, is roughly twice as tough. Calling it durable because of this would be like claiming to be an excellent sprinter because you can out run a one legged blind fat man with asthma.

-Cliff
 
Hi!

Who of you has ever used or even tested a knife made of Vanadis 4?

Uddeholm "Sverker 21" mentioned in the Vanadis 4 Info is the same as "D2". Now does that mean anything? But I guess D2 is a very bad steel, too, in your opinion ... so maybe Vanadis 4 is a Porsche compared to a Corvette ...

However, I conclude from your answers that neither european steel nor european manufacturers will ever be able to surpass or even come near to what their american counterparts are up to ...

Regards

Mark23
 
mark :

But I guess D2 is a very bad steel, too, in your opinion

Steels are neither "bad" nor "good". They have a set of properties which make them suitable or not for any given application. No I would not chose D2 for a heavy use combat knife. This doesn't mean it is bad. It is a simply excellent steel for a light use utility knife. It has a high possible hardness (62 RC), and wear resistance with an aggressive carbide structure for enhanced slicing performance. These however are not the critical aspects for a knife like the Steel Heart which can see heavy impacts and prying loads.

-Cliff
 
I think Busse makes an excellent knife, but why is it so hard to believe that a custom maker using a high quality steel can produce as good or better knife for a specific individual?

No one is saying that there can't be a better knife (especially for specific purposes) than a Busse. Its just that the tests described at the top of the thread don't say much about the relative performance of the steels involved. People are bitching because the tests do not really test what you say they test, and they are right.
 
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