Test: Vanadis 4 vs. Infi vs. Vascowear ...

[Eric_Draven]

Cliff:

An edge can't be "too thick" or "too thin", as geometry is task specific

I disagree, when the edge is so obtuse that the knife can not efficiently cut any material, than it is too thick, period. If you have atask that requires such a thick edge, than a knife is simply the wrong tool. A knife is meant to cut and slice, and if large enough chop. When you are talking a very high grade of steel like INFI coming from the factory with 50+ degree edges, there is no possible reason, except for cutting bone or hardened metals.

Busse uses, and heavily promotes, the toughness and strength of INFI, but if the edge is ground thickly, that is no accomplishment.

Even a paki-crap mystery steel knife will withstand tons of abuse if left at the thickness that Busse leaves his.

People are spending over $300 for a knife and it does not perform at the level that it should, and not even close to the level that it is capable of.

Putting a proper edge on a wear resistant steel like INFI is time and labor consuming, it should not be left to the customer.

Yes, Busse may do it on a custom basis if you ship you knife back to him, but now you add the total shippping costs, plus any fees he charges for refinishing the knife, etc. and you are talking money that should not have had to be spent to get the knife the way it should have been in the first place. In addition, as a Canadian, you should be especially concerned with duty,a nd international shipping issues. Sometimes sending the knife back is just too costly.

Just compare a NIB battlemistress to an ABS class blade, the difference in edge geometery (and primary grinds) is on another level, the resulting performance is beyond comparison.

Jerry has now defined extreme performance as meaning that Busse knives excel at "non-knife" functions like prying.

Only sharp knives are interesting.

Also a $5 dollar 9" carbon steel kitchen knife (like Ontario) makes a far better machete than your battle mistress, try swinging that huge hunk of steel through grass and vines for a few hours, when you arm falls off, tell me how effective the BM is then.

Also, try using a 9" blade to clear some paths through briar patches, black berry bushes and hazel, then explain how the factor of reach can be so easily ignored.

Someone better head down to South America and tell all the indigs that they have been using the wrong tool for hundreds of years. Those fools have been using machetes to clear jungle, clean fish and build houses since the spanish invasions (the machete is dirivative of the spanish cutlas). Jeez, just think what they would be able to do in the jungle if they had a 9" long, 1/4" thick piece of thick edged steel they couldn't sharpen!!!!



As Matthew Rappaport has in his sig line:
The difference between theory and reality is that in theory there is no difference, and in reality there is.

Bensano:

A GB small forest ax will cut down trees better, AND cut up vegtables

Yep, check out this thread:
http://www.knifeforums.com/ubbthrea...185737&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=7&fpart=1

 

uh oh, I see another thread closure looming on the horizon

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Eric :

... when the edge is so obtuse that the knife can not efficiently cut any material, than it is too thick, period.

Sure, which is exactly what I said. However you can't use relative terms in an absolute sense. What one person finds efficient another may not or find that too much durablity has been lost. I grind the edges on my large knives for example more acute than the ABS bowies you note in the below, because I have seperate blades for working on knotty wood than I do for clear wood and the ABS blades are generally designed to be able to handle knots. By the same logic you are using in the above reply I can label those blades as ground improperly etc. .

When you are talking a very high grade of steel like INFI coming from the factory with 50+ degree edges, there is no possible reason, except for cutting bone or hardened metals.

Yes, which is pretty much what is designed to be able to handle in extreme cases. Having a combat knife which can't handle this could lead to problems, people are full of bones.

Busse uses, and heavily promotes, the toughness and strength of INFI, but if the edge is ground thickly, that is no accomplishment.

Depends on what they are doing. If you are chopping a 2x4 yes, if you are chopping up bones and other hard materials it is different.

Even a paki-crap mystery steel knife will withstand tons of abuse if left at the thickness that Busse leaves his.

Ok, name a specific "paki-crap" knife which can match or exceed the durability levels that Busse promotes with a low grade knife, and at the same time match or exceed the cutting ability. If you can - great, lots of people would be happy if they could get the performance for cheaper, I would for one. I could then sell my SHBM, possibly for quite a profit considering the insane prices they are going for now. I could actually buy a very decent second hand car, which would be nice as I am shortly going to be taking a sledge hammer to mine unless the transmission can go without leaking for more than a couple of months.

People are spending over $300 for a knife and it does not perform at the level that it should, and not even close to the level that it is capable of.

Lots of people are perfectly satisfed with the performance, it depends on what you want in a knife. There are in fact lots of positive reviews on knives with thicker and/or more obtuse edges. This is a relative scale, no matter what level you apply someone could easily use a different level and have just as perfectly valid a viewpoint as everyone should have the right to have what they want in a knife. There is no simple universal right or wrong geometry (or steel or whatever) it depends on the desired use characteristics.

Putting a proper edge on a wear resistant steel like INFI is time and labor consuming, it should not be left to the customer.

And what about the people who like the edge the way it is now. If it was made to your specifics then they would have to modify it and can use the exact same argument for a thicker edge than you are using for the thinner edge. If it was made thinner and more acute it would be more suitable for me personally, I said this over three years ago when I first got the knife. However if it was made exactly to the way I wanted it then some of the people now complaining about it being too thick, would be complaining that it was now too thin, as I have discussed specific preferences with them in emails.

... you are talking money that should not have had to be spent to get the knife the way it should have been in the first place.

"should" - again what about the people who are perfectly satisfied with the performance of the stock knife. Now they would have to send it back for modifications and would then be capable of making your argument. As well ask around for production knife companies and see how many will do custom knives on your request. The fact that Busse offers it is actually better than most. Its not like you can phone up Benchmade or Spyderco and order a custom edge profile and finish. As well consider that 22 degrees per side, is common for small folders and the specifics for Busse than are being tossed around here (for up to 10" blades) are just 10% more obtuse. What does that mean for all such folders, or tactical blades in general.

Just compare a NIB battlemistress to an ABS class blade...

I already have, a bowie by Ray Kirk, it is intended for a very different class of work and indeed excells at it more than the SHBM with stock edge, so does a custom parang I got made.

... try swinging that huge hunk of steel through grass and vines for a few hours, when you arm falls off, tell me how effective the BM is then.

The BM is actually lighter than most large machetes. While the blade stock is 1/4", because it is fully flat ground, the total cross sectional area is the same as a 1/8" blade not ground, which is the way most traditional machetes are ground. I have more than a half a dozen martindale machetes, many are significantly heavier than a BM.

And personally the BM is quite light to me, as I traditionally use heavier blades for limbing. Blades that are heavy for me, like the large HI Ang Khola are also perfectly fine for others, again performance depends on user characteristics.

... explain how the factor of reach can be so easily ignored.

It can't, which is why I noted it several times. It is why I generally prefer ~16" class blades for wood work. Not so much for damage control in my hands, but quite simply it prevents so much bending and reaching.

Those fools have been using machetes to clear jungle, clean fish and build houses ...

Lots of places use blades similar in profile to 10" bowies (1/4" stock, full grinds). Parangs, bolos, goloks etc. are also used for such work and have very similar grinds to the BM.

-Cliff

 

[Eric_Draven]

Cliff:

Yes, which is pretty much what is designed to be able to handle in extreme cases. Having a combat knife which can't handle this could lead to problems, people are full of bones.

That is a very silly commentary. A modern solider, or law enforcement officer, is armed with a long arm, side arm and intermeadiate weapons, and the solider is backed by air support and arty. Do you really think that soldiers use knives to kill people vey often? An E-tool is a better CQC weapon than a knife, it has greater mass and reach. As well, many modern armies are equipped with fiberglass body armor (plates) that your BM will simply not penetrate. A knife is used to open MRE's more than anything else.

A real "combat" knife is a Gerber Multi-tool or leatherman, though real high class soldiers will carry the Swisstool. A Swiss army knife is a far superior tool in the real military than the Battle mistress.

You see, though you, and the rest oif the Jerry Krishnas say you are promoting performance, you are in fact promoting hype.

The vast majority, and I mean vast like 99%, of soldiers and LEOs would simply be forbidden to carry a large fixed blade knife.

The whole "tactical" movement is made to appeal to armchair commandos and wannabees.

Yes, some people need hard core knives, yes some people carry and use them in the line of duty, knifebomber, Nyeti and Shrike9 pop to mind and there are others, but these are the minority.

Yes, which is pretty much what is designed to be able to handle in extreme cases. Having a combat knife which can't handle this could lead to problems, people are full of bones.

BWAHAHAHAHAHA.
If a soldier, or police officer, had to use a knife to take someones life, it is highly unlikely that he is going to be concerned about the edge chipping. Indeed, if a knife is needed in a life and death emergency, it had damn well better be a sharp one.

Depends on what they are doing. If you are chopping a 2x4 yes, if you are chopping up bones and other hard materials it is different

If you are using a knife to chop hardend metals, you are using the wrong tool for the job. It amazes me that in one breath you can talk about using tools which are highly optimized (such as your mel serg, or sub-sniper) and in the next breath talk about subjecting tools to stresses far beyond what is reasonable.

You see, unlike in fairy tale world where guys like Ryu live, in the real world, people don't chop metal pipes, except if they are idiots. Again, if you're blade chips when you hit a steel pipe, you got no room to complain.

lots of people would be happy if they could get the performance for cheaper, I would for one. I could then sell my SHBM, possibly for quite a profit considering the insane prices they are going for now

You can get a much higher level of performance in the Valiant Goloks for a fraction of the price in a large knife, or you can get a GB axe that will outchop a Battle Mistress by a many to one margin for a fraction of the price. Indeed, although I have not used a BK9 yet, I would expect that it offers a high level of slicing and push cutting performace for under 70 bucks, and the sheath is better!

As for the durability, if I wanted sheer durability in a knife, I'd give my Uncle Bill a call and have 9/16" thick blade of 5160 spring steel, whcih is basicly indestructable for all reasonable purposes.

As for paki-crap, I really haven't looked into that market too much.

Lots of people are perfectly satisfed with the performance, it depends on what you want in a knife.

Yes, and I'd bet most of those people leave there knives in a drawer or safe. For that purpose a thick edge works just as well as a thin edge, you are right.

There are in fact lots of positive reviews on knives with thicker and/or more obtuse edges.

Yes, and most are written by people who are full of crap, or ahve no idea how to properly use a knife. If you have to go out to your garage and get a 2x4 to whack, it is very telling. People that use their knives for real, in the real world for sport or pay, ALL want thin edges, because in the real world, it does not matter how cool your knife looks, what the name etching reads or how much it costs, all that counts is how well it cuts and slices, and for that sir you need a thin edge.

Go to a woodshop, a fish market, a lumbermill, grainery, slaughterhouse, check out an oil rig or constrruction site. Ask survey crews and forestry agents. Do you think any prefer thick edge knives? Hell no, they'd be thrown in the trash.

As well ask around for production knife companies and see how many will do custom knives on your request. The fact that Busse offers it is actually better than most. Its not like you can phone up Benchmade or Spyderco and order a custom edge profile and finish

And it's not like your spending $300 for their knives either. If I want to spend $300, there are plenty of custom makers who will put as thin of an edge as I want on a knife.

I can spend $8 and get a Mora from erikkson that will out cut any "tactical" knife made, or a simple Opinel if I wanted a folder that will do the same thing.

To this I expect you will interject versatility, and again I counter that that level of durability is not needed, except in the world of hype and fantasy, where little men buy big knives to make up for their phallic shortcomings. Yes, armchair commandos need big, thick knives to feel like real men. People who use their knives, want them to cut well. As you know, if you want to increase performance, ya gotta reduce cross section, which necessarilly means a loss in durability.

As well consider that 22 degrees per side, is common for small folders and the specifics for Busse than are being tossed around here (for up to 10" blades) are just 10% more obtuse. What does that mean for all such folders, or tactical blades in general.

Yep, most "tactical" knives are far overbuilt. Your argument here is that since everbody else jumped off the bridge, Busse is ok for jumping just a little further. Busse boasts of "extreme performance", which is a statement that is silly when you make thick edged knives. Note that I have no objection to the primary grind geometery for the most part, it is those damn thick edges. Oh, and the crappy sheaths too.

Also a 10% (you forgot the +/- though) increase in cross section leads to a much larger increase in performance loss (yep, the gain in durability is quadratic, but the loss in performance ain't linear either!)

Lots of places use blades similar in profile to 10" bowies (1/4" stock, full grinds). Parangs, bolos, goloks etc. are also used for such work and have very similar grinds to the BM

Some cultures use 10" blades, but look at a real bolo, golok or parang, and the profile is parabolic, a convex forged grind with a thin edge.

You have examined the Valiant Goloks, as have I, so you know that a real golok has a very thin profile and offers a much higher level of performance than a Battle Mistress. As well, most of these are larger, like 14-24" and will out perform a Battle Mistress by a many to one margin, both in chopping and fine work.

I find it quite odd that you are defending thick edges now Cliff, all your past work has shown the marked advantage that thin edges offer. Would you be defending thick edges if it was another maker?
Would you be taling about "relativeness"? Nope, you'd hopefully be writing the truth, which is that thin edges cut better and are more suitable for the vast, vast majority of what knives are used for.

Quite honestly, I feel this shows a major lack of integrity on your part, and is a blatant display of bias. Funny, for someone who purports to be a scientist, you sure do have a funny sense of remaining objective.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Eric :

If a soldier, or police officer, had to use a knife to take someones life, it is highly unlikely that he is going to be concerned about the edge chipping.

This is indeed an arguable point. It is common for tactical knives in general to have edges which can take bone contacts. This does reduce the cutting ability over an edge which doesn't need such durability. An edge which is just durable enough able to take light wood cutting will basically be seriously damaged on a heavy bone contact, to the extent that it would be a very different blade after it was reprofiled, so its a one time use thing. I doubt that you would get much support from this idea with the tactical community.

If you are using a knife to chop hardend metals, you are using the wrong tool for the job.

It isn't intentional most times for brush knives. Objects that you are cutting can have inclusions, as simple as rock in tree bark, or in urban areas junk can be hidden by vegetation. Glancing while chopping can also cause impacts off of surrounding objects. For me it always comes down to how much edge damage I am willing to put up with for these contacts. With machetes I just wear them out but for others I raise the edge to increase the lifetime of the blade.

You can get a much higher level of performance in the Valiant Goloks for a fraction of the price in a large knife, or you can get a GB axe that will outchop a Battle Mistress by a many to one margin for a fraction of the price. Indeed, although I have not used a BK9 yet, I would expect that it offers a high level of slicing and push cutting performace for under 70 bucks, and the sheath is better!

All of these have drawbacks so the performance increase isn't 100%, it never is that simple. The Valiant Goloks for example are not fully hardened and can be easily bent and the edge is much easier damaged on wood working, limbing and knots. The steel in the Beckers can also be prone to brittle failure from the small sample I have seen. The GB axe is a very nice axe, probably the best in its price range, but it isn't a direct replacement for a 10" blade. The Becker indeed has a thinner edge from the specs so its cutting ability will be higher, possibly chopping as well depending on the mass and balance.

And it's not like your spending $300 for their knives either.

The high end folders comes into the same price range as the smaller Busse fixed blades.

I can spend $8 and get a Mora from erikkson that will out cut any "tactical" knife made, or a simple Opinel if I wanted a folder that will do the same thing.

I have said the same thing in past reviews on such blades. However this doesn't mean the blades are "better", the performance is less in other areas.

[edge angle]

... the loss in performance ain't linear

You are basically looking at the compression induced on the material which is linear in the edge angle as that gives a linear expansion of the width. Its actually dependent on the tan of the angle but that is very close to proportional to the angle on the level we are talking about.

As for Busse taking it one step further in regards to edge angle, we are talking about the edge on a 10" bowie as compared to a 4" folder. Do you really think that a 10% increase in angle isn't justified. It of course is, and what this implies is that the vast marker of folders are vastly overbuilt and all these makers and customers can have the same labels applied to them that you tossed around in the above.

Some cultures use 10" blades, but look at a real bolo, golok or parang, and the profile is parabolic, a convex forged grind with a thin edge.

Yes, I was just commented on the machete issue, it doesn't dominate all "native use".

I find it quite odd that you are defending thick edges now Cliff ...

Its the generalization. If you were arguing that thick edges gave "better performance" (a blank statement) I would point out the higher cutting ability of thinner edges and have done so in the past. Same thing if you commented that carbon steels are "better" than stainles steels or made any performance statement while ignoring the counterpart or drawbacks. It is always just a trade off issue. You want to increase some aspect of performance you have to give it up in another area. You can always discuss personal preference on how much cutting ability you want as compared to durablity, and in general the way in which the tradeoffs should fall, but that is all that it is, personal preference. There is no arguement possible that someone else should use the blade profile that you prefer.

As for calling everyone fools and idiots who want the necessary durability to handle bone contacts or every beyond, do some research and see who gets included in this group. There are a lot of makers who design their blades in this way, and a lot of people who want the ability. As well, the edge angles on the Busse knives are in fact necessary for wood work in the extreme cases, for example I have badly chipped out a GB Wildlife hatchet while working on frozen hardwoods. This can be necessary around here in the winter. Now of course you can again simply argue than anyone who lives in such an enviroment is a fool and an idiot and indeed there is probably some truth to that as if you live in a place that when it gets -20 in the winter you remark that it is warming up moving might be a reasonable choice - but you do get used to it.


-Cliff

 

[cgd160]

I have a question for the Busse haters, when was the last time you purchased a new Busse, (Natural Outlaw, Steel Heart or Battle Mistress). I have one of each, all came hair popin sharp with pointy as hell tips (All purchased within the last 18 months.). Jerry very well may be listening to you comments.
Also, what are these myserious camp chores that supposedly Busse's can't perform efficiently. Unfortunately, I only use mine for camping and have never met a vegetable or piece of fruit that gave my SH a problem.

 

First of all I'm not a "Busse hater" when it comes to the knives. I don't like Jerry Busse but that's another issue.

Second, I haven't claimed a Busse CAN'T do the chores you mentioned I have claimed thet can't do the chores as well as other knives. With that said, they are not the "leader in extreme performance," unless you use Jerry Busse's direct words posted on our forum and call "extreme performance" "non-knifelike" functions.

Sharpness is not the only requirement for efficiency.

I mean think about it, you need to get the tangent lined up with the cosine, and then all atoms have to make sure that they like their molecue buddies, and then you have to worry that you have your Bourdon pressure gage calibrated or else all the stratums will collpase within ~3 microns of the primary grind, and don't forget about Pascal's Law which can throw you off + or > than the ambient pressure of the atmosphere when applying these tests.

 

[Eric_Draven]

Originally posted by cgd160
I have a question for the Busse haters, when was the last time you purchased a new Busse, (Natural Outlaw, Steel Heart or Battle Mistress). I have one of each, all came hair popin sharp with pointy as hell tips (All purchased within the last 18 months.). Jerry very well may be listening to you comments.
Also, what are these myserious camp chores that supposedly Busse's can't perform efficiently. Unfortunately, I only use mine for camping and have never met a vegetable or piece of fruit that gave my SH a problem.

Yes, the Busse edge will pop hair, and easily push shave, that is not a true indication of cutting performance, but simply a matter of edge alignment an edge polish.

Cold steel's fixed blades are much the same, they will shave like crazy, but won't cut worth snot.

For outdoors use, the pimary use of a knife is going to be in woodcraft, especially for the classically trained outdoorsman from the Nessmuk, Ormond, Rutledge, etc school of thought. Read any of the clasic outdoors men, all echo the same sentiment in regards to knives: Thin spines and edges. Why? Becasue that is what works best in the outdoors.

Try and whittle a trap trigger with a 50 degree edge, it ain;t gonna be pretty. Try making a fuzz stick for fire starting with a thick edge, ya can't do it. Try skinning game with a NIB busse edge, it can be done but the results ain't pretty. They are handy for chopping paws off though. Even a simple task like making points on a tent pole is much harder with a thick edge.

Cliff:

It isn't intentional most times for brush knives. Objects that you are cutting can have inclusions, as simple as rock in tree bark, or in urban areas junk can be hidden by vegetation. Glancing while chopping can also cause impacts off of surrounding objects. For me it always comes down to how much edge damage I am willing to put up with for these contacts

Full power swings into inclusions such as rocks will damage even the thickest edge, if it is not an imeadiate chip or dent, it may be crack propigation and metal weakening that will lead to later gross failure.

seriously damaged on a heavy bone contact, to the extent that it would be a very different blade after it was reprofiled, so its a one time use thing. I doubt that you would get much support from this idea with the tactical community

How many times do you think a knife is needed for killing people? For the most part, the "tactical" community is a bunch of wanabee arm chair commandos. It is not the knife in the fight, it is the man holding it.

IF you are going to be using a knife for self defense, you want the sharpest edge possible, look at the Lynn Grifith "flesh cutting" edge for example.

The Valiant Goloks for example are not fully hardened and can be easily bent and the edge is much easier damaged on wood working, limbing and knots

THat is incorrect. During normal usage by a reasonable and half way skilled person, there is no reason to fear for the durability of a Valiant. IF someone stick it into a stump and sees how much weight they can use and wrap it around a tree stump, than they have not acted reasonably. Agian, you speak of the desire for optimzed tools, yet you use knives for a manner in which they were never intended.

The GB axe is a very nice axe, probably the best in its price range, but it isn't a direct replacement for a 10" blade.

I heartily disagree, a GB axe will outperform any thick edged sharpened pry bar many to one. It will out chop, and is better for fine work. The much mopre acute edge and primary profile make it a directly better tool for the vast majority of tasks.

You are basically looking at the compression induced on the material which is linear in the edge angle as that gives a linear expansion of the width. Its actually dependent on the tan of the angle but that is very close to proportional to the angle on the level we are talking about.

I have no idea what that mass of jibberish means. Yep, you can use bigger words than me, heck that ain't hard to do. I never claimed to be smart, in fact I'll admit to being quite simple. But that still does not change to fact that I know that thick edged knives are the work of hell spawn demons, sent here to destroy humanity. Further, all who support this thick edged non-sense are obviously their agents, aiding in the destruction of our world.

You want to increase some aspect of performance you have to give it up in another area.

while this may be true of edge agrression, it is not true with edge thickness, you are losing Performance which is cutting ability in order to gain durability . The leel of durability that is being gained does not offset the loss in perforamcne for the vast majority of applications. It results in a directly inferior knife, which is troubling becasue the potentail of Busse knives is very good indeed.

Your argument here reminds me of the time you wrote that the Busse folder is the best for heavy use, depsite the fact that it does not yet exsist.

You can talk about extrapolation and use other bug words, but it does not make you right. Your logic is faulty. It is time you opened your eyes and realize that you have been supporting an argument becasue of who is making it, rather than on the facts and performance issues.

It is stupid to call a knife a high performance knife becasue it excells at being a pry bar and chopping metal. Do you think this is how Joe Talmadge or Mike Swain would define a high performance knife? Of course not, because it is the most assinine definition I have ever read.

 

[cgd160]

I mean think about it, you need to get the tangent lined up with the cosine, and then all atoms have to make sure that they like their molecue buddies, and then you have to worry that you have your Bourdon pressure gage calibrated or else all the stratums will collpase within ~3 microns of the primary grind, and don't forget about Pascal's Law which can throw you off + or > than the ambient pressure of the atmosphere when applying these tests.

Jeff, LMAO

Eric, who writes a good book about making a trap trigger and other things like that. (and what the hell is a trap trigger?). Is a fuzz stick, when you basically shave a stick down to a fluffy piece of wood.?

edited to add: Is being able to slice a tomato considered a sharp blade?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Eric :

Full power swings into inclusions such as rocks will damage even the thickest edge

Of course, what you are controlling is the extent of the induced damage, critically the depth as that is basically directly proportional to edge life. The same impacts on a thin machete and a SHBM with the ~50 degree edge would lead to a multiple times increase in edge damage on the machete. Of course the machetes durability [in this regard] has also been lowered by the ~15 point drop in RC, but even it it was at the same hardness the difference in damage induced would be rather extreme.

During normal usage by a reasonable and half way skilled person, there is no reason to fear for the durability of a Valiant.

I put a perm bend in the first one I had simply prying wood out of log as I was working through it. I didn't even realize I had done it until I noticed the blades chopping ability had suddenly took a drastic downturn. The wood wasn't that clear and thus it would not break out on its own so I was popping out the chips by torquing sideways on the knife. The edge was also destroyed (damage was that extensive that reprofiling would have made it a different blade), simply by limbing out hardwoods. To be specific, the woods around here are also in general some of the softer types, what I cut is mainly anyway.

Now there are ways to do this work and put far less stress on the blade. For example when working through the thick wood when knots prevent the chips from clearing you can simply cut in smaller notches so the blade always clears, but this takes a lot more time, and you are in effect losing cutting ability (as you are taking more time and effort). Same thing with the limbing, most of the time you can beat them off with the spine, but on some of the springier woods this isn't possible. You could always notch them off one by one, but again you are in effect losing cutting ability as it is taking you much longer because the durablity of the edge is too low for that work.

I heartily disagree, a GB axe will outperform any thick edged sharpened pry bar many to one.

I would agree that there are a lot of areas in which an quality axe would be preferred over a 10" class blade (speaking of just general utility). However there are also a lot of areas in which the blade would give higher performance than the axe even if the edge was more obtuse than necessary. For a lot of fine work the rate of fatigue of working with the axe will be far greater than with the blade even though the edge is more acute on the axe, the weight of the head is greater plus it is more difficult to rotate the axe as the edge is so far in front of your grip, peeling vegetables for example. As well lots of tasks are more suited to the extra edge length of the blade, such as cutting light grasses or other similar vegetation, any blade will easily handle that if sharp, even with really obtuse edges. Filleting fish is also easier with the blade as pushing the axe head under the fillet it far more difficult. There are also areas in which point work is easier with the knife. The axe has lots of other non-cutting abilities the knife doesn't have of course such as being a much better hammer.

[edge angle relationship to cutting ability]

I have no idea what that mass of jibberish means.

When you cut through thick material the main force required comes from pushing the material apart. The amount you have to push it apart is directly proportional to the tangent of the angle of the wedge you are driving through it, which is very close a linear relationship with the edge angle to the degree of precison being discussed here. The total effect on cutting ability is however not as great as the angle ratio as the primary grind and sharpness are also factors.

... with edge thickness, you are losing Performance which is cutting ability in order to gain durability .

Yes, this is just semantics, I would call durability an aspect of performance, you can of course define knife performance whatever way you want.

Your argument here reminds me of the time you wrote that the Busse folder is the best for heavy use, depsite the fact that it does not yet exsist.

Not even close to what I was said. Specifically I was asked which folders would I consider suitable for heavy use and I replied :

"Professor, based on the attitude of the makers and the level of customer support, without having used them I would be interested in the Busse Combat and the Strider/Buck folder as serious use folders. The Sebenza is very good profile wise as well as lock, but the handle ergonomics don't suit me well. The Gunting from Spyderco is another choice. While heavily combat influenced, the trainers I have handled look to make a solid using knife. The lock is secure and passes all torquing and whack tests. No idea about the strength but I would assume it is fairly high."

My opinion has changed slightly on the above, I would not use the Strider/Buck or Sebenza, or liner locks or integrals in general because of the possibilities of release under twisting.

[extreme use]

Do you think this is how Joe Talmadge or Mike Swain would define a high performance knife?

Probably not, in general its not what comes to my mind [as of late it is high hollow relief grinds on ~72 RC HSS) but that is simply personal preference.

-Cliff

 

[Eric_Draven]

A tomato is a decent check, but a hardwood dowel is the best for pushcut ability, and I like cardboard and carpet for slicing.

My favorite outdoors writer (right now) is Calvin Rutstrum, followed by Mors Kochanski (who does an excellent job explaining axe work). George Sears is good, but for "inspiration" not particular skills.

Your best bet may be in video, check out Ron Hoods trapping (Volume 5 if my adled mind is working right), or seveal volumes from Buckshot.

These can be found at www.survival.com

Head on over to the Surival forum at KFC, lots of woodcraft skills are discussed there. But tthere is a no commando a$$munch rule in place, so most of the krishnas would probably not fit in too well.

Again, I emphasize that it is skill and knowledge that is the most important factopr, not equipment. Skill is what allows other cultures to thrive in situations that we would label surivival, and they call daily living.

Now, Cliff will say "What if you're dropped into the artic sea naked, you'd sure want some equipment then." OR some such hocus pocus Bull$hit argument. If that is the best you can do, then a thick edge knife is the perect tool for you, maybe you won't hurt yourself so bad.

Again,
Cliff is only making the arguments he is, because he is supporting Jerry Busse. IF another maker had made these same claims, he would likely be calling them the garbage that they are. By that I refer to defining a supreme and all powerful extreme performance knife by its ability to be used a a pry bar, giving no heed to it performance as a knife. How silly.

 

Well, all I can say about this whole thread is I'm heartbroke that no one took my scientific analysis serious. Afterall, I am a physicist since I own a book named Modern Physics authored by Dull, Metcalf, and Brooks. That is all that's required to be a scientist here, right? Please don't tell me there's more required and I need some type of Phd to be considered a real scientist. I have a high school education and I also went to vocational school one week before getting kicked out for smoking in the classroom.

 

[cgd160]

Eric, I can say from hardcore experience here, that Busse makes the undisputed leader in extreme performance tactical carpet slicers. .

 

Originally posted by cgd160
Eric, I can say from hardcore experience here, that Busse makes the undisputed leader in extreme performance tactical carpet slicers. .

 

[Eric_Draven]

Cliff:

Of course, what you are controlling is the extent of the induced damage, critically the depth as that is basically directly proportional to edge life. The same impacts on a thin machete and a SHBM with the ~50 degree edge would lead to a multiple times increase in edge damage on the machete. Of course the machetes durability [in this regard] has also been lowered by the ~15 point drop in RC, but even it it was at the same hardness the difference in damage induced would be rather extreme.

Again you are arguing durability, when the issue in question is performance.

How efficient is the 50 degree BM edge? Not at all, you are gonna beat the tree to death before you chop it down.

There is a reason you thinned out the edge (drasticly so) on your BM, Jerry makes them far too thick for any real application. That is the charge.

Yes, a machete is soft, yes it will get damaged more if you hit a rock, that is not rocket science.
What you do is respond to an argument with a repsonse, that may have some validity, but does not answer the question.

I put a perm bend in the first one I had simply prying wood out of log as I was working through it

I have several Valiant goloks, and used the SGL just today (as well as the two pirior days), if you bent it, you were using it wrong. The durability is quite high, it is convex spring steel. For cutting fairly clear timber it is more than robust enough. I was limbing dead hemlocks, a far more stressful task, and the edge had no damage.

As well lots of tasks are more suited to the extra edge length of the blade, such as cutting light grasses or other similar vegetation, any blade will easily handle that if sharp, even with really obtuse edges. Filleting fish is also easier with the blade as pushing the axe head under the fillet it far more difficult

Try filleting a fish with a 50 degree edge on a 1/4" thick knife, you are not gonna have fillets, you are gonna have mush. You libve in NF, lots of fishermen there, go down to the wharf, show them a NIB BM, and see the response. It will be a humorous one to say the least. It may make a good anchor though.

When you cut through thick material the main force required comes from pushing the material apart. The amount you have to push it apart is directly proportional to the tangent of the angle of the wedge you are driving through it, which is very close a linear relationship with the edge angle to the degree of precison being discussed here. The total effect on cutting ability is however not as great as the angle ratio as the primary grind and sharpness are also factors

Again, you are using the "Baffle them with Bull$hit" technique.
Take a look at Joe T's Axis article, you change the edge grind angle and finish and can get many to one increases in performance.

I would call durability an aspect of performance, you can of course define knife performance whatever way you want.

It may be a small factor, but Busse, and by extension you since you are supporting his argument, are saying that durability is the dispositive factore, the one that swamps out all the others. This is garbage and you well know it. Your own work has indicated this. Again, you are only making these claims becasue they are in defense of Jerry Busse. If Mike Fuller ahd said the same thing, you wouldn't be writing this these arguments that lacked merit and are not based in reality.

I gotta run, maybe I'll write a little more later.

 

[Rob Simonich]

Cliff, a while back it seems to me you stated that blade materials have very little effect on cutting ability. (Not chopping or impact stuff) I could do a search to see but I dont have the time. Did I mis read the posts?

 

[Eric_Draven]

All right, I have a few minutes, so I will show a little more of your flawed reasoning Cliff:

As well consider that 22 degrees per side, is common for small folders and the specifics for Busse than are being tossed around here (for up to 10" blades) are just 10% more obtuse. What does that mean for all such folders, or tactical blades in general.

I had earlier objected to this statement based on its flawed reasoning, now I will object becasue it is factually false. Just plain wrong.

Spyderco, one of the biggest names in the knife industry uses a NIB edge profile slightly above 30 degrees for hollow ground blades and the new Sabre Flat Grind FRN models, and I have seen some full flat grinds from Spyderco at less than 30 degrees included. The Calypso and Veile for example.

Buck, another large name is using a much thinner edge grind than 45 degrees called the edge 2000, emersom knives is using a chisel grind for the edges that is typicaly just above 25 degrees included.

Most of the Serrated edged folders have NIB edges well under 30 degrees.

Cammilus, probably the biggest knife company, and certainly the oldest, regularly uses thinner grinds, and the new K-bar folders are even thinner edged.

CRKT is known for their razor sharp, thin edges.

Even Benchmade, which traditionally had very thick edges, is improving in this area, the last Benchmade I bought (an Axis AFCK) had a thinner edge, about 14 degree per side.

Microtech, which makes some very tactical folders, always uses much thinner edges than you depict as the industry standard.

Which companies did you mean Cliff? Jaguar, fury and no-name?


Second, I object to the statement becaaue it is very misleading. You give a number for edge angles, which is rather meaningless unless you look at the thickness of the metal directly behind the edge, and this is determined by the primary grind of the knife.

Take a thin opinel and apply a 50 degree edge, it is still going to outslice, by a large margin, a NIB Battle Mistress. It is MUCH thinner behind the edge.

This is typical of the way you misuse numbers, you make assertions and use numbers, but those numbers are meaningless if not placed into context.

Second, you are fond of comparing a machete to the BM. They are totally different tools.

The machete is used for soft vegetation, it has no primary grind and is not made to chop hard woods. It will readily bind, and may even be damaged, That is not a suprise, it is what happens when you use the worng tool for the job. Again, for someone that stresses optimized tools, you sure do have a funny way of misusing them.

Is it suprising when an Allen wrench strips out a torx head screw? You do the same thing when you misuse tools.

As well lots of tasks are more suited to the extra edge length of the blade, such as cutting light grasses or other similar vegetation, any blade will easily handle that if sharp, even with really obtuse edges. Filleting fish is also easier with the blade as pushing the axe head under the fillet it far more diffic

Again, you show how deluded and attenuated your argument has become. It is weak. Just like Jerry Busse you are defining peformance by the way a knife or tool reacts for situation it was never design for. That is retarded.

I should close by adding that I am not in fact a Busse hater as I have been labled, I have sent plenty of money Jerry's way and have and still do own several of his knives, both straight and E-handle as well as examples of the basic line. I have not tried the Swamp Rat line, but will shortly.

What I object to is the fact that Jerry makes broad claims of being the leader in extreme perfomance cutlery, yet makes knives whith thick edges that don't cut worth a darn, and sends them in sub-par sheaths.

You, yourself Cliff, have taken makers to task about promotional hype, but seem blind to the fact that your exalted leader of Jerry Krishnas does the same thing. IF it is worng for Lynn Tho,mpson to do, it is wrong for Jerry Busse as well.


Next, you make these assertions about what it takes to stand up to bone contacts, look at the work that has been done with Hossom knives. There is an example of a performance and durability. Just look at the work Gadi B. and Dr.Gaucho have done with them. THat is high performance.

If you want to talk about bending and pruing, the ABS blades are subjected to far more stress than Busse's hype, jsut look at some of the testing done by the Montana Mafia, or that done by Folwer on his own knives, they combine durability and high performance. You see the two are not mutually exclusive as you have depicted.

Again, the charge I make against you Cliff is that you are an apologist for Jerry Busse. If it were anyone else making these claims, you would be taking them to task for sure.

You can try to use big words, fancy statistic (which are bogus and have no vailidty), try to sound like an objective scientist. But the truth is that it has become obvious that you argue for Jerry, whether he is right or wrong. What is that line about the single greatest detriment to your integrity is taking things on authority?

Hmmm, looks like your integrity is running pretty low.


The charge I make against Jerry Busse is that he acted without honor, he lied, and insulted Blues and Hoodoo. Both of these men are the shining example of integrity, you and Jerry could learn a lot from them, instead you rationalize, bull$hit and make excuses for each other.

 

[Jerry Busse]

Busse knives have not only performed "live" destructive tests but "live" cutting tests as well. It is important to note that we don't just bend our knives in vises and chop concrete blocks in half with them at shows but we also do a lot of cutting. We've cut over 3,100 pieces of 1" hemp rope with the same section of blade and then easily sliced through paper with that same section. . . . We've done the free hanging rope test many, many times at these shows.. . Not just single pieces of rope, but several pieces at a time. We've also performed many wood chopping tests and demonstrations at these shows. All with the same knife. Trying to propose that Busse knives "don't cut" is ridiculous.

There are some who infer that our definition of “Extreme Performance” means excelling at “non-knifelike functions” ONLY. That certainly does not equate to our actual definition. The following is the definition that I posted on another forum.

In regards to my definition of “extreme performance”, it is quite simple. We manufacture knives for the gravest and most extreme situations that might present themselves to those who carry our blades. If a blade fails under these “extreme” circumstances, then lives may be lost. In a “real” survival situation where something has gone dramatically wrong in order to make it a “real” survival situation, the knife you have with you may very well be called upon to perform “non-knifelike functions”. It is at these most “extreme” moments that NOT ONLY CUTTING POWER, but lateral and impact strength will come into play. It is under these “extreme performance” demands that the Busse Combat blades simply stand above all others.

In regards to my comments about Blues and Hoodoo. I felt that Blues had made a misrepresentation of the Busse forum. He did this publicly, not privately, and it certainly looked as though he was taking a cheap, undeserved, shot at Busse Combat. I responded publicly, I should have taken the high road and contacted him privately. If I misinterpreted his remarks, I apologize. My comments to Hoodoo were made privately, by email. I do not have any hard feelings towards either one of these gentlemen and know that all of this nonsense could have been avoided by contacting me privately and off-line from the beginning.

I think Jeff and I could have had a meaningful conversation had he contacted me privately. I would have enjoyed hearing his feedback on our knives even though he admits to NEVER owning one. I can’t possibly know what condition the Busse knife he used was in at the time he used it.

I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. If I am EVER contacted privately and fail to satisfy someone’s concerns or respond to their feedback, then I am more than willing to take a public beating. However, if I am simply being taken to task publicly because someone does not have the coconuts to call me, or they simply want to cause a little controversy, then what purpose does it serve?

I can be contacted by phone at (419) 923-6471 Ext. 105. Call anytime! Leave a message if I’m unavailable and I will call you back. My personal email is jerry@bussecombat.com.

Jerry Busse

 

[Eric_Draven]

Jerry:

It is nice to see you respond to this thread.

It is great to see a maker participate in the forums.

I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. If I am EVER contacted privately and fail to satisfy someone’s concerns or respond to their feedback, then I am more than willing to take a public beating. However, if I am simply being taken to task publicly because someone does not have the coconuts to call me, or they simply want to cause a little controversy, then what purpose does it serve?

Well, that is fine, and how business should be conducted. However, you do seem to readily take praise on the forums, but you don't want to take the heat.

It is understandable to want to take care of customer concerns in private.

From all the accounts I have read, you have been accomodating over the phone and when customers contact you directly.

It seems that much of the problem comes from your customers (aka the busse cult or Jerry Krishnas) who, in their zeal to boast about your products, make some absurd claims, and even more absurd arguments.

Tales of chopping on a metal post for ten minutes, hacking a part a frifge, dismantaling cars. These people need the jaws of life, not a simple knife.

On the subject of performance and durability, the issue here is simply that you have been grinding the edges of your knife too thick recently.

Cliff has said these thick edges are needed to chop bone, a trait he seems to feel is essential in a "combat knife."

Well, the truth is that thin edges can chop bone too.

The biggest bone whacker in the industry would have to be Ron Hood, who has been bone whacking for many years. Though with a wife as beautiful as Karen, you'd think he'd have better things to do with his time than whack bone on oak stumps.

In any event, Ron has an infamous bone whacking test, developed after years of whacking bone (mostly in his teen age years, but I'm sure Ron still gets plenty of whack time in, it can get boring in the woods sometimes). Ron takes elk leg bones, which are some of the toughest, far harder than human bones, and chops them to pieces.

Ron has whacked bone video for all to see.

A number of knives with thin edges have passed this torture test, most recently Rob Simonich's A2 Nordooh, Trace Rinaldi (with a Bos treated A2 blade) and Chris Bowles (with diff tempered 5160). I'm sure the Ferhhman knives, in such contraversy as of late, have taken their share of whacking as well.

While I am sure an INFI Battle Mistress would breeze through, what distinguishes these knives is that they have edges thin enough for woodcraft as well.

It is interesting to note that there has been much strife over Busse knives in the last few days. What is even more interesting is that it is not supporters of other makers that are causing the stir, but rather your own customers that have become unhappy with the evolution of Busse Combat knives.

They are not happy with the poor finish under the coating, the poor tang to scale fit, the uneven, and obtuse grinds and poor sheaths that have been leaving your shop. When they have tried to make these critisisms on a public forum, just as they had sung your praise earlier, they were beset upon by apologists and Jerry Krishnas, guys like that insufferable fool Ryu, and Cliff Stamp.

The people that are having a problem, are the same ones who sent you their hard earned money, not some mysterious outsiders. What they want is the quality of knife that made the name Busse Combat a great one. It is obvious that with the great growth you have experienced, there have been some changes made, not all of them have been good.

 

Jerry, since you mentioned my name I will add that the thread on our forum speaks for itself. Remember, all of this got started because of a blanket and untruthful statement made by one of your fans, and then you chose to post and ask what the ruckus was about. Everyone told you and you got upset. Like I said, it's all in the thread on our forums so my points do not have to be made again.

As far as your blades go, I actually like them and consider them to be good quality. They just don't fit what we do and they are by no means the leader in extreme performance. No one is "out to get" Busse Knives. You have a market niche and that's great, but they are not everything your followers claim them to be. That has been my argument from day one of this ordeal. Again, it's all in the thread.

Jeff Randall