larry harley
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The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
Test: Vanadis 4 vs. Infi vs. Vascowear ...
- Thread starter mark23
- Start date
Thanks Cliff for backing up my points, you've been doing that quite well lately. At least I know now that you are not a completely baptised member of the cult, maybe sprinkled but not fully dunked 
I may be "asking for behavior from others" that I'm not doing myself, BUT I have never made the claim of being the undisputed king of anything either. Big difference. The RTAK is just an old 79 dollar mediocre machete/sheath knife that works when you swing it - might even break if it gets put in a vice and bent. Probably wouldn't beat any fancy knife for any particular chore, sort of ugly to look at, and made out of that plain-jane 1095 steel that anyone could probably make. It gets a little rough looking when you actually use it for days at a time. There's probably cheaper knives that are better and more expensive knives that are worse, but we'll probably just keep on making them just the same.
Hell, the more I think about it the more I think I'm going to give mine away and buy me one of them fancy knives. Then I can stand tall on a previously cleared hilltop, raise my new -looking piece of steel, and say "Behold! I am commanding the undisputed king of PERFORMANCE and I only have two more payments to go before she's all mine! Of course after the photos are taken I'll oil her up and put it back in the box....at least until I get the title.
I may be "asking for behavior from others" that I'm not doing myself, BUT I have never made the claim of being the undisputed king of anything either. Big difference. The RTAK is just an old 79 dollar mediocre machete/sheath knife that works when you swing it - might even break if it gets put in a vice and bent. Probably wouldn't beat any fancy knife for any particular chore, sort of ugly to look at, and made out of that plain-jane 1095 steel that anyone could probably make. It gets a little rough looking when you actually use it for days at a time. There's probably cheaper knives that are better and more expensive knives that are worse, but we'll probably just keep on making them just the same.
Hell, the more I think about it the more I think I'm going to give mine away and buy me one of them fancy knives. Then I can stand tall on a previously cleared hilltop, raise my new -looking piece of steel, and say "Behold! I am commanding the undisputed king of PERFORMANCE and I only have two more payments to go before she's all mine! Of course after the photos are taken I'll oil her up and put it back in the box....at least until I get the title.
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Jeff, I'm not quite sure of this, but are you being facetious?
Originally posted by Keith Montgomery
Jeff, I'm not quite sure of this, but are you being facetious?
Talk about screwing up a post...don't know how that double posting happened.
On the 3rd paragraph, yes. Of course, if we still need to clear that hill for photos I'm willing to grab a machete and help out
I'm being dead honest on the 2nd paragraph. There's nothing special about the RTAK, execpt for the fact it works. You could carry a 5 dollar Tramontina and a 30 dollar KaBar and do the same work cheaper. Or you could buy a Camillus BK9 and have a better chopper, or you could carry a 250+ dollar Busse and a 5 dollar Tramontina and cover a lot of ground. The RTAK will do it all but it's no undisputed king of anything. The Busse won't break if you're prying 2x6s off the side of the barn, the RTAK probably will. The Busse won't clean slice most vegetation we go in, the RTAK will, so will the 5 dollar Tramontina. The Busse will probably kick the RTAK's ass chopping through large cuts of wood, but my GB small forrester's axe (70 dollars and compact) will eat the Busse alive, just like Jerry's Ginsu knife will murder my RTAK slicing tomatoes. I know this is comparing apples to oranges BUT the point I'm trying to make before everyone goes ballistic, is picking tools for the job are the only way to go. When's the last time anyone had to build a log cabin to survive? So I don't need the GB or the Busse for most wilderness work. To be real honest with you, I can get by in the South and in Latin America on a Tramontina machete just as good as our RTAK or a Busse.
As I have said before, I like Busse knives. I also like Corvettes. Will I spend the money for either of them to complete a task (driving from point A to point B or general wilderness work)? No, I get by just find in my Toyota Tacmoa (non- 4WD) pickup, and cheaper knives. Busse obviously has a good market for his knives and I support that, but it's pure BS to hype them as being the undisputed king of performace since performance has many variables. They could very well be the king of specific tests. No questioining that, but they are NOT an undisputed king of performance when it comes to other tasks, so I suggest buying a tool to fit the task.
The poster on the Busse thread wanted to know my grounds for determining a fair overall performance test, I told him and never heard back.
Originally posted by Keith Montgomery
Jeff, I'm not quite sure of this, but are you being facetious?
On the 3rd paragraph, yes. Of course, if we still need to clear that hill for photos I'm willing to grab a machete and help out
I'm being dead honest on the 2nd paragraph. There's nothing special about the RTAK, execpt for the fact it works. You could carry a 5 dollar Tramontina and a 30 dollar KaBar and do the same work cheaper. Or you could buy a Camillus BK9 and have a better chopper, or you could carry a 250+ dollar Busse and a 5 dollar Tramontina and cover a lot of ground. The RTAK will do it all but it's no undisputed king of anything. The Busse won't break if you're prying 2x6s off the side of the barn, the RTAK probably will. The Busse won't clean slice most vegetation we go in, the RTAK will, so will the 5 dollar Tramontina. The Busse will probably kick the RTAK's ass chopping through large cuts of wood, but my GB small forrester's axe (70 dollars and compact) will eat the Busse alive, just like Jerry's Ginsu knife will murder my RTAK slicing tomatoes. I know this is comparing apples to oranges BUT the point I'm trying to make before everyone goes ballistic, is picking tools for the job are the only way to go. When's the last time anyone had to build a log cabin to survive? So I don't need the GB or the Busse for most wilderness work. To be real honest with you, I can get by in the South and in Latin America on a Tramontina machete just as good as our RTAK or a Busse.
As I have said before, I like Busse knives. I also like Corvettes. Will I spend the money for either of them to complete a task (driving from point A to point B or general wilderness work)? No, I get by just find in my Toyota Tacmoa (non- 4WD) pickup, and cheaper knives. Busse obviously has a good market for his knives and I support that, but it's pure BS to hype them as being the undisputed king of performace since performance has many variables. They could very well be the king of specific tests. No questioining that, but they are NOT an undisputed king of performance when it comes to other tasks, so I suggest buying a tool to fit the task.
The poster on the Busse thread wanted to know my grounds for determining a fair overall performance test, I told him and never heard back.
uh...this thread sort of died. Damn Blues, you killed another one.
Cliff Stamp
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Jeff :
Read your reviews from the perspective of the same individual who you commented could be mislead by the various statements on Busse performance. While it may be obvious to you, it might not be to them that they are better off with a simple machete, or a heavier bowie/parang. If you truely wanted to protect the consumer as you critize Busse for not doing, you would put descriptions in your reviews of the downsides of the blades, and in what fields of usage other blades would do better.
Busse (the company) is very specific about performance, "...undisputed leader in extreme performance knives". They also take it one step further with a clear defination of what is meant by extreme performance by a dozen or so simple tests. Considering that it is difficult to even get exact simple spec's (geometry for example) out of most manufacturers, this is a huge leap for Busse. There is no need for confusion about what the knives are designed to do and what their abilities are in those fields if the buyer just does a few minutes research on the net, or spends a few minutes on the phone.
[many others do the same of course, Spydero, Fallkniven and Buck all have clear perforance specifics published as do many customer makers, Fowler, Wilson, Boye etc. ]
You are complaining about the lack of performance information by the company which pretty much is at the top of the list when it comes to describing the expected performance of the blade, both with a clear description and a guarantee of its existance. TOPS, which you have promoted on numerous occasions, makes just as strong statments (best tactical knife), with no description at all of the performance criteria that this is based on. Yet I have never seen you apply the same vision to them that you focused on Busse. Lots of others do as well, almost every machete company for example claims to make the best machete, but in reality they all have something to offer. Quite frankly Ontario's performance claims dwarfs Busse :
Yet there are no complaints from you about this obvious over promotion, which obviosuly doesn't agree with your above description of the Ontario RTAK :
The real problem in regards to Busse hype, and most knife hype in general is in the secondary market. Most inflation happens from someone just wanting to do a "favor" for a maker which causes them to slightly exaggerates some usage. This tends to snowball. I have recieved emails quoting performance that I was supposed to have made that were far beyond anything I have said. Are the comments made by some Busse fans fairly extreme. Yes, but that kind of secondary overpromotion exists for pretty much all knives.
Again, Busse is one of the few manufacturers who actively combats this with specific performance data which obviously should set the expectation. Ideally I would like to see makers/manufacturers actively control hype in the secondary market, but realistically this isn't going to happen. If you are selling a product are you actually going to step in and downplay someone giving you free promotion.
-Cliff
Read your reviews from the perspective of the same individual who you commented could be mislead by the various statements on Busse performance. While it may be obvious to you, it might not be to them that they are better off with a simple machete, or a heavier bowie/parang. If you truely wanted to protect the consumer as you critize Busse for not doing, you would put descriptions in your reviews of the downsides of the blades, and in what fields of usage other blades would do better.
Busse (the company) is very specific about performance, "...undisputed leader in extreme performance knives". They also take it one step further with a clear defination of what is meant by extreme performance by a dozen or so simple tests. Considering that it is difficult to even get exact simple spec's (geometry for example) out of most manufacturers, this is a huge leap for Busse. There is no need for confusion about what the knives are designed to do and what their abilities are in those fields if the buyer just does a few minutes research on the net, or spends a few minutes on the phone.
[many others do the same of course, Spydero, Fallkniven and Buck all have clear perforance specifics published as do many customer makers, Fowler, Wilson, Boye etc. ]
You are complaining about the lack of performance information by the company which pretty much is at the top of the list when it comes to describing the expected performance of the blade, both with a clear description and a guarantee of its existance. TOPS, which you have promoted on numerous occasions, makes just as strong statments (best tactical knife), with no description at all of the performance criteria that this is based on. Yet I have never seen you apply the same vision to them that you focused on Busse. Lots of others do as well, almost every machete company for example claims to make the best machete, but in reality they all have something to offer. Quite frankly Ontario's performance claims dwarfs Busse :
Yet there are no complaints from you about this obvious over promotion, which obviosuly doesn't agree with your above description of the Ontario RTAK :
The real problem in regards to Busse hype, and most knife hype in general is in the secondary market. Most inflation happens from someone just wanting to do a "favor" for a maker which causes them to slightly exaggerates some usage. This tends to snowball. I have recieved emails quoting performance that I was supposed to have made that were far beyond anything I have said. Are the comments made by some Busse fans fairly extreme. Yes, but that kind of secondary overpromotion exists for pretty much all knives.
Again, Busse is one of the few manufacturers who actively combats this with specific performance data which obviously should set the expectation. Ideally I would like to see makers/manufacturers actively control hype in the secondary market, but realistically this isn't going to happen. If you are selling a product are you actually going to step in and downplay someone giving you free promotion.
-Cliff
Hey Cliff, I know you're trying to answer for Busse as you always do, but Jerry came over on our forum and asked what all the ruckus was about. After everyone told him he has yet to address the issues that HE asked about. Plus I asked him a simple question about his company and what his definition of extreme performance was and he has avoided the question. Want to see for yourself? Go to
http://www.jungletraining.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1065
I'm just asking Jerry to go on the record with my simple question. It's really quite easy and could be answered in a couple of sentences if he chose to do so, but me thinks he doesn't really want to and allow folks like you to answer for him. At least he has some deniability when fools make foolish statements on behalf of Busse.
You'll have to sign up to see it but you're use to typing. Strange that you are trying to answer questions for Busse when he asked what the problem was.
Jeff
http://www.jungletraining.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1065
I'm just asking Jerry to go on the record with my simple question. It's really quite easy and could be answered in a couple of sentences if he chose to do so, but me thinks he doesn't really want to and allow folks like you to answer for him. At least he has some deniability when fools make foolish statements on behalf of Busse.
You'll have to sign up to see it but you're use to typing. Strange that you are trying to answer questions for Busse when he asked what the problem was.
Jeff
That is quite an interesting thread over there on Jeff's forum. Some interesting points are raised - mainly this: Busses, as excellent as they are as choppers, edge holders and bending and returning to true, don't cut as well as some other knives in real-world situations. I love Busse knives, but I agree with that observation: that's why I always have at least one other knife for cutting.
Another observation made there is that the Busse forum here is a "cult" where criticism is "shouted down". I can't say I agree with that, but if so many folks think it's true, and some pretty good folks post over there, maybe there's something to it.
As to jerry ducking the question of defining "extreme performance", as of the time I wrote this it's true he hasn't given a definition, but I think it's unfair [or at least premature]to accuse him of "ducking".
As far as the criticism of Cliff is concerned, we've been through that elsewhere and I have nothing to add to what I've said before.
The thread is worth checking out.
Vanadis 4 sounds very interesting. If it's on par with D2 it's a very good metal indeed. I'd love to hear more about it.
Another observation made there is that the Busse forum here is a "cult" where criticism is "shouted down". I can't say I agree with that, but if so many folks think it's true, and some pretty good folks post over there, maybe there's something to it.
As to jerry ducking the question of defining "extreme performance", as of the time I wrote this it's true he hasn't given a definition, but I think it's unfair [or at least premature]to accuse him of "ducking".
As far as the criticism of Cliff is concerned, we've been through that elsewhere and I have nothing to add to what I've said before.
The thread is worth checking out.
Vanadis 4 sounds very interesting. If it's on par with D2 it's a very good metal indeed. I'd love to hear more about it.
My apologies to all for implying the Jerry was "ducking" my question. In my mind he was, but since I posted that on this forum he came over to the thread and gave a lengthy response, and even answered my question.
HJK, I agree on the Cliff issue and it's no use debating it here.
http://www.jungletraining.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1065
The above thread on our forum does have a lot of interesting reading conecrning all these issues, plus a lot of "known" personalities on Bladeforums have added their comments. Although some would have you believe that mud is being thrown there, I suggest you take a look at the honest questions and answers that have taken place, by folks who never engage in any arguing here on Bladeforums. Good stuff and it sheds a lot of light on this never ending struggle for the best knife and what qualities make it up.
Several folks have emailed us about this being a private forum and having to sign up just to read this thread, so we have turned off the members only format for a while to see how that works out. So if you want to take a look feel free to just click and go.
Jeff
HJK, I agree on the Cliff issue and it's no use debating it here.
http://www.jungletraining.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1065
The above thread on our forum does have a lot of interesting reading conecrning all these issues, plus a lot of "known" personalities on Bladeforums have added their comments. Although some would have you believe that mud is being thrown there, I suggest you take a look at the honest questions and answers that have taken place, by folks who never engage in any arguing here on Bladeforums. Good stuff and it sheds a lot of light on this never ending struggle for the best knife and what qualities make it up.
Several folks have emailed us about this being a private forum and having to sign up just to read this thread, so we have turned off the members only format for a while to see how that works out. So if you want to take a look feel free to just click and go.
Jeff
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- 905
To Jeff Randall
I'm just posting my experience with and why I choose Busse Combat(Also, I don't like being referred to as a cultist).
I've purchased 3 knives from Jerry, never had a problem, all 3 came hair poppin sharp (I know sharp) and my SHE and BME have very pointy tips (don't remember about the NO, I chaged the edge).
I use my knives for backpack camping. They see wood (thick and thin), food, bushes and dirt. I've owned a TOPS Anaconda 9 original run, Chris Reeve Project 1, and Becker Brute (Someday I'd like to have a Simonich SRT Trail knife, in S30-V of coarse.). I find the Busse to be a better all around knife, sharp enough to cut anything I put under it, easy to control and easy to sharpen. With limits I don't have to worry about reaching. Plus with the warranty, I don't worry about who does what with it.
About the cult mentality on the forums, I have never seen anyone get attacked on any Busse forum. My first post stated how i didn't like the handle, no one flamed at me, but I did state it's advantages along with the disadvantages.
I am an educated buyer, I knew exactly what I was ordering, and it exceded my expectations as far as edge, tip, and all around usefulness and quality. I understood what Combat knife means, why can't others (Are Americans really getting this dumb?)? If people are buying Busse's to cut veggies and do game work, I have something to say, Groove Master. If you buy a SHE or BME to cut veggies and do game work, I have something else to say, Idiot.
As far as Cliff Stamp is concerned, you have to take his testing for what it ultimately is, to find out the durability of a blade. If I want to know the limits of a knife's stregth, I look for a Cliff Stamp review. He broke a couple Becker Patrol Machete's and it didn't stop me from buying one.
It seems a lot of complaints come from people that don't know how to shop for their needs, and other complaints that deal with personal preferences. The issues of not getting what one wants, quality control, late shipping and anything else like that, I can't comment on because it's all been good to me. I would always recommend speaking to Jerry (or anyone else you may have a problem with), call up and talk, much more can be accomplished this way. Forums and e-mails are no way to really communicate with another person.
Jeff, I'm not sure how the above will be taken, or this for that matter. I will say I always enjoy your input on this forum, but I'll also say that the link to your forum and Jerry's thread specifically, are not a good character reference for you or the other members there.
I'm just posting my experience with and why I choose Busse Combat(Also, I don't like being referred to as a cultist).
I've purchased 3 knives from Jerry, never had a problem, all 3 came hair poppin sharp (I know sharp) and my SHE and BME have very pointy tips (don't remember about the NO, I chaged the edge).
I use my knives for backpack camping. They see wood (thick and thin), food, bushes and dirt. I've owned a TOPS Anaconda 9 original run, Chris Reeve Project 1, and Becker Brute (Someday I'd like to have a Simonich SRT Trail knife, in S30-V of coarse.). I find the Busse to be a better all around knife, sharp enough to cut anything I put under it, easy to control and easy to sharpen. With limits I don't have to worry about reaching. Plus with the warranty, I don't worry about who does what with it.
About the cult mentality on the forums, I have never seen anyone get attacked on any Busse forum. My first post stated how i didn't like the handle, no one flamed at me, but I did state it's advantages along with the disadvantages.
I am an educated buyer, I knew exactly what I was ordering, and it exceded my expectations as far as edge, tip, and all around usefulness and quality. I understood what Combat knife means, why can't others (Are Americans really getting this dumb?)? If people are buying Busse's to cut veggies and do game work, I have something to say, Groove Master. If you buy a SHE or BME to cut veggies and do game work, I have something else to say, Idiot.
As far as Cliff Stamp is concerned, you have to take his testing for what it ultimately is, to find out the durability of a blade. If I want to know the limits of a knife's stregth, I look for a Cliff Stamp review. He broke a couple Becker Patrol Machete's and it didn't stop me from buying one.
It seems a lot of complaints come from people that don't know how to shop for their needs, and other complaints that deal with personal preferences. The issues of not getting what one wants, quality control, late shipping and anything else like that, I can't comment on because it's all been good to me. I would always recommend speaking to Jerry (or anyone else you may have a problem with), call up and talk, much more can be accomplished this way. Forums and e-mails are no way to really communicate with another person.
Jeff, I'm not sure how the above will be taken, or this for that matter. I will say I always enjoy your input on this forum, but I'll also say that the link to your forum and Jerry's thread specifically, are not a good character reference for you or the other members there.
- Joined
- Oct 2, 1998
- Messages
- 5,461
I am up for another LIVE test at teh Blade Show.
Jerry and I did the test of the #9 LIVE in front of many people. I even did a few of the cuts to make sure there was no tricks involved and the #9 was pulled from regular stock. Posted the results here.
Lynn Thompson turned down the offer and was asked and told about the test with Jerry standing right beside me at the Shot Show and Sal Glesser a witness as well.
I would lovew to do another live test. Heck I will even challenge Jerry with one of my China made knives. At least we can all laugh when I get beat but at leat I have balls to do it
Jerry and I did the test of the #9 LIVE in front of many people. I even did a few of the cuts to make sure there was no tricks involved and the #9 was pulled from regular stock. Posted the results here.
Lynn Thompson turned down the offer and was asked and told about the test with Jerry standing right beside me at the Shot Show and Sal Glesser a witness as well.
I would lovew to do another live test. Heck I will even challenge Jerry with one of my China made knives. At least we can all laugh when I get beat but at leat I have balls to do it
Mike, maybe all of this is just gossip, but didn't Jerry turn down a free hanging rope cutting contest against Lynn Thompson? Seems like that is a good judge of efficiency performance...just wondering if that was true, and if not do you think Jerry would be up for that contest if Lynn was agreeable?
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- Jul 22, 2002
- Messages
- 905
Jeff, well put. I'm glad you didn't take the character reference remark as an insult because it was not meant to be one.
"It performed great when chopping through trees, but was a little better than useless when it came to cutting secondary jungle growth, dressing animals, and general slicing chores requiring efficiency."
This is hard for me to comment on because I use a Patrol Machete for "secondary jungle growth", I don't dress animals (but knowing my Busse's if I had to I could, it might be a mess though) and as far as general slicing chores..... , again, mine are sharp enough to do this without complaint, efficiently.
"What about the less experienced users that get sold on something becuase of illogical claims, only to find out it really doesn't work well once it's in the wilds."
This is what I refer to as an uneducated buyer. No manufacturer should be held responsible for a customer who puchases something soley on hype. I think the gonvernment mentality of, don't think, we'll do it for you is effecting America big time. People need to take responsibility for their actions. All the illogical claims I've seen, mentioned things that no outdoorsman should base his or her purchase on. An outdoorsman has the option of making sure he or she has the proper tool for the job. Military personel don't really have this option and they are not solely in the wilderness either. Urban warfare is the most serious form of war (not that they aren't all serious), in this situation you bet your ass your going to want a sharpened prybar. Which brings me back to the name of the company, Busse Combat Knives. What part of Combat don't people understand. If the name was Busse Wilderness Knives I would rally against Jerry myself.
"Please read Hoodoo's and Blues post concerning that issue, not to mention others that tried the "calling up and talking" route."
I did read them and didn't want to comment, but I will now. First I want to say these situations seem to be few and far between and if I wasn't reading it myself would not believe it. From an outside point of view they both attacked Jerry, every thing they posted could have been done in a far more constructive manner, Buzzbait summed it up perfectly. I don't understand Hoodoo, why would he keep buying Busse's if there were problems? Blues's post wasn't as hostile (to me at least) but he makes comments that I would have vented to Jerry on the phone first, then posted. (Maybe this was done?) I have never had a problem getting through to Jerry, If he's busy, he's busy, running a growing business is a bitch. So I don't buy the can't get through routine. Patience is always a good thing to exercise. If a situation like any of the ones posted happened to me, I would straighten it out with Jerry privately. Knowing Jerry the problem would be fixed, it might be ugly but a solution can allways be reached.
"It performed great when chopping through trees, but was a little better than useless when it came to cutting secondary jungle growth, dressing animals, and general slicing chores requiring efficiency."
This is hard for me to comment on because I use a Patrol Machete for "secondary jungle growth", I don't dress animals (but knowing my Busse's if I had to I could, it might be a mess though) and as far as general slicing chores..... , again, mine are sharp enough to do this without complaint, efficiently.
"What about the less experienced users that get sold on something becuase of illogical claims, only to find out it really doesn't work well once it's in the wilds."
This is what I refer to as an uneducated buyer. No manufacturer should be held responsible for a customer who puchases something soley on hype. I think the gonvernment mentality of, don't think, we'll do it for you is effecting America big time. People need to take responsibility for their actions. All the illogical claims I've seen, mentioned things that no outdoorsman should base his or her purchase on. An outdoorsman has the option of making sure he or she has the proper tool for the job. Military personel don't really have this option and they are not solely in the wilderness either. Urban warfare is the most serious form of war (not that they aren't all serious), in this situation you bet your ass your going to want a sharpened prybar. Which brings me back to the name of the company, Busse Combat Knives. What part of Combat don't people understand. If the name was Busse Wilderness Knives I would rally against Jerry myself.
"Please read Hoodoo's and Blues post concerning that issue, not to mention others that tried the "calling up and talking" route."
I did read them and didn't want to comment, but I will now. First I want to say these situations seem to be few and far between and if I wasn't reading it myself would not believe it. From an outside point of view they both attacked Jerry, every thing they posted could have been done in a far more constructive manner, Buzzbait summed it up perfectly. I don't understand Hoodoo, why would he keep buying Busse's if there were problems? Blues's post wasn't as hostile (to me at least) but he makes comments that I would have vented to Jerry on the phone first, then posted. (Maybe this was done?) I have never had a problem getting through to Jerry, If he's busy, he's busy, running a growing business is a bitch. So I don't buy the can't get through routine. Patience is always a good thing to exercise. If a situation like any of the ones posted happened to me, I would straighten it out with Jerry privately. Knowing Jerry the problem would be fixed, it might be ugly but a solution can allways be reached.
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
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- 17,562
larry harley :
An edge can't be "too thick" or "too thin", as geometry is task specific. You have to define the use and the desired expected behavior before the geometry can be labeled right or wrong. How much durability do you want and how much cutting ability are you willing to sacrifice. I have blades with edges that are ground to 3-4 degrees per side wich are perfectly robust enough for what I use them for (rope, cardboard and food), but they are obviously not suitable to try and cut hard plastics, whittle on knotty wood, any kind of chopping, cut any metal (snip wire) and will take severe damage on even light bone contacts. I have used large bowie class blades with edges of ~8 degrees per side. These are not suitable for hard wood chopping, but are perfectly fine for light vegetation and misc. cutting. I also have bowies with ~11 degree bevels that I use when chopping soft woods, and occasional knots (surrounded by clear wood), but won't handle frozen wood. If you put a ~25 degree bevel on a vegetable knife then that is a pretty odd choice, however on a cleaver it is pretty much what is needed if you don't want visible damage.
In regards to the comparisons made in cutting light vegetation, the point should also be made that all that is required of a Busse (or any other large full flat ground blade), to function well for such work (aside from reach issues), is an edge modification which can easily be done by the user. Specifically you would want to adjust the angle down as the durability requirement is fairly low for such work. How far to go depends on your skill, physical ability and the exact type of vegetation. It should also be clarified that all these machetes which out cut such bowie class blades in general are modified by the users. If both are used NIB, the high end bowie blades will generally due much better. Why? Because machetes in general come with very poor edges. They often have very thick burnt burrs (~1mm+), some with very obtuse secondary edge bevels (35+ degrees per side).
I have used machetes from Ontario, Tramontina, Barteaux, Martindale, Diamond, Cold Steel (just handled), and many unknown brands (no markings of any kind). The NIB performance is usually very low because of the very poor edges. They can't cut light vegetation at all because the sharpness is very low, just a few percent of a freshly sharpened knife. I have never seen one which is as sharp as the dullest high end production knife I have handled. Now if you clean the edges up on the machete and leave the bowie unmodified and cut through vegetation ~1"+ thick the machete does *much* better, assuming the angle was ground decently acute which often isn't the case. But this is hardly an unbaised comparison. If you adjust the angle on the bowie its performance will leap ahead as well. And if the machete is the general type with no primary grind or no distal taper, with it and the bowie at similar edge angles, the bowie out cuts it in general as the edge is thinner for ~1" in height due to the primary grind. This is nothing new, just thick vs thin, considering the important aspects, the spine doesn't matter if the material never "sees" it (it would have to be that thick [along the cut path] for the spine thickness to matter).
Getting specific, the 1/8" machetes like Ontario are a full 1/8" thick behind the edge. Even the heavier bowies are only ~0.050" which is less than half as thick, and most only run at ~0.040 which is like a third of the machete thickness. Thus such knives actually have a *much* thinner edge than most machetes. As well, since the steel on such high end knives is harder and of higher quality the edge can be made more acute than on the machetes and still have the same level of durability. This isn't a concern on light vegetation though as its can't roll the edge anyway. But if you are using the blade in a more overall roll it is a concern as it directly effects the limit of the cutting ability given a specific durablity requirement.
-Cliff
An edge can't be "too thick" or "too thin", as geometry is task specific. You have to define the use and the desired expected behavior before the geometry can be labeled right or wrong. How much durability do you want and how much cutting ability are you willing to sacrifice. I have blades with edges that are ground to 3-4 degrees per side wich are perfectly robust enough for what I use them for (rope, cardboard and food), but they are obviously not suitable to try and cut hard plastics, whittle on knotty wood, any kind of chopping, cut any metal (snip wire) and will take severe damage on even light bone contacts. I have used large bowie class blades with edges of ~8 degrees per side. These are not suitable for hard wood chopping, but are perfectly fine for light vegetation and misc. cutting. I also have bowies with ~11 degree bevels that I use when chopping soft woods, and occasional knots (surrounded by clear wood), but won't handle frozen wood. If you put a ~25 degree bevel on a vegetable knife then that is a pretty odd choice, however on a cleaver it is pretty much what is needed if you don't want visible damage.
In regards to the comparisons made in cutting light vegetation, the point should also be made that all that is required of a Busse (or any other large full flat ground blade), to function well for such work (aside from reach issues), is an edge modification which can easily be done by the user. Specifically you would want to adjust the angle down as the durability requirement is fairly low for such work. How far to go depends on your skill, physical ability and the exact type of vegetation. It should also be clarified that all these machetes which out cut such bowie class blades in general are modified by the users. If both are used NIB, the high end bowie blades will generally due much better. Why? Because machetes in general come with very poor edges. They often have very thick burnt burrs (~1mm+), some with very obtuse secondary edge bevels (35+ degrees per side).
I have used machetes from Ontario, Tramontina, Barteaux, Martindale, Diamond, Cold Steel (just handled), and many unknown brands (no markings of any kind). The NIB performance is usually very low because of the very poor edges. They can't cut light vegetation at all because the sharpness is very low, just a few percent of a freshly sharpened knife. I have never seen one which is as sharp as the dullest high end production knife I have handled. Now if you clean the edges up on the machete and leave the bowie unmodified and cut through vegetation ~1"+ thick the machete does *much* better, assuming the angle was ground decently acute which often isn't the case. But this is hardly an unbaised comparison. If you adjust the angle on the bowie its performance will leap ahead as well. And if the machete is the general type with no primary grind or no distal taper, with it and the bowie at similar edge angles, the bowie out cuts it in general as the edge is thinner for ~1" in height due to the primary grind. This is nothing new, just thick vs thin, considering the important aspects, the spine doesn't matter if the material never "sees" it (it would have to be that thick [along the cut path] for the spine thickness to matter).
Getting specific, the 1/8" machetes like Ontario are a full 1/8" thick behind the edge. Even the heavier bowies are only ~0.050" which is less than half as thick, and most only run at ~0.040 which is like a third of the machete thickness. Thus such knives actually have a *much* thinner edge than most machetes. As well, since the steel on such high end knives is harder and of higher quality the edge can be made more acute than on the machetes and still have the same level of durability. This isn't a concern on light vegetation though as its can't roll the edge anyway. But if you are using the blade in a more overall roll it is a concern as it directly effects the limit of the cutting ability given a specific durablity requirement.
-Cliff
Couldn't let it die, could you? In a strange way I can appreciate that