Testing standards for knives

Joined
Dec 14, 1998
Messages
4,870
Many years ago some folks came up with some tests for knives. Over time these tests have changed a little . Many ABS hammer in have performance tests ect and the JS and MS tests
are in stone. These tests I respect.

My question to you the knifemaker is this.
Since knives has a more focused purpose now days what kind of tests do you feel a knife should have to pass. Do you feel there should be requirements for each type of knife?
Please list each type of knife and the tests you feel should be performed to pass .
I feel as knifemakers we a qualified to determine these test requirements.

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Web Site At www.darrelralph.com

[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 06-28-2000).]
 
Whoa Darrel, this is a tough one. Here's the rub I encounter on all my knives, hunters, bird & trout, fighters, and just ordinary utility knives. Everyone who buys one has his own idea of what it should be and do.

As you know there are always tradeoffs between various attributes, especially in edges. For example, scary sharp versus wear resistance and durability. What cuts rope and wood real well doesn't necessarily do as well on other materials. I've never found anything that is quite as good as putting the knife in the hands of someone who knows how to use a knife for its intended putposes, and see how it does over time, like a year or more. It's certainly not a fast process, but it's an honest process. Artificial testing just doesn't compare to this, in my opinion.

I don't make any knives for the purpose of cutting wood. Most everything I make is for use on flesh or bone or hide. Fighters are also expected to deal with incidental contact with steel (as in blades), brass (as in zippers), leather or denim (as in jackets), and a good bit of general abuse as is a normal part of conflict. If they cut hanging paper or empty coke cans, that's cool but not really a measure of their utility. In truth, it is more a measure of the person wielding the blade. I still can't cut one of those damn coke cans in two, but some of my customers have done it with the same knives with which I failed. So I have my fighers tested by people who know fighters and are highly trained in their use. What they do with them is their choice, and most do different things. If they listed up everything they did and we posted it here, most everyone who tried to duplicate what they did would fail, because it is only partly the knife. Still, what they do is the real measure of the knife, since it excludes questions of competence. So they do all these marvelous things and I tell my customers they should not expect to be able to do the same. Besides that, I tailor each and every fighter to the specific preferences of each buyer. More point, more belly, more sharp, more durable, more balance forward, more balance neutral, more guard, more concealable, more, more, more... Sometimes less. Which of those do you test, and what does that mean with respect to the others. That's really what "custom" is about.

On hunters, I resharpen about 30 blades every year for customers. They send them back, and the only thing I charge is feedback on performance. It did 5 deer, it got through an elk, it was not as sharp as I would like it after only 2 deer, the blade tended to accumulate fat, I want a little more sharpness at the point, I broke the point playing Mumblypeg, I broke the handle cracking walnuts on a rock, whatever. I've given about 5 hunters to professional hunters, who give me constant feedback. I have no clue what they do with the knives; I only know what they tell me about their impressions. In 2 instances I took the knives back and gave them something different, more in tune with how they like to skin an animal or how they like to pop the hip bone out of a socket or split a brisket or skin or...

It seems to me this is what custom knives are about. If I built knives to satisfy a series of artificial tests, it is certain they will not satisfy many of these customers, and they are my principle (read, ONLY) concern.

The real test, in my mind, is in the integrity of the maker. The guarantee should be dead simple. You get the knife, you use the knife, if you don't like the knife, I'll fix it to better suit your requirements or buy it back, if I can't fix it to your complete satisfaction, I'll buy it back. No risk. No hype. No Nonsense.

Sorry that I didn't answer your question, but that is my view of how this should work.

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Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com

[This message has been edited by GaKnife (edited 06-28-2000).]
 
Jerry. A maker that does not back up his product that way will, in the not too distant future, be a former maker. Every time we makers turn out a good product the customer may or may not tell anyone about it, but let us turn out a POS and the whole world hears about it.

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old pete
 
Jerry
Your point is a good one. Pete yours is a no brainer for a good maker. Great point
This is about custom BUT What I am after is this.
For each knife style and type
I feel we need to establish a list of tested the knife will perform on delivery. Yes I uderstnd balance durability. BUT I dont understand chopping steel rods and concrete.
This is what I am trying to eliminate.
The perpose is to nail down a good list.
I understnad a feild test will never compare to BS test. But as you and I and others know its best to send them for real testing . I do this so I can get the real deal. But from that I establish best sharpening angles, ect for the knife in question.
This knife will do this:
1. Cut Rope
2. skin animals
ect.
The custom aspect comes in here as you mentioned . But I feel these should be parameters that are just cut and dry for a list of what to expect. The custom aspect can be an add on for the maker at the bottom of the page :]
Like I will balance at a design point , more clip , handle materisl ect...

This post is to stop the BS testing that is going on . NO PRYING is a good one for it will not do this unless it is a entry tool ect..
Maybe a check list.


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Web Site At www.darrelralph.com
 
It occurs to me that there are several issues here that get intermingled.

The ABS tests are great tests for determining that a smith has mastered his steel and that his blades perform in a set of tests that measure some qualities of the product. They are very valid tests for the types of knives produced by forging. But there are certainly some qualities they don't measure, such as cutting things that are not a part of the tests or how the blade might fare under certain conditions other than trying to break one in half, like they do.
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Even so, there is no measure of the other knives produced by the same smiths, just as there is no measure that any custom knife you might evaluate is the same as the one somebody else might get. I think it still gets back to that integrity thing.

What confuses this issue for the custom knifemakers are those tests performed on factory knives that do indeed measure qualities of each particular model by each manufacturer, and to which all other knives of that model should be the same. Hopefully, their quality control is such that they are all the same. Most are laser cut, machine ground, and use CNC cut or molded parts, so they usually are pretty consistent.

Custom knives are rarely identical, and even then are subject to normal human variances.

Speaking for me alone, I deliberately make every knife a little different as a way of defining my knives as customs. If someone said, "make me one like his", I'm just not capable of doing it. Now maybe this is just my problem and it's what gets me so agitated about this testing thing. Tell me what you want the knife to do. I'll build it to do that or tell you I can't (that happens with about 10% of the folks who order knives from me). I'll do my very best to make that knife the best there is at doing that thing you described. I even try to make it better than the last knife I made to do the same thing, but it won't be the best knife I can make for doing other things. If someone wants a do all be all knife, I'll do my best to make one, with the understanding established up front that it will not do as well at any one thing as a purpose built blade.

Customs are customs. OK, I'll get off the stage and let Tom ahve his say now.
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Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
 
Woops, I posted that Darrel, just as you were. I'll try harder and come back with some thoughts along the line of what you're thinking. How about a couple examples?

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Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
 
Geez Jerry is long-winded
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Ha ha, just kidding. I couldn't get it out any better than what Jerry said, and I don't want to try.

In essence of trying to stop some of the testing that is being done, I think it would be easier to make a list of what a knife will NOT do:

Don't pry open man-hole covers

Don't act like O.J. with it.

If you want to chop down a tree, use an ax.

Don't use the knife in one hand with a rock in the other for "pounding."

Don't rap a carbon blade in two wet oil rags and throw it under you truck seat for 6 months.

As far as standardized tests, I don't know if you can do that with anything other than a factory blade. Like Jerry said, every customer might want something a little different. I guess a place to start would be the very basics we all go for depending of the knife:

Edge retention
Ease of resharpening
Weight
Handle fatigue factor
Corrosion resistance
Lines of knife
Pushing (stabbing) grip
Pulling grip
Hand protection

Looking at this list it just hammers home what Jerry has said. There are SO MANY VARIABLES.

Sorry Darrel, I tried.
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On the lighter side.....As far as a standard for other knives and types of knives? Dunno...maybe a Society of North American Knife Engineering Standards (SNAKES) would be formed and certain "standards" could be obtained or required of its members or of different types of knives. Actually, it may not be a bad idea after all....



[This message has been edited by C L Wilkins (edited 06-28-2000).]
 
Some of you guys seem to be a bit squeemish when it comes to toughness or strenght. What I mean is that If I *need* to scale that wall and dont have any approriate bolts, Im going to need the only knife I probably bring to not be breaking. And If Im locked up by someone I need to pry open the door. And also I wont bring an axe to all the places where I need to chop something. So please dont exclude the hardcore extreme toughness factor. I'd love to hear (when I eventually decides to buy a custom knife) for instance "this material wont break, but is not as sharp, this one shaves well but wont be as good for cutting 43 tond of cod, this will bend and return, this cuts leather well but looses edge but not very significantly more than that" and so on.
thanks for starting the thread.
 
I tried to post a message as reply to the test topic, but have to write it again in short: Please dont exclude extreme toughness factor tests. There are many situations where you must depend on your knife not to break, and likely you have brought only one knife. Example: scaling a mountain, prying open a door.
If I were to buy a custom knife I would love to hear things like "this material wont break as easy, but tradeoff is its edge will be dull soon, this one cuts hair very well but if youre going to handle 43 tons of fish then it wont have the correct edge because of..." thanks for the thread.
 
The point here is to try to come up with standards that types of knives will perform and intended use. Just a simple check list will do. As for extreme use heel these are things that happen along the way. I understand sever situations. BUT it should not be reported that a knife failed if it does not perform beyond its intended use.
The maker should issue with the knife a set of standards with the knife. IT should be a short list of intended function.

here's a few
1.Folders should on delivery open and close with a tight lock up and no blade wobble unless its a pin together lock back where a small amount is allowed.
2. Lock engagement should be enough for two light whacks on the spine for liner locks and that style of knife. Lock backs should take a small amount of pressure applied on the blade back to check the lock. Under no circumstance shall there be vertical play in either lock style.

This is the frame I was thinking in. This is more of a technical check list . There should be boxes on each for the knifemaker to check as he tests each function of the knife.
A disclaimer at the bottom of the page for other circumstances. The knives should be good for life but an understanding that knives wear out like cars and other machinery and tools. They are not the holy grail as has been exploited by some in the recent past.

Starting a group of knifemakers who use these spec sheets is a ballsy move.
SNAKES :]
Come on folks we can do better than this.

I understand extreme use also BUT use an enter tool for these purposes. The right tool for the right job.
I am a big fat bastid that does do the "use the handle for a step up" I test this on straight knives to see if my heat treat rc is correct on the handle tang. BUT I would not ok this test unless the knife is a tac tool or entry tool. Then I think the test standard should be that the knife will perform this task. This goes back for intended purpose.



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Web Site At www.darrelralph.com
 
Jerry as for the ABS test . This is a great example of misunderstood hype from folks who dont understand the test. The test is to prove the maker can heat treat. I feel its a good test for the intended purpose.

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Web Site At www.darrelralph.com
 
Darrel, don't get me wrong on the ABS comments. I think those are ideal tests for what they are trying to achieve, which is a test of the maker's competence as a bladesmith. That is in fact what I find appealing about the ABS, even though I am not a smith. Those tests, however, are not necessarily ideal tests for all knives to pass as a validation of their quality and utility.

And maybe that is where we should be thinking. I have long thought that there should be a comparable qualification program for us folks, who are not smiths but use stock removal methods. There could certainly be defined a set of standard tests which would qualify a maker as an apprentise, journeyman or master in this business. They might even be tests similar to those used by the ABS, expanded to include the specific demands on folders, tacticals, hunter/utilities, etc.

This is where I think testing makes a ton of sense in the realm of custom knives. Test the maker. Maybe we should form an AKS, American Knifemakers Society, that establishes these test parameters for each type of knife, then have annual or semiannual testing programs like the ABS.

By giving a specific set of criteria that a knife must meet to qualify the maker at each level, we can then custom build these knives which are designed from the ground up to pass those tests. That, in my mind, is the true test of a custom maker, and I would be delighted to participate in such a program.

As we well know, there are a host of attributes that define a "good" knife that are rarely ever discussed on these forums. Fit, finish, balance, ergonomics, grinds, degree of difficulty, even artistic interpretation are things that often define the value of a custom knife, yet are never mentioned here. Those in addition to performance standards, like the rope cuts, nail cuts, paper cuts, crowbar abuse, etc., etc. would I think make this an interesting challenge and provide meaningful input to someone who is contemplating which maker to use for a particular knife.

Peer review is a wonderful tool and a means of not just being challenged but also for learning how to advance to the next level.

If I'm being long winded here, it's because I am very interested in seeing meaningful measures applied to custom knives and custom knifemakers.

My thoughts...

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Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
 
i've thought the same thing about a stock removal knifemaker association. what about the knifemakers like me and you who have a professional heat treat their knives?
 
ok..its early...just had two cups...I will be serious.....what Darrel is proposing is a GREAT idea....I have seen so many knives misused and broken and blamed on the knifemaker I can not believe it.....Ken Onion has two $1500+ knives in his shop being repaired (read replace the blades) right now do to misuse...super devin thomas stuff with .250" of the tip missing...I gotta admit I pound my knives thru steel locker doors and into concrete and thru quarters and stuff.....but that is for information gathering etc.....like Rob says, Im not going to guarantee anything like that. Darrels idea has a lot of merit and we should work on it.....
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http://www.mayoknives.com


 
Good one Darrel!
Where do you find time to come up with such thought provoking subjects while you are making knives FULL TIME
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I find that the best way to test MY knives is in actual use. I do this by getting them in the hands of people that will use them for their intended purposes, pay attention to what happens and report their findings back to me.
I work full time at a large manufacturing company with many outdoors people, hunters and fisherman. I ALWAYS have knives out on loan, some feel that it's a permenant loan
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In a short time I can get feedback on my kinves performance. MUCH less time than carrying and testing them myself. My "testers" have little or NO regard for returning the knife in pristeen condition. I'm NOT afraid to say that I have had to re-work several of them upon return!! This type of testing primarily with my Hunters has given me some insight as to handle construction and Rc hardness, blade thicknes as well as edge thickness. In addition to ease or dificulty of sharpening, Kydex or leather sheaths and basically. what works, what doesn't.
As far as my Tactical models, I have several LEO's I shoot with at our local range. They have carried, evaluated AND made suggestions to improve my knives as well as the Kydex sheath systems. Last week they took one of my A2 American Ninjas to a seminar and REALY put it through its paces!! This actually generated an order from another LEO at the seminar, more COULD follow. Stabbing it through 55 gallon drums and car doors realy caught peoples attention
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As a stock removal maker, to me the ABS tests are not realy valid. I don't make many knives in the size range for the hanging rope cut. Choppping 2X4's with a Neck Knife is tougher on the user than the knife
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Bending D2, A2 blades at the Rc hardness I make them would not go the required 90 degrees!!! Neither would Talonite!
This is a GOOD thread, I will watch this one!
Neil


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Talonite, new pics, knives in stock!

blackwoodknives.com
 
Hey Guys!
SNAKES! No, actually I couldn't come up with anything else, sorry for the levity, this IS the Shop Talk Forum, I forgot myself
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I believe that one of the most common misuses that I have seen is when a hunter takes a hollow ground skinner and tries to cut then pry the pelvic bone of a deer apart. A very nicely scalloped knife evolves. And, its of course from a bad heat treat, right? Workmanship is one thing but as mentioned in another post, abuse is another. At this point, we are basically stuck. We can't let word get out that we don't stand behing our products. What Darrel has brought up is a very good concept.


C Wilkins
 
I am liking this idea the more I think about it, my biggest concern is taking some of the human element out of it if there is to be some kind of meaningfull rating. If there isnt some measureable, meaningfull rating, the knife breakers will keep breaking knives and saying their tests are the ones that are "knife law" and all knives should be measured by their tests when they actually use a knife very little in the real world. I still mostly rely on customer feedback and real field testing, but I can see where a standard testing procedure could be usefull. The problem I see is millions of possible variables in the different steels, heat treats, edge geometries, grinds, etc etc.

Ill be looking at this thread seriously! :)
 
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