That ONE friend who can't understand...

[sabre cat]

The one thing that comes to my mind is this; if the OP, who's still debating about whether or not to get/gift his friend an upgrade in the knife department, has reservations about potentially gifting his buddy something like an Ontario RAT I/II in D2 steel because he's worried that his friend's uses for said knife combined with his (lack of) maintenance routine for said knife may cause it to corrode and thus have new found anecdotal proof as to why his bargain bin knives are superior; then why in the world would he consider getting him a knife that comes standard with a carbon steel blade and a wooden handle that would require some sort of sealing/stabilizing before it's ready for the kinds of use it sounds like his friend puts his knives through?

If he decides to go the route of trying to convince his friend that an extra $20 spent pays back dividends at a more entry level price point, it would seem like he'd be much better off buying something like a USA made Kershaw, a RAT in AUS8, an American Buck, or budget Spyderco etc. There's a lot to be said for modern designs, materials, decent construction and F&F and non-mystery stainless steels (compared to what his friend is likely currently using).

Mind you, this is all moot if he decides not to go through with it or if his friend has no desire to change what seems to be his set ways.

Edited for clarity.

Well said.

 

[Tommy-Chi]

The one thing that comes to my mind is this; if the OP, who's still debating about whether or not to get/gift his friend an upgrade in the knife department, has reservations about potentially gifting his buddy something like an Ontario RAT I/II in D2 steel because he's worried that his friend's uses for said knife combined with his (lack of) maintenance routine for said knife may cause it to corrode and thus have new found anecdotal proof as to why his bargain bin knives are superior; then why in the world would he consider getting him a knife that comes standard with a carbon steel blade and a wooden handle that would require some sort of sealing/stabilizing before it's ready for the kinds of use it sounds like his friend puts his knives through?

If he decides to go the route of trying to convince his friend that an extra $20 spent pays back dividends at a more entry level price point, it would seem like he'd be much better off buying something like a USA made Kershaw, a RAT in AUS8, an American Buck, or budget Spyderco etc. There's a lot to be said for modern designs, materials, decent construction and F&F and non-mystery stainless steels (compared to what his friend is likely currently using).

Mind you, this is all moot if he decides not to go through with it or if his friend has no desire to change what seems to be his set ways.

Edited for clarity.

If I had this problem I would buy my friend a Spyderco Jumpmaster 2 SE, or L200N PE. They are not going to readily corrode and they will show the true value of the friendship.

 

[Bigfattyt]

Sorry, I don't need that kind of negativity in my life!!!!

 

[pinnah]

Wow.
So you think you have more experience in wet sandy conditions than I. [snip...]Spare me the wet New England woods stuff.

I mention the New England woods stuff for the same reason you mention the Chesapeake Bay stuff. We both have plenty of experience in wet, sandy and humid conditions and we've had different experiences and reached different conclusions. Perhaps we can just leave it there?

Wet is a condition I am extremely familiar with on and around the water in small boats. And I have had Opinel's fail under those conditions.

Me too. I've had poorly treated Opinels seize up just as you describe. It's not happened since I switched to melting in floor wax. YMMV. But then, I've had traditional lock backs "fail" in that they got gunked up with sand to the point of not trusting the lock up and a swishing over the transom hasn't been enough. <shrug>. We've had different experiences.

But aside form the water issue, take a very good look at an Opinel. Everything, and I mean everything, is mounted on just two little 'fingers' of wood that jut out from the main body of the handle. If you torque the blade by accident or other reason, those little fingers can crack. It happened to me and I ended up with a useless knife that went in the trash can.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the episode you're referring to involved an Opinel 7 (or 8?), if I recall correctly. Like most slip joints of the same size, it's possible for a strong man to overcome the integrity of the joint. I could walk outside right now, pick up a stick and bust up a perfectly good Case Peanut and that would prove nothing other than my failure to recognize the limits of my tool.

The OP noted that his friend worked outside and you'll note I didn't recommend an Opinel 7 as that's a teeny little knife for light use. I recommended an Opinel 9 or 10. Just as axe handles get tougher when they get bigger, so do the Opinel handles. Like many of us here, I sometimes go out of my way to push a knife just to see where the limits are. You've shared some of your stories along these lines too. I've found the Opinel 9 or 10 to be tougher than any comparably sized slip joint or lock back I've used.

People who have elevated these knives to a cult worship status forget that in France they are considered a semi disposable knife to be tossed if it breaks or becomes to worn it use.

Exactly right. That's how most working people regard their knives and just exactly how the OP's buddy treats his knives. His buddy isn't wrong to disregard knives so. But there are definitely some disposable knives that are better than others. In my experience, which obviously differs from yours, the Mora and Opinel are among the best "disposable" knives. Buck lockbacks, Case slip joints and SAKs are OK but nowhere as durable IME as the Mora or Opinel. Again, YMMV.

 

[Chariotz4]

[...]Exactly right. That's how most working people regard their knives and just exactly how the OP's buddy treats his knives. His buddy isn't wrong to disregard knives so. But there are definitely some disposable knives that are better than others. In my experience, which obviously differs from yours, the Mora and Opinel are among the best "disposable" knives. Buck lockbacks, Case slip joints and SAKs are OK but nowhere as durable IME as the Mora or Opinel. Again, YMMV.

I'm not sure where to start with this. In one breath, you're saying that not all "disposable" knives are created equally which I'd wager is a pretty fair statement. Then you say in your opinion Mora's and Opinels are among the best "disposable" knives. If that's what you think, more power to ya. However, you then go on to say that Buck lockbacks, Case slip joints, and SAKs are nowhere as durable as the [disposable] Moras or Opinels. By comparing the two you're either:

A) Inferring that the Bucks, Cases, and SAKs that you're referring to are also "disposable" knives by way of the comparison or
B) You consider the tools by the aforementioned brands to be "non-disposable" and are saying that knives that are made to last are inferior to "disposable" blades.

As well, something to note, comparing a fixed blade to a folding knife is not exactly a fair comparison to make. There's a whole lot less to go wrong with a fixed blade due to it having 100% fewer moving parts.

I don't have any experience with Case knives, but I have a couple SAKs (a Cassic and an Alox Cadet) and my dad has a few Bucks, including the the well respected 110. He's used his knives for hunting and he's not a savvy gentleman when it comes to bladed tools. He uses them beyond the point of them needing to be sharpened and beyond washing/rinsing them out, doesn't take his knives apart to clean them or oil them etc. They've lasted him a while and served him well and still have life yet.

My SAK Cadet lives on my keychain and has been exposed to lots of wood dust and just general debris from my work environment. It's still absolutely functional and is wearing well thanks to the Alox scales.

I don't see these knives/tools failing to stop working for us anytime soon. As well, you are right, my mileage certainly does vary and I'd imagine others will too.

Edited for clarity.

 

[pinnah]

Chariotz4,

Comparing apples to apples, Buck, Case and Victorinox all sell knives in the $25 and under price range that a Mora Companion or Opinel 10 will put you in.

With Buck in this price range, you'll end up with a plastic framed knife like the older Bucklite Max, newer 110LT, the long running Bantam or maybe a good price on a low end Vantage. These are all in the disposable category in my mind and not to be compared with, say, the limited run aluminum framed, micarta scaled 110 that I've been carrying most days since I got for Christmas last year. There are Bucks and then there are Bucks. I've owned a variety of plastic and other low end Bucks and they've all developed terrible lock rock in under a year. Some were bad right out of the clam shell. I stick with metal framed Bucks now and note you can usually get a brass/420HC 110 at Walmart for around $30. That's a ridiculous price. But I've owned and hammered on a bunch of 110s in my life and they aren't as durable as an Opinel 10, which is about the same size. It's not even close, IME. Like I note, I love the 110 and carry more than just about any knife in my pile but I accept the limitation of the teeny clip point. Not uncommon to see 110s tipped by people using them as pry bars and screwdrivers.

For the Case knives in this price range, I'm primarily thinking about the large Sodbuster Workman or the smaller Sodbuster Jr, both of which are much tougher than most Case knives due to the bigger pivot. Their traditional slip joints (like jackknife's preferred Peanut) will open up and develop play under hard use as really, all traditional slip joints do.

In this $25-disposable price range with Victorinox, you'll be in a plastic scaled pocket knife and not a full sized knife. I don't find them to be any more durable than traditional slip joints (not very) and often end up smashing off the scales. They make great gifts though. But I wouldn't be giving one to somebody who is a dedicated knife destroyer like the OP's buddy.

What sub-$25 knife would you recommend to the OP to give to his buddy who busts a lot of knives?

 

[Chariotz4]

Chariotz4,

Comparing apples to apples, Buck, Case and Victorinox all sell knives in the $25 and under price range that a Mora Companion or Opinel 10 will put you in.

With Buck in this price range, you'll end up with a plastic framed knife like the older Bucklite Max, newer 110LT, the long running Bantam or maybe a good price on a low end Vantage. These are all in the disposable category in my mind and not to be compared with, say, the limited run aluminum framed, micarta scaled 110 that I've been carrying most days since I got for Christmas last year. There are Bucks and then there are Bucks. I've owned a variety of plastic and other low end Bucks and they've all developed terrible lock rock in under a year. Some were bad right out of the clam shell. I stick with metal framed Bucks now and note you can usually get a brass/420HC 110 at Walmart for around $30. That's a ridiculous price. But I've owned and hammered on a bunch of 110s in my life and they aren't as durable as an Opinel 10, which is about the same size. It's not even close, IME. Like I note, I love the 110 and carry more than just about any knife in my pile but I accept the limitation of the teeny clip point. Not uncommon to see 110s tipped by people using them as pry bars and screwdrivers.

For the Case knives in this price range, I'm primarily thinking about the large Sodbuster Workman or the smaller Sodbuster Jr, both of which are much tougher than most Case knives due to the bigger pivot. Their traditional slip joints (like jackknife's preferred Peanut) will open up and develop play under hard use as really, all traditional slip joints do.

In this $25-disposable price range with Victorinox, you'll be in a plastic scaled pocket knife and not a full sized knife. I don't find them to be any more durable than traditional slip joints (not very) and often end up smashing off the scales. They make great gifts though. But I wouldn't be giving one to somebody who is a dedicated knife destroyer like the OP's buddy.

What sub-$25 knife would you recommend to the OP to give to his buddy who busts a lot of knives?

Looks like we'll just have to agree to disagree, which is fine. I have my opinions and you have your own and I doubt there's much either of us could say to sway the other from their position.

Having said that, I think that gifting the OP's friend a knife in the sub $25 category isn't really the best move if he's trying to impart upon his friend the value of spending a little more to get a quality blade that one can reasonably expect to have a much longer lifespan, nor would it likely be in the OP's interest to try and ween his friend off of "disposable" knives by gifting/giving him a slightly better..."disposable" knife (according to your definition of that term) .

This is not to say that there are not some great knives in the sub $25 price range. I'll avoid Cases because as I've mentioned before, I'm not familiar with them personally; however, you've already mentioned some knives that come to mind. The Buck 110LT can be had in that price range and I'd expect it to offer a good value for its price. What about the KA-BAR Dozier Folding Hunter? I've heard good things about its price to performance ratio on this very site!

This leads me into my two main points; no one is saying there aren't good knives to be had at a lower price, in my experience there are both "good" and "bad" knives at every price point that I've encountered. However, if the OP (who again, is still seemingly undecided on whether he should even attempt to go about changing his friend's ways) wants to show his friend what spending a little extra coin on a blade can net you in materials, design/features, and fit and finish, then why would he go about picking a knife in a price range in what is likely to give only the smallest increments of improvement? I fully understand that to some, spending $40-$60USD (I'm Canadian) on a knife is a lot, however, unless you're really just scraping by (in which case, maybe you shouldn't be involved in collecting/using knives until you can afford to) that's a sum that most people can save up to if they're willing. Yes, there is an increase in value in going from a $10-$15 "gas station special" to a $25 knife, but why shouldn't the OP just swing for the fences and really knock his friend's socks off by saving up an extra $15 to $35? The Buck 110 keeps being mentioned so I'll use it as a specific example. You can grab the 110LT for less than $30 off of some online retailers. The more classic offering with brass bolsters and wooden handles with metal frame construction can be had for less than $50. Barring severe financial problems and a complete lack of willingness to shop online, why wouldn't one spend the extra cash on the sturdier model if durability is valued over saving some ounces in this case?

The second point can be divided into two sub points. You keep mentioning "disposable" knives, and from the way you keep mentioning it, you seem to be giving the term a negative connotation (please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on that). I'm willing to bet that there are a lot of people out there, both on and off this forum, that use these "disposable" knives (as you see them) as if they were "indisposable". The value in the cost of something is different for everyone and not everyone will find a $20 knife to be so cheap that they can just toss it at the first sign of wear. Think of it in this context, just because someone with a Shiro or a Grimso is willing to beat on a $150 Benchmade or Spyderco because to them it's "disposable", it doesn't mean that that's a universal feeling/notion. In this particular case, I think you're confusing the sentiment of not being too broken up about losing/breaking a $20 knife vs a truly disposable knife ie. a box cutter with replaceable blades. The $20 knife is disposable in the sense that one's not too emotionally attached to it, but I'd wager many aren't throwing them out to buy a new one as soon as the blade becomes dull.

As well, the second half of this comes back to your thoughts on the Opinel. You feel that it's an extremely durable knife from your experience. Fair enough, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. While I fail to see how the Opinel #10 is sturdier to than a classic wood and steel Buck 110 in general use across different environments, that's besides the point. Or rather it would be if the OP had criteria for a knife that say necessitated that suggestions for a knife be limited to modern folders that can be opened and closed one-handed straight from the box. Again, if you like Opinels, no one's going to hold that against you. In this case though, it would seem that if the OP decides to treat his friend, in this particular case an Opinel would likely not be the best choice for his friend based on what OP has shared with us so far.

Again, you have your opinions and I have mine and this is just my $0.02.

Edited for grammar and clarity.

 

[katanas]

TL/DR. This isn't the big deal some are making out of it. It's about the OP and his friend. I dare say they will work it out. Friends do it all the time over things MUCH more important.

 

[benchwarmer380]

TL/DR. This isn't the big deal some are making out of it. It's about the OP and his friend. I dare say they will work it out. Friends do it all the time over things MUCH more important.

If you feel that way then just report it to the mods as a useless thread and request that it be closed. Why waste your time reading and responding?
I personally disagree because the OP came here to specifically get the forums advice, but we all have our opinions.

Maybe if you took the time to actually read, you'd see that he was making a genuine point in that it doesn't make much sense to recommend a cheap and disposable knife (albeit a good one) to someone looking to show their friend that spending a little more can get you a knife that will last much longer. IE, not be disposable.

^^^ This comment is assuming that the TL/DR was for just the preceding comment. If that is so, then I stand by it. If the TL/DR was for ALL of the long winded posts in this thread, then please refer to my second sentence of this post.

 

[Quiet]

An assertion that an Opinel 10 is more durable than a Buck 110. I don't even know how to respond to that. Wow. Just...I actually laughed when I read that. Just wow. Chariotz, excellent points all around.

 

[cbrstar]

I have a friend who won't own a knife over $40. But I think for him the fun is finding some no name special that seems to have the features of a much more expensive knife. I've given him much more expensive knives but he won't use them and instead likes to keep them in his bugout bag.

Even a cheap knife as long as it's maintained can last a long time even with everyday use.

 

[Yonose]

I doubt if opinel, mora or even buck 110 would inspire a life long passion in high end folders for someone who is proud of showing off his crappy knives. I recently gave my rat1 in d2 user to someone I’ve known for 15 years(he didn’t want a new one I had in green). One day your friend may “get it” on his own or he may never understand the joy of high end steel—as well as the joy of sharpening such. It took me quite awhile to graduate from folders available at wally’s to higher end knives(My upper price limit is roughly $250) and I still haven’t made the leap to the $500+ folders—so I don’t understand(yet) the passion a lot of bf members have for customs or even mid techs.

 

[FN in MT]

Life is too short to worry about such things. Now...I wish I COULD.

I go through this with hunting rifles and a few friends. They refuse to buy decent optics. They can afford it, but would rather use under a hundred dollar scopes, replacing them every 4-5 years! They waste money sighting in every season, they occasionally lose game when they can't hit it, or WORSE, lose it when they WOUND it. Drives me nuts.

Same with bino's. Buy a good pair ONCE, enjoy using them your entire life, then hand them down.

Don't get that way of thinking.

 

[sabre cat]

Life is too short to worry about such things. Now...I wish I COULD.

I go through this with hunting rifles and a few friends. They refuse to buy decent optics. They can afford it, but would rather use under a hundred dollar scopes, replacing them every 4-5 years! They waste money sighting in every season, they occasionally lose game when they can't hit it, or WORSE, lose it when they WOUND it. Drives me nuts.

Same with bino's. Buy a good pair ONCE, enjoy using them your entire life, then hand them down.

Don't get that way of thinking.

I know a plumber that factors the cost of garbage tools into his work estimates. The thing is, he is loaded. He can afford any tool he wants. Yet, he buys second-rate gear from harbor freight.

 

[Yonose]

I buy those same crappy tools at big box stores under name of brand tool makers when they are marked down for clearance. But I give them away as loaners, instead of using them myself. I bought a multitool/folding knife with screwdriver for $10 at lowes. That’s $5 for a knife, $5 for a multi which I tried out and didn’t break under rough testing. The knife had a prying tool designed into the handle, which I thought was a nice touch for people that use their knife in such a way—but I just don’t have room in my pockets for such junk.

 

[pinnah]

Looks like we'll just have to agree to disagree, which is fine. I have my opinions and you have your own and I doubt there's much either of us could say to sway the other from their position.

I think it's fine to agree to disagree. If we didn't, we wouldn't have a basis to talk about knives.

My sense of the thread is that there are 2 basic camps of thought. One is that that OP is right and that his friend would benefit from using an expensive knife. The other is that the friend's desire to use inexpensive knives should be accepted, if not respected.

I'm in the latter camp. My only addition to that is my assertion that there are inexpensive knives that are very durable and that won't fall apart quickly for the OP's friend. I've recommended the Mora Companion and Opinel 9 or 10 as examples of inexpensive knives that are very durable.

Having said that, I think that gifting the OP's friend a knife in the sub $25 category isn't really the best move if he's trying to impart upon his friend the value of spending a little more to get a quality blade that one can reasonably expect to have a much longer lifespan, nor would it likely be in the OP's interest to try and ween his friend off of "disposable" knives by gifting/giving him a slightly better..."disposable" knife (according to your definition of that term) .

I no longer believe that money necessarily buys you durability in knives. It can - sometimes. But generally speaking, I think durability has much more to do with design and also with materials. I'll amplify that a bit in discussing the Buck 110 and Opinel 9/10 below.

The Buck 110 keeps being mentioned so I'll use it as a specific example. You can grab the 110LT for less than $30 off of some online retailers. The more classic offering with brass bolsters and wooden handles with metal frame construction can be had for less than $50. Barring severe financial problems and a complete lack of willingness to shop online, why wouldn't one spend the extra cash on the sturdier model if durability is valued over saving some ounces in this case?

I got my first 110 in '77 and still use it today as my hunting knife. I've had more pocket time with the 110 than any other knife and have owned more Buck (and Schrade USA) lock backs than I can count. I'll summarize my comparison of the 110 compared to the Opinel 9 & 10, which I've also been using for more than a decade now.

Shortest version is this: The Buck 110 is an excellent hunting knife. The Opinel was designed primarily as a farming/utility knife for laborers and handles hard work better.

In terms of steels, the knives are comparable. 420HC and 12C27 both perform good enough for most uses if hardened well and Buck and Opinel both get these steels in the 56Rc range (which is a point or two higher than Mora, Case and Victorinox, btw). IME, this is as good as it gets in the $25 range. Fans of better steels make great points about the steels that are available in a higher price ranges and that's a separate discussion. Leave it to say that laborers have suffered through using well hardened fine grained steels for centuries. Buck's 420HC and Opinel's 12C27 are fine for both EDC and hard use if you commit to sharpening your knife and are much better than no-name crap steel with poor heat treat.

Please note, I'm not saying that there aren't good arguments for better steels. Just noting that among the budget steels, Buck's 420HC and Opinel's 12C27 are both quite good for what they are.

In terms of lock strength, the Buck 110's lock is much stronger so long as you exclude sharp impacts such as pointless spine wack tests (they can dislodge the lock bar through inertia) or even more pointless car hood stabbing demos. The Opinel's lock ring won't stand up to hard closing pressures and people who ignore this will cut off their fingers.

In terms to standing up to hard cutting forces, like repeatedly cutting back brush or powering through tough cordage, the Buck 110 is prone to developing vertical blade play (aka lock rock). The blade/lock bar face can deform, as can the lock bar pivot. You can often feel this by keeping your thumb on top of the lock bar as you cut. You will feel the lock bar rise under hard cutting. When bad, this can lead to dangerous "sling shot" closure when you cut through a hard medium like a branch. This will lift a loose lock bar to the point of not being engaged, so when you finish the cut, the blade can fly forward before the lock bar springs back into place.

This problem is much worse among Buck's plastic framed lock backs. If you trash enough plastic framed lock backs (as I have) Buck's warranty department will politely and correct advise you to stick with their metal framed knives (which I do, now) which minimizes but does not eliminate the problem. We should remember, the 110 is first and foremost a hunting knife and you don't make hard cuts like this when dressing a deer.

In terms of horizontal play, the Buck 110 uses traditional hidden peened pivot construction and prying with the blade will produce lateral play eventually.

I've pushed Opinels harder than any Buck I've owned and have yet to produce vertical or horizontal play. The pivot is steel and is fully peened. You can marginally loosen up an Opinel, but it takes using a large bladed screw driver in the joint and even then, I've never had one so loose that it had any lateral play. In terms of hard cutting, I've seen pictures of well used Opinels where the inner collar started to deform where the blade hits it and over time, the blade will sit higher and higher and as that happens, the lock ring will spin more. I could see that an Opinel could potentially wear out in this way, but I've never been able to push an Opinel that hard - never have developed play with one despite heaping scornful abuse on them, including prying and batoning with them (with the lock ring disengaged).

Please note, I carry a 110 most days. It's plenty durable for my average EDC needs. And I'm not saying the Opinel is the most durable in existence. Just noting that if the OP wants to gift his buddy a durable knife, he can do so while staying inside his buddy's preferred low price range.

The second point can be divided into two sub points. You keep mentioning "disposable" knives, and from the way you keep mentioning it, you seem to be giving the term a negative connotation (please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on that).

There is a saying something to effect of, it's better to own your things than to be owned by them.

Bob Loveless said something similar when he said that knives are tools and when we forget that, we've lost perspective.

Or, as a group of hard charging skiers I used to work with put it, all skis are rocks rock skis.

The last comment allowed my skiing to go the next level. If you have $500 skis and fear damaging them on rocks, you ski timidly. When I treat my skis as "disposable", I ski more aggressively.

I've a hunch the OP's buddy has internalized the same ideal. I'm guessing he doesn't want a knife he has to worry about, just like some folks don't want a pick up truck they can't scratch and dent.

In the end, all of our knives are disposable, I suppose. But I don't mean anything negative by it. But I only have a few knives that I don't treat with disposable disregard. The fancy 110 my wife gave me is an exceptions, as are a few other nice Bucks that I have like a old script 500 and a first generation 112 gifted to me by a guy who carried it in Vietnam. But my Opinels and some of my other Bucks... they get beat on.

Again, if you like Opinels, no one's going to hold that against you. In this case though, it would seem that

if the OP decides to treat his friend, in this particular case an Opinel would likely not be the best choice for his friend based on what OP has shared with us so far.

The concern that the OP raised about his buddy's cheap knives was not fit and finish. It wasn't appreciation for fine cutlery craftsmanship or exotic scales.

The concern he raised was durability. He noted that his buddy's inexpensive knives kept breaking on him.

In the $25 US range, I pointed the Mora Companion and Opinel 9 or 10 as being particularly durable. IME, plastic framed lock backs don't even come close and even more expensive metal frame lock backs aren't as durable.

Can you suggest a budget knife with good durability for somebody who is know for breaking knives?

 

[danbot]

The concern that the OP raised about his buddy's cheap knives was not fit and finish. It wasn't appreciation for fine cutlery craftsmanship or exotic scales.

The concern he raised was durability. He noted that his buddy's inexpensive knives kept breaking on him.

Actually, I think the real concern of the OP is that he would like his own knife purchasing preferences to be justified in his buddy's eyes.

 

[shinyedges]

Damn, WTDLTR!

 

[craytab]

I think it's fine to agree to disagree. If we didn't, we wouldn't have a basis to talk about knives.

My sense of the thread is that there are 2 basic camps of thought. One is that that OP is right and that his friend would benefit from using an expensive knife. The other is that the friend's desire to use inexpensive knives should be accepted, if not respected.

I'm in the latter camp. My only addition to that is my assertion that there are inexpensive knives that are very durable and that won't fall apart quickly for the OP's friend. I've recommended the Mora Companion and Opinel 9 or 10 as examples of inexpensive knives that are very durable.



I no longer believe that money necessarily buys you durability in knives. It can - sometimes. But generally speaking, I think durability has much more to do with design and also with materials. I'll amplify that a bit in discussing the Buck 110 and Opinel 9/10 below.



I got my first 110 in '77 and still use it today as my hunting knife. I've had more pocket time with the 110 than any other knife and have owned more Buck (and Schrade USA) lock backs than I can count. I'll summarize my comparison of the 110 compared to the Opinel 9 & 10, which I've also been using for more than a decade now.

Shortest version is this: The Buck 110 is an excellent hunting knife. The Opinel was designed primarily as a farming/utility knife for laborers and handles hard work better.

In terms of steels, the knives are comparable. 420HC and 12C27 both perform good enough for most uses if hardened well and Buck and Opinel both get these steels in the 56Rc range (which is a point or two higher than Mora, Case and Victorinox, btw). IME, this is as good as it gets in the $25 range. Fans of better steels make great points about the steels that are available in a higher price ranges and that's a separate discussion. Leave it to say that laborers have suffered through using well hardened fine grained steels for centuries. Buck's 420HC and Opinel's 12C27 are fine for both EDC and hard use if you commit to sharpening your knife and are much better than no-name crap steel with poor heat treat.

Please note, I'm not saying that there aren't good arguments for better steels. Just noting that among the budget steels, Buck's 420HC and Opinel's 12C27 are both quite good for what they are.

In terms of lock strength, the Buck 110's lock is much stronger so long as you exclude sharp impacts such as pointless spine wack tests (they can dislodge the lock bar through inertia) or even more pointless car hood stabbing demos. The Opinel's lock ring won't stand up to hard closing pressures and people who ignore this will cut off their fingers.

In terms to standing up to hard cutting forces, like repeatedly cutting back brush or powering through tough cordage, the Buck 110 is prone to developing vertical blade play (aka lock rock). The blade/lock bar face can deform, as can the lock bar pivot. You can often feel this by keeping your thumb on top of the lock bar as you cut. You will feel the lock bar rise under hard cutting. When bad, this can lead to dangerous "sling shot" closure when you cut through a hard medium like a branch. This will lift a loose lock bar to the point of not being engaged, so when you finish the cut, the blade can fly forward before the lock bar springs back into place.

This problem is much worse among Buck's plastic framed lock backs. If you trash enough plastic framed lock backs (as I have) Buck's warranty department will politely and correct advise you to stick with their metal framed knives (which I do, now) which minimizes but does not eliminate the problem. We should remember, the 110 is first and foremost a hunting knife and you don't make hard cuts like this when dressing a deer.

In terms of horizontal play, the Buck 110 uses traditional hidden peened pivot construction and prying with the blade will produce lateral play eventually.

I've pushed Opinels harder than any Buck I've owned and have yet to produce vertical or horizontal play. The pivot is steel and is fully peened. You can marginally loosen up an Opinel, but it takes using a large bladed screw driver in the joint and even then, I've never had one so loose that it had any lateral play. In terms of hard cutting, I've seen pictures of well used Opinels where the inner collar started to deform where the blade hits it and over time, the blade will sit higher and higher and as that happens, the lock ring will spin more. I could see that an Opinel could potentially wear out in this way, but I've never been able to push an Opinel that hard - never have developed play with one despite heaping scornful abuse on them, including prying and batoning with them (with the lock ring disengaged).

Please note, I carry a 110 most days. It's plenty durable for my average EDC needs. And I'm not saying the Opinel is the most durable in existence. Just noting that if the OP wants to gift his buddy a durable knife, he can do so while staying inside his buddy's preferred low price range.




There is a saying something to effect of, it's better to own your things than to be owned by them.

Bob Loveless said something similar when he said that knives are tools and when we forget that, we've lost perspective.

Or, as a group of hard charging skiers I used to work with put it, all skis are rocks rock skis.

The last comment allowed my skiing to go the next level. If you have $500 skis and fear damaging them on rocks, you ski timidly. When I treat my skis as "disposable", I ski more aggressively.

I've a hunch the OP's buddy has internalized the same ideal. I'm guessing he doesn't want a knife he has to worry about, just like some folks don't want a pick up truck they can't scratch and dent.

In the end, all of our knives are disposable, I suppose. But I don't mean anything negative by it. But I only have a few knives that I don't treat with disposable disregard. The fancy 110 my wife gave me is an exceptions, as are a few other nice Bucks that I have like a old script 500 and a first generation 112 gifted to me by a guy who carried it in Vietnam. But my Opinels and some of my other Bucks... they get beat on.




The concern that the OP raised about his buddy's cheap knives was not fit and finish. It wasn't appreciation for fine cutlery craftsmanship or exotic scales.

The concern he raised was durability. He noted that his buddy's inexpensive knives kept breaking on him.

In the $25 US range, I pointed the Mora Companion and Opinel 9 or 10 as being particularly durable. IME, plastic framed lock backs don't even come close and even more expensive metal frame lock backs aren't as durable.

Can you suggest a budget knife with good durability for somebody who is know for breaking knives?

Ontario utilitac II is far more durable than any of the folders you list. I've found them from $17-$25 and did indeed buy one for a buddy to introduce him to a quality durable knife for not much more money than the gas station junk he was carrying. If the op's buddy is breaking knives, an opinel would not be a good recommendation imo.

 

[Chariotz4]

P pinnah A few others have said more or less what I'd respond with, and I know I tend to over-articulate at times so I'll refer you to below two quoted posts:

Actually, I think the real concern of the OP is that he would like his own knife purchasing preferences to be justified in his buddy's eyes.

Ontario utilitac II is far more durable than any of the folders you list. I've found them from $17-$25 and did indeed buy one for a buddy to introduce him to a quality durable knife for not much more money than the gas station junk he was carrying. If the op's buddy is breaking knives, an opinel would not be a good recommendation imo.

The only thing I'd add is this (to save a lot of eye strain!):

[...]I no longer believe that money necessarily buys you durability in knives. It can - sometimes. But generally speaking, I think durability has much more to do with design and also with materials.

A) So you don't usually correlate an increase in the price of a knife with an increase in the durability/longevity of a knife, but you tie a knife's durability to it's design and materials?

This seems strange to me because to my knowledge, better materials almost always cost more than inferior ones and better designs (that enhance end use) usually carry a relevant price hike too. Think of a knife made with pinned construction and a closed design with a cheap plastic handle running on teflon/plastic washers compared to a knife with a more durable titanium handle running on phosphor bronze washers built with screw-together construction with a flow through design - which is likely to command a higher price? And while it's arguably overkill in the durability department (for most), think of the G&G Hawk MUDD. That's a design that is supposed to significantly aid in the durability of a knife, and to my knowledge you can't simply find it just anywhere, and when you do, you're likely going to pay a premium for it. You allude to this yourself when you compared the lightweight 110 to the standard 110.

The wood and extra metal in the standard version likely costs more which adds to the price tag. In your own words, you find it more likely to function better in usage, and as a result, it's more likely to stick around for the long haul. To me, a prime example of the increased cost of something giving you a product with a longer lifespan (ie. more durable).

Also:

My only addition to that is my assertion that there are inexpensive knives that are very durable and that won't fall apart quickly for the OP's friend. I've recommended the Mora Companion and Opinel 9 or 10 as examples of inexpensive knives that are very durable.

I find it strange you previously put Moras in the "disposable" camp, but you now say that they're "very durable". That logic seems backwards; if something is purpose made to be disposed, how can it be durable?? I'd also like to point out that having the mentality that something is disposable vs. an actual disposable product are two seperate things.

At this point, I feel this conversation is likely better served in either PMs or in a different part of the forum. I feel like our conversation is doing nothing for the OP. Speaking of whom, at this point, my advice to him, like so many others is to either accept your friend's knife habits, or gently try and change them. However, the quality of one's knives is likely a poor subject to risk a friendship over.