The 800 pound gorilla in the room...

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Greetings all,

People that know me understand that by nature, if I have a question I simply ask it, regardless of the sensitivity of the topic at hand. It's not me being uncouth or invasive, I feel I should be able to ask any question and receive an honest answer. That being my preface...

i ask a lot of questions, i don't necessarily expect answers at all. that's just business. nobody tells me nothing :) when they DO tell me things, it generally has a release condition associated with it; like "never say this" or "don't tell until date" or "dribble it out a little when you feel like it (NOW NOW NOW)"... while i and the trinity are privy to a lot of stuff, confidentially says that we can't always blab.



Why was SMKW the retailer chosen as the distributor for the 250 limited run of each tweener?

because:
Hey Everybody......
Yes, there are only about two to two hundred fifty of the roll stamped tweeners (each)......At Smoky's rep weekend the Smoky guys and Kim (from Ka-Bar) and I were having din and After looking over the goods and discovering that there was a first production run of a few hundred they offered to take ALL of them.....YES we said SOLD........Thank You Steve !!!!!....

in a nutshell, timing is everything, SMKW had the $$$, and it was a better business opportunity, that sold a lot of unwanted (750?) knives. done. solved a big headache and money issue in one go. done done done. afaik, imho.



Why was it the Beckerheads did not receive so much as a "Hey guys, heads up..."

well, we were. April 1st; afaik, SMKW was not supposed to release anything until then. why did they release early? F*** if i know. perhaps they F***ed up. perhaps they were given a go ahead. perhaps the date for that changed or was not in stone. pretty much: they own the product now, and it has nothing to do with anyone else anymore.

perhaps you're asking why we didn't get first dibs, or special pricing, or ? well. could be many reasons. foremost: money talks. money up front, and problem solved. it's a very big headache for them to sell a few dozen knives to us at special prices. the BK77s flew out the door, and they didn't have many. the BK10s? big hassle, and they really didn't sell well -- the number of people who kept them is VERY low too. imho, WE need to step up when special offers are presented, hold forth, and do good reviews too (esp on passarounds/contests - gripe gripe)



Why is it even after the thread came out that they were made available through SMKW, no one from KA-BAR has said anything?

why should KaBar say anything? heck, they're probably aware NOW, but that day? possibly caught off guard, but what would they say? why? done deal. doesn't concern them really.

now, Ethan said something. more than once. so have i (as a useful mouthpiece for Ethan, and whatever information i can get from KaBar).




I understand our access to the Forums is a privelage, not a right.
I understand that business is business and personal is personal.
What I don't understand is how this has gone down as it has, as we are KA-BAR/Becker's most loyal fan base.
Remember, by the nature of this association we tread upon the thin line that separates business from personal.
I am not alone when I say I have taken this somewhat personally.
Regards,
Ark


speaking of KaBar they are so STUPID BUSY right now, it's not funny. can't even reach them on the phone most days. they are probably not even reading the forums much right now, except for directed skimming. they (by which i mean the big three we know there), don't have time to read 400 threads and 9000 responses. that's why the Trinity is around a bit, and if something is really critical, we point it out.

honestly, based on what i know, i was surprised by all this too.

KaBar is under zero obligation to release plans or information on projects that have not made it public. they're a privately held company too i think, right? so while that would not necessarily affect stock futures, they still can't wildly disclose their thoughts it would not make good business sense for them to say "oh, well, we have plans to release 15 news knives, and 5 new designers, and blah blah blah". here are our dates. etc.

look at Apple. they say NOTHING until the day, hour, and second. then they only say a little. very carefully. even then, they slip dates (like the iPad3? slipped opening day by 3 days, that's gotta hurt). many companies don't want to provide dates, esp manufacturing, where little things snowball. at best, such dates were estimates. i said this (over and over and over) when the numbers were reluctantly given out. however, people are holding those dates up as if they were contracts carved in stone by the gods, and they're PISSED. seriously pissed. disappointment? sure. no right to be that mad though.

me? i can only relay information i have and am allowed to provide. i dig. i pry. i cajole. i beg. sometimes it works :)

the SMKW? yeah, i knew about that. i know about lots of crap. but until the day of the thing, i can't tell you. like i said, nobody told ME they were going early. i *was* planning on having an announcement the moment they were ready. guess not.

same thing happened when the BK5 came out. i found out when people were posting pictures of the damn thing. uhm, what? was shipped, they got sold. not the best, but there you go.

i cold called KaBar the other day. the sales line person told me that Machax should be ready by April 1st. Sheaths must've come in, or are expected to. i assume: possibly earlier. i can hope. later? that can happen. changes? well, i expect changes.

anyway. your nifty thrifty terrific trinity does what they can but we can't make what we want happen hardly ever. i wanted early samples, passarounds, reviews, contests, and other promotions and stuff. i lobbied. i know moose lobbied. guyon made biscuits :> he lobbied too, i'm sure.

and it's not even April 1st yet, and people are PISSED the regular tweeners aren't out yet either. geez. people :)
 
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Random thoughts on this..... I think CCMI probably nailed it though......

I'll bet the guy's at smkw no matter how much they may suck are alot sharper and probably saw an opportunity where one hadn't even finished presenting itself.

Didn't Tomars after all their years in business just recently become members here?......

There's really no need to feel sorry for somebody who's a little slow or who didn't think of something first.... in my business they just copy your designs/ideas call it their own:thumbdn: and if they've been around longer they can get away with it even if they've never had an "original" idea in there life.

Something I think we should all keep in mind is that not every "knife company" cares about knives or us........ just that we buy knives/from them. For these companies this is just a market and they are in sales and want a share of this market. Shocking I know.

With ESEE Knives you see this all the time, one company will do a special run of a certain knife in a different color (I've done this) and other companies setup up deals that are "So and so's Exclusive". Again there's no need to feel sorry about somebody else missing out.

As far as KaBar selling the knives... personally I think it's in bad taste since it under-cuts their "Dealer Network", this is a concept that ESEE (and others) understands and treats as sacred.... other not so much. There is no comparison with the Tweeners and the BK10LE, there is immediate and growing demand for the Tweeners so the time it took to sell a poorly advertised product (BK10) just isn't the same. It's not even close.


Again, just random thoughts.
____________________

I may be wrong but I feel atleast a small sense of comradery here so I'm talking like I'm one of you and even in the same room talking to buddies. Hope that's ok.


Eli


Again, just random thoughts.
________________________Edited to add:

Early release? Here's another example of smart business! If I had a special edition Machax why would I wait till the market is flooded with the same/similar product? Somebody is in sales over at smkw and that's what they're doing here.
 
I know i will catch hell for this... But for the same reason you don't have a Machaxe 6 weeks after it was supposed to come out. It seems as though there head doesn't know what the hands are doing at any given time. That's just my opinion from what I have seen.

well, i don't know about helllll.... but you aren't as informed as some of us, and we don't know many details. what details *i* know, *you* know (if you read hte posts).

but it's not the same reason. see my reply to the OP. SMKW? timing/deal/money.

Machax? officially, the sheaths were/are not ready. third party vendor supplying sheaths. cannot control unforeseen circumstances.

KaBar? success hurts. they are wildly unbelievably successful right now. painfully so. beyond dreams. it'll smooth out, but growing pains like this suck. Becker has never been so popular. the Zombie knife thing, is INSANE. last year they had to do 3-4 extra massive sprint runs to keep up, and luckily that stuff is made off-site, so that COULD be done, the capacity to punch a button and order more and get them in mere weeks, worked.

sheaths? time consuming, fiddly, more expensive than they should be i bet (compared to plastic).
 
As long as I get my BK-15(s) I'm good. Don't care about rollmark vs laser etch. Don't care about limited editions. I want my Mini-Magnum Camp, and I want to use the dickens out of it.
 
Didn't sit well with me either.
No one has prob noticed, but I haven't posted in the "I just ordered a limited edition 16" thread.
Congrats to everyone who got one by the way
I just felt kinda' stupid ... " hey how about a passaround"
"hey this thing is great" "Hey ...
I've been in Business most of my life. There's a way to do things and there's a way not to. This (to me) was the later.
The way the BK 10 was released should have been the blue print (again - to me)

passarounds - well, there should have ideally been a couple kinds of speed passarounds with officila early product. your trinity tried. just didn't get going. the fact anyone stepped up to do one is brilliant. good on ya.

in theory, the BK10LE was great. the BK77 thing was great. they SOLD. tidy profit quickly with minimal effort (some logistics were annoying but it worked). so i wondered at them "what else you got?" -- "hey, we got BK10 blanks" -- "hey, maybe there's a good way to make an LE version? stone washed?" -- "we can do that, and a lot more" -- "okay! people love those things, they should sell out in a week"... well, it happened. there was freaking out, and angst. they also didn't sell out in a week. or a month. in fact, response was pretty poor. retention amongst those that did buy? small (based on my contest, best number i got; but then i saw a lot of BK77s getting flipped too). well, not everything is golden and roses. Beckerhead deals are not supposed to be opportunities to make money either :P that wasn't the blueprint or dream :P
 
sheaths? time consuming, fiddly, more expensive than they should be i bet (compared to plastic).

I think everyone here would be happy with a cardboard sleeve. The Tweeners being the exception, as those look like a step in the right direction...
 
I think everyone here would be happy with a cardboard sleeve. The Tweeners being the exception, as those look like a step in the right direction...

i believe the paraphrase, with regard to the machax and no sheath option? "not going to happen". it's just not practical.
 
Think the answers got nailed. I've never done business with SMKW before, so I've got no bones in that fight. I did order one, and will also order a regular one from Tomars or my other favorite place to get Ka-bar products. I think it was a smart business decision to sell them to a company that put their money down on the table, and I'm not gonna cry about the fact that I'm getting a 16 earlier than expected (and in saber ground, which I like the looks of better anyways). Why no announcement? Probably because SMKW broke the rules, and it was unplanned. I'm sure Ka-bar had no idea that they were going to do this. But I also don't really think it matters. I don't mind how this went down, because we found out pretty quickly anyways, and who wants to bet that most of them got sold to Beckerheads anyways.

At the end of the day, what matters to me is that people have been crying for their tweeners for months. We want them NOW! Where are our tweeners? Well, now they're out in a special run that otherwise would have been wasted money for Ka-Bar, and signed by Ethan to boot, and probably at least a month before estimated. Are we seriously going to complain about our good fortune? They're still in stock, so any of the Beckerheads who want them can have them. If you don't want to pay the relatively tiny extra cost for having one early, saber ground, and with Ethan's signature on it, you can wait until the regular release.

I admit I don't really understand the problem, but that may just be because I don't know much about SMKW. Regardless, the fact that there's been such great interest in Beckers, and that Ka-bar got the money for knives that might otherwise have been wasted, can only be good for us in the long run. Would I have preferred that Ka-bar gave us the option of buying them at some special price before they got sold to SMKW? Sure. Can I blame them for taking advantage of the opportunity they were offered? Heck no.
 
i believe the paraphrase, with regard to the machax and no sheath option? "not going to happen". it's just not practical.

I know...just thinking out loud. I think how many of those black nylon sheaths have ended up in trashcans. Kabar could just save themselves the trouble and offer them without. Beckers were meant to be customized. The Gods demand it. Who is Kabar to stand in defiance of the Gods? Blasphemy!
 
Meh...it is what it is. I totally get both sides, but me...I was waiting till Tomars has the production models in stock anyway.
 
Think the answers got nailed. I've never done business with SMKW before, so I've got no bones in that fight. I did order one, and will also order a regular one from Tomars or my other favorite place to get Ka-bar products. I think it was a smart business decision to sell them to a company that put their money down on the table, and I'm not gonna cry about the fact that I'm getting a 16 earlier than expected (and in saber ground, which I like the looks of better anyways). Why no announcement? Probably because SMKW broke the rules, and it was unplanned. I'm sure Ka-bar had no idea that they were going to do this. But I also don't really think it matters. I don't mind how this went down, because we found out pretty quickly anyways, and who wants to bet that most of them got sold to Beckerheads anyways.

At the end of the day, what matters to me is that people have been crying for their tweeners for months. We want them NOW! Where are our tweeners? Well, now they're out in a special run that otherwise would have been wasted money for Ka-Bar, and signed by Ethan to boot, and probably at least a month before estimated. Are we seriously going to complain about our good fortune? They're still in stock, so any of the Beckerheads who want them can have them. If you don't want to pay the relatively tiny extra cost for having one early, saber ground, and with Ethan's signature on it, you can wait until the regular release.

I admit I don't really understand the problem, but that may just be because I don't know much about SMKW. Regardless, the fact that there's been such great interest in Beckers, and that Ka-bar got the money for knives that might otherwise have been wasted, can only be good for us in the long run. Would I have preferred that Ka-bar gave us the option of buying them at some special price before they got sold to SMKW? Sure. Can I blame them for taking advantage of the opportunity they were offered? Heck no.

The funny thing is....I would actually buy it if it wasn't all laser-etched up. I hate that. Now I'm just going to sit and wait. I try to find other things to preoccupy myself with. Took my SOG hawk in today for a custom coyote brown kydex sheath of my specs. I ordered and customized that MK-I. Keep busy and before you know it, it'll be April.
 
And no one from KB has said anything yet because this is how KB operates. They didn't say anything suring the whole SHOT Show thing, which I think was kind of a fiasco. They had no press releases available for SHOT. No statement about the Machax delays. Etc.

i don't think they were prepared for how much business they would have there. flat out, on their feet busy all day, all night (oh yeah!)

should they have had a camera guy going nuts? i think so :) should they have had literature going? i think so. i STILL don't have a catalog ;) oiy.

they could not of course, said anything about the Machax delays, because at Shot, it was NOT delayed. otherwise, what information is and was known is told to you here. as often as we (i) get updates. at this point, you know as much as i do. possibly more if you call KaBar before i do again.

generally, many vendors at Shot, it seems, only have eyes for people at Shot. there's almost a news blackout. even reporters are told they cannot release some information until AFTER the show. just the way it is.


BUT... we should remember what KB *has* done in the short time I've been a Beckerhead. Uncountable free knives for BFC giveaways. The LEBK10 thing, which I'm sure cost serious bread & manhours and which is a GLORIOUS opportunity for BK&T fans. Preferential treatment when it comes to replacements. The art giveaway that just ended. Support of BK&T with a steady stream of great tools offered at a reasonable price. etc.

AND they got me a sabre ground BK16! I'm so stoked they put those out to retail, despite the line's move to a FFG.

So anyway, not sure what my point was anymore other than I'm a KA-BAR fan.

KaBar has been fantastic to the fans. who apparently are ungrateful ;) they want ever more. pretty much no other knife maker does this, or has the loyalty either ;)

course, that loyalty hurts, as i've mentioned, they're so busy, they can't breath. very busy time of year for them. VERY VERY VERY. long days. not much time to play on the 'nets, and traditionally, they NEVER spill the beans. so, when we know stuff, it's extra special.

the BK10LE thing was a HUGE effort. how many CEOs would be hand assembling knives in his office for you? yeah. 170 or so. by hand. with bells. whistles. special engraving. the works. oh well :)

i'm about done here, unless some other major point presents itself. it's not my JOB even to defend them, but i just wanted in my last few posts to get a much of the known data in one place. people seem ... annoyed for some reason. instead of HAPPY! my god, you're getting knives and cool shit. what more can you want?
 
I know...just thinking out loud. I think how many of those black nylon sheaths have ended up in trashcans. Kabar could just save themselves the trouble and offer them without. Beckers were meant to be customized. The Gods demand it. Who is Kabar to stand in defiance of the Gods? Blasphemy!


THIS!

I've asked them to do this in the past and the answer I got from my rep was "no, never".


Eli


edited to add:

"my god, you're getting knives and cool shit. what more can you want?"

That's just awesome:D
 
I know...just thinking out loud. I think how many of those black nylon sheaths have ended up in trashcans. Kabar could just save themselves the trouble and offer them without. Beckers were meant to be customized. The Gods demand it. Who is Kabar to stand in defiance of the Gods? Blasphemy!

i believe the head god said "no" :)

anyway, i expect the sheath issue to be ... better :)

"nobody loves the factory sheath"

but

people will bitch and moan forever about spending $90 on a custom sheath, if there's even one to be found.

they can't win, so they're providing you with a reusable/resellable shipping container at cost. sell it on ePrey, someone will give ya $10 (or more)+shipping for it.
 
my god, you're getting knives and cool shit. what more can you want?

^^This. +1.

Also, if someone wants to clue me in on why we hate SMKW, I'd be interested in a PM. But other than that, I'm just happy I'm getting a saber ground 16. Heck, I wanted one so bad I had to make one myself, and will be buying the regular version also.
 
It is kind of bull-shit.

Oh well, I ordered a BK16 so hell with it....thats all for now
 
Ethan posted in the original smkw thread that they had mention there we prototypes to the people at smkw and they immediately said they would take them and Ethan and company said SOLD. I'm sure there were MANY different thoughts and ideas of how to handle the FPR's but that's stuff goes out the window if A) there were never any promises made and B) if someone comes along and throws money on the table.

I for one am happy that they put out a special run, especially since we won't ever see the runs like we did with camillus (I.e. bk9HH and desert tan versions etc) and have no qualms who they sold em to because it is a business. We aren't owed a thing, but they do know how to treat their fan base right with giving us sneak peaks and giveaways and Ethan and toooj frequenting this area and answering all the crazy questions we can come up with. Would.I have liked a beckerhead special like the bk10 you damn tooting, but I'm not upset there wasn't. The opposite actually. I'm happy they were even released.
This is about where I stand, I have a hard time getting worked up about the whole deal considering all thats going on in the world and I'm sicker than a dog shitting peach pits so it just seems like unimportant bs right now. I guess it's all about perspective. No offense intended to anyone.
 
What's with the sense of entitlement? We are an infinitesimal portion of KB's buyers, They don't actually owe us anything. They had a chance to sell the whole lot at one go rather than figure out what the heck to do with them. Easy decision there nothing to gripe about. SMKW ponied up the cash for all of them, if you don't like them don't shop there simple as that no one is twisting your arm on it. They are a mega store I don't really expect alot in CS from them, just getting what I ordered.

Don't like the shipping charge? Someone was even nice enough to post a coupon for 5 buck shipping, what more do you want hand delivered by KB or something? Yes it costs a little more than the production runs, so did the BK10LE and the BK77.

Would I have liked a BH only deal, well sure but logistically for a large company that is ridiculously busy not going to happen. Could I have lived without all the laser etched writing, sure but that is just personal preference. Again we are the small minority.
You got a tweener a month early, if you ordered, and a limited one at that. The others are still ,supposedly, on schedule in two weeks. I would have appreciated a heads up but it's not like they sold out and we didn't get any. You have your chance now, buy one or hush. Heck buy 5.
 
My opinion: I would have appreciated a heads up, or a special BeckerHead deal, but in no way do I think Ka-Bar is obligated to do anything special for us. We got pictures and estimated dates. We have opportunity to win free knives every month. Many of our questions get answered by Toooj or Ethan directly. We have recieved a lot of special treatment already.

Smoky Mountain made an offer, Ka-Bar sold them the knives, capitalism at work. I do not know the details of the knife retail industry, but i would assume, at that point the knives belong to Smoky Mountain to do with as they please. I don't like "First Production Run" grafitied across the blade, but I am thrilled to get a tweener several weeks earlier than I thought I would. As for the pricing, limited quanities and early availability command a higher value, again capitalism at work. Of course, I would like my knives to be cheaper and sold in a manner that is convenient to me, but I cannot fault Ka-Bar or Smoky Mountain for making business decisions they deem best for their companies.

Also, it is my understanding that the Machax is late because the Chinese sheath manufacturer cannot meet a deadline and not the fault of Ka-Bar.
 
What's with the sense of entitlement? We are an infinitesimal portion of KB's buyers, They don't actually owe us anything. They had a chance to sell the whole lot at one go rather than figure out what the heck to do with them. Easy decision there nothing to gripe about. SMKW ponied up the cash for all of them, if you don't like them don't shop there simple as that no one is twisting your arm on it. They are a mega store I don't really expect alot in CS from them, just getting what I ordered.

Don't like the shipping charge? Someone was even nice enough to post a coupon for 5 buck shipping, what more do you want hand delivered by KB or something? Yes it costs a little more than the production runs, so did the BK10LE and the BK77.

Would I have liked a BH only deal, well sure but logistically for a large company that is ridiculously busy not going to happen. Could I have lived without all the laser etched writing, sure but that is just personal preference. Again we are the small minority.
You got a tweener a month early, if you ordered, and a limited one at that. The others are still ,supposedly, on schedule in two weeks. I would have appreciated a heads up but it's not like they sold out and we didn't get any. You have your chance now, buy one or hush. Heck buy 5.

Agree 100% Well said sir.
 
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