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The Art and Science of drilling the perfect hole...Need help from the folder makers
- Thread starter Robert Hankins
- Start date
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Well now. I guess I have to be thankful I never read some of the posted data on clearances and the need for the very expensive pieces of equipment. I wouldn't now be making the folders I do. I believe there is a point where when the equipment need can be overdone. I am not ashamed to say that I don't have a surface grinder or milling machine in my shop nor do I know how to operate them now or do I expect to do so in the future. How much quality do I build into my folders without these machines? Well when I asked two very well known makers at a Knifemqakers Guild show for a judgement their answers were "you should be selling with us here." I don't have wiggle in my blades and even when I mounted one blade in a folder with a sealed roller bearing, it couldn't be felt to operate different than one without. They have a smoothness of opening that I'm told is as good as they get and should be. It's not that I'm so good , it's just that good work can be done with good use of inexpesive equipment. Don says it the way it is. If I stopped and had to wait for the good equipment so I could do what I'm doing now where would be the advantage in the end? Frank Niro
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- Jul 21, 2001
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Absolutely excellent observations concerning craftmanship over high tech equipment!
Years ago there was a display of old bowie knives at the Blade Show. Some of them were without handles, most of these were forged blades with holes hot punched rather than drilled or cold punched. Although these blades had obviously known some hard use none of the blades with hot punched holes had fractured through the holes.
I have seen broken tangs in bayonets with drilled holes. I have never seen a folder with a fracture in the pivot hole. This is probably a functin of geometry rather than technique.
I feel stress raisers are greatly influenced by the condition of the steel when and how the hole is made. Somewhere there is probably a book about how to put a hole in steel without resultant stress raisers. I have not found it yet. If anyone knows of some imperica data I would appreciate a refference.
Years ago there was a display of old bowie knives at the Blade Show. Some of them were without handles, most of these were forged blades with holes hot punched rather than drilled or cold punched. Although these blades had obviously known some hard use none of the blades with hot punched holes had fractured through the holes.
I have seen broken tangs in bayonets with drilled holes. I have never seen a folder with a fracture in the pivot hole. This is probably a functin of geometry rather than technique.
I feel stress raisers are greatly influenced by the condition of the steel when and how the hole is made. Somewhere there is probably a book about how to put a hole in steel without resultant stress raisers. I have not found it yet. If anyone knows of some imperica data I would appreciate a refference.
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- Dec 29, 2005
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Deltronic pins.
Available direct from Deltronic with some phonecalls, or from Kerleycorp.com
google gage pins
Available direct from Deltronic with some phonecalls, or from Kerleycorp.com
google gage pins
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- Dec 29, 2005
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Depend on what you are using them for.
I have zz pins from .011 to .5, and use the heck out of them.
If you want to guage a hole within tenths, then no, but they do get you to the ballpark.
I have zz pins from .011 to .5, and use the heck out of them.
If you want to guage a hole within tenths, then no, but they do get you to the ballpark.
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2005
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- 206
It can't be that big of a deal. I made my first working folder using a hand drill to put all the holes in place. That was the only piece of power equipment I used. I know a folder will work even if the pivot doesn't run perpendicular to the knife or if it is 2 thousandth out of possition. It may not be of saleable quality but I've carried and used almost daily one like that for about 4 years now. It still works as good as day one.
ron
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- Dec 29, 2005
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If I'm not mistaken, the thread is about perfect holes, and sellable is a lot of our goals.
You can buy a set of Deltronics for right around $120 IIRC.
If you have a zz set like I mentioned earlier for getting to the ballpark, then all you need tenths wise is the set for the size of your pivot.
They are 25 pc sets +/- .0012 by tenths.
Not cheap, but in machine shops that's how we did it.
I don't have Deltronics at home, but I will.
Right now, I ream undersize before heat treat, then lap to the fit I want on my bushing.
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I buy 'em from McMaster, though there may be better deals.
Dunno what compound I use, it's a little black jar I got years ago.
Machine shops always seem to have compounds from Clover.
Dunno what compound I use, it's a little black jar I got years ago.
Machine shops always seem to have compounds from Clover.
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Please forgive me if this has already been mentioned. I've read this thread with interest and am surprised I haven't (I don't think 
) heard anyone mention about indicating your reamer flutes. My learned trade is as a mold maker from which I moved to programming and setting up CNC machine tools. Primarily vertical & horizontal machining centers. The shop was an ISO and all of our work was checked with a CMM (very high QC). I can think of very few instances where a reamer ran perfectly true. Even in a $750K CNC I have noticed quite a few people chuck a reamer up as far as possible trying to eliminate run out. I do the opposite, chucking long and indicating the very end in by pushing and bumping the reamer accordingly. You would be very surprised at how much run out some possess. Now mind you, some of the machine tools had a 60 tool carousel so take the next tip with a grain of salt. This is how I managed a perfect hole. 1) Center drill 2) Drill undersize ~ .030 3) follow with a regrind endmill straight down through the hole (no interpolating) leaving ~ .015 (Nadz:thumbup: )4) ream If this is a part that goes through HT ream undersize because your hole will move a few tenths. After HT ream w/carbide or lap . I also never "float" a piece/part, always clamping firmly. The gauge pins that were mentioned are very helpful in checking final size. You can pick up a fairly good set from enco (it doesn't have to be a $1000 B&S set). You can do all of this on a $1500 JET Mill/Drill 
or a $1,000,000 MAZAK with good results. I think the biggest thing is perfectly positioning the hole with the emill plunge followed by the indicated reamer. Reamers have been making nearly perfect holes for a long time. BTW, IMHO, a bad lap used incorrectly can egg the hole too. Also, reamers must be sharp for a good hole. I've seen guys "stone" the flutes of an un-indicated reamer they were getting an oversize hole with trying to drop the size a few tenths. It may do just that, but the hole won't be perfect and may have a taper because of rubbing rather than cutting. This technique and opinions are what I have come to learn after working with prints that are drawn using geometric tolerancing (basically everything is relevant to everything)(believe me, small mistakes add up) and parts checked using CMM. It had to be perfect and if it wasn't you did it again. I hate doing things twice 
Its just not the same as when I served my apprenticeship nearly 26 + yrs ago where a good mold maker was measured by not how many mistakes he made (everyone makes mistakes) but how he covered them up Many here know exactly what I mean I'm sure. DA*N CMM's
) heard anyone mention about indicating your reamer flutes. My learned trade is as a mold maker from which I moved to programming and setting up CNC machine tools. Primarily vertical & horizontal machining centers. The shop was an ISO and all of our work was checked with a CMM (very high QC). I can think of very few instances where a reamer ran perfectly true. Even in a $750K CNC I have noticed quite a few people chuck a reamer up as far as possible trying to eliminate run out. I do the opposite, chucking long and indicating the very end in by pushing and bumping the reamer accordingly. You would be very surprised at how much run out some possess. Now mind you, some of the machine tools had a 60 tool carousel so take the next tip with a grain of salt. This is how I managed a perfect hole. 1) Center drill 2) Drill undersize ~ .030 3) follow with a regrind endmill straight down through the hole (no interpolating) leaving ~ .015 (Nadz:thumbup: )4) ream If this is a part that goes through HT ream undersize because your hole will move a few tenths. After HT ream w/carbide or lap . I also never "float" a piece/part, always clamping firmly. The gauge pins that were mentioned are very helpful in checking final size. You can pick up a fairly good set from enco (it doesn't have to be a $1000 B&S set). You can do all of this on a $1500 JET Mill/Drill or a $1,000,000 MAZAK with good results. I think the biggest thing is perfectly positioning the hole with the emill plunge followed by the indicated reamer. Reamers have been making nearly perfect holes for a long time. BTW, IMHO, a bad lap used incorrectly can egg the hole too. Also, reamers must be sharp for a good hole. I've seen guys "stone" the flutes of an un-indicated reamer they were getting an oversize hole with trying to drop the size a few tenths. It may do just that, but the hole won't be perfect and may have a taper because of rubbing rather than cutting. This technique and opinions are what I have come to learn after working with prints that are drawn using geometric tolerancing (basically everything is relevant to everything)(believe me, small mistakes add up) and parts checked using CMM. It had to be perfect and if it wasn't you did it again. I hate doing things twice Its just not the same as when I served my apprenticeship nearly 26 + yrs ago where a good mold maker was measured by not how many mistakes he made (everyone makes mistakes) but how he covered them up Many here know exactly what I mean I'm sure. DA*N CMM's How do you indicate reamers?
Can you please give us some details on how to use a barrel lap right?
Thanks,
Alex
Can you please give us some details on how to use a barrel lap right?
Thanks,
Alex
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a pic is worth a thousand words.
I try to position my indicator as near the end as possible. Throw the machine in N and turn the spindle taking note of the reading and pushing or pulling the reamer accordingly. Sound crude? I thought the same thing when I was taught this but it works like a charm. It has made a huge difference in how my reamed holes turn out since learning this technique yrs ago. It will make a difference for you to if you try it, I promise No. I only have experience in creating the egg
Seriously
. First and probably most important IMHO, make sure the lap is softer than the material you're lapping. make sure the barrel lap has not lost its form (this can happen fast) or that it hasn't been expanded so much with the adjustment screw as to have created a tapered shape lap(split laps). Make certain the lap is charged evenly. Don't over do it (the lapping that is), you shouldn't need to spend more than a few seconds in the bore of a 1/8" or 1/4" hole. If you do, you've left too much material and are begging for a problem. Go slow (spindle speed) not 1500 RPM. I Wish I knew more Alex, my lapping experience is limitedI would be very interested in hearing your lapping technique too Alex, as I mentioned, my experience is limited in this respect. Up to this point I've been using reamers with pretty good results (for holes that is). On the other hand lapping bearing surfaces (blade to frame/liner) definately has its merits of which I am currently examining closely for my folder applications. More questions to come later from me on this I'm sure
What exactly is the purpose or application of "the perfect hole" in this discussion ? Pivot?? Standoff?? Both??
I also wanted to say, IMHO, the perfect hole is more science than art
This post is what I have learned over time. Others finding may be different as may be your results. Good thread Robert :thumbup:
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Do you mean indicating a reamer Alex ? If so, the purpose would be to make sure that it is running true. A reamer that is running out may have, dependant on the size, material to be reamed, etc. the tendancy to cut an oversize or egg shaped hole (or all of the above). I mentioned clamping the part firmly. drilling to remove most material. plunging an emill to precisly locate the hole both in the x, y & Z axis( IMHO a very important step) and then finally reaming to size (with the indicated reamer). All steps done while the part is firmly clamped to maintain position and accuracy, IMHO another important step.I know others float with good results. I just was not taught like that. Not that it isn't acceptable, its just not how I was taught to do it.
I just went back an re-read this thread. Someone did mention indicating the reamer in. There is some very very good advice contained here, I've learned a bunch. Again, great thread Robert and all who contributed. :thumbup: I think the morel of the story here is, and we all know this from past threads, there is more than one way to skin a cat
synthesist
So many knives so little time
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- Sep 14, 2004
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Good grief...................
Not being a machinist, tool and die maker, or a moldmaker, I had no idea drilling a hole was so complex, expensive, and precise, a process. I am going to print this thread and memorize it. I recall, once upon a time, watching Tim Wright indicate a reamer and wondering what he was being so finicky about, but I didn't dare interrupt him in the middle of that. Now I have a notion of what he was up to.
I can see I'm going to have to acquire a raft of skills I didn't know I needed if I am going ever make a folder.
Arrrrrrrrrrgh
Syn
Not being a machinist, tool and die maker, or a moldmaker, I had no idea drilling a hole was so complex, expensive, and precise, a process. I am going to print this thread and memorize it. I recall, once upon a time, watching Tim Wright indicate a reamer and wondering what he was being so finicky about, but I didn't dare interrupt him in the middle of that. Now I have a notion of what he was up to.
I can see I'm going to have to acquire a raft of skills I didn't know I needed if I am going ever make a folder.
Arrrrrrrrrrgh
Syn
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- Jan 5, 2005
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No. :foot: Nooooooooooo, it doesn't have to be that fussy. I sure hope I didn't discourage you syn. That wasn't my intent and I'm pretty sure is wasn't the intent of others here either. So Sorry Dude
synthesist
So many knives so little time
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I spoke to Tim about this after I posted earlier.
I'm sure that if he were here with me in Oak Park, IL instead of in Sedona, AZ he'd have dope-slapped me ( y'know a quick, unexpected smack in the back of the head like your mom used to give you ) and told me to getta grip and drill the frikkin hole, cause you're not building $2500+ folders yet!. I'm told that when I need to create PERFECT holes I'll be told how to do it and what I need to do it with ( although this thread covered a lot of that already).
So no sweat I'm not depressed or anything, just in awe of how far people will go to build, what is supposed to be, mankind's most basic tool ( H'mmm, is fire an even more basic tool? ).
This thread needs to be stickied I think
Syn
I'm sure that if he were here with me in Oak Park, IL instead of in Sedona, AZ he'd have dope-slapped me ( y'know a quick, unexpected smack in the back of the head like your mom used to give you ) and told me to getta grip and drill the frikkin hole, cause you're not building $2500+ folders yet!. I'm told that when I need to create PERFECT holes I'll be told how to do it and what I need to do it with ( although this thread covered a lot of that already).
So no sweat I'm not depressed or anything, just in awe of how far people will go to build, what is supposed to be, mankind's most basic tool ( H'mmm, is fire an even more basic tool? ).
This thread needs to be stickied I think
Syn