The Art of Fencing in Debate

K

Kevin the grey

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Aug 26, 2005
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Before you get your hopes up I have to say this is not a thread about my honing my skills as a debater. (Doesn,t debator slip off the tongue better?)

The type of debate I mean is more those little chats we have with pointed cursors to drive our point home. To the mundane they may be considered swords , rapiers or just pointy bits of wood left lying around.(Any port in a storm.)

I myself have used a pool cue against a sparring partner when he would not settle for having beaten my midsection to a pulp. It was a satisfying feeling to feel my cue slide along his to jab him " 'tween the Ribs." as they say .

This guy was a good partner . He used to beat me with a broomstick as a means of teaching me to absorb punishment. (I now will not touch a broom or perform other related household chores because of this.)(At least thats what I tell the wife.)

Yes I know I digress and regress of this I confess. (Oh what a mess.):p

Does anyone know of moves a lefty may employ to confound the cursed right handers.(Careful Kevin,you are vastly outnumbered.)

I know in fisticuffs and many other less pugilistic pursuits being a lefty is an advantage . In everything from tennis to chess we are supreme. :yawn:

Sometimes this advantage has been lessened just by opponents practicing more against lefties. Other times, when done well.(No can defend.)
I am quick with my hands and dead in the water. My dancing leaves a lot to be desired.(Never give a sword to a man who can't dance.)(I always thought that would ruin the party anyway.)

My shortcomings aside I do believe shoddy footwork can be danced around. :confused:
Choosing terrain to ones advantage , confusing ones adversary,
a good swift kick to the opponents leg. (Dishonorable cur.)
All these may level the playing field . Keep in mind council must transpose to using a walking stick or other more benign choices. I am at heart a peaceful man.

Always give ones opponent the chance to withdraw.(within reason.)
Never instigate or retaliate only defend . If I could run I would. Somehow seeing my fat behind trying to waddle away may trigger further abuse to my good name.:p
 
If y ou are asking about lefty fencing, then what I have learned is that lefty fencers have a distinct advantage over right handed fencers for the exact same reasons as in boxing.

The guards one learns as a right-hander are suddenly of lessoned effectiveness. Everything is backwards, and the threat comes from a different side. Parries are different, the target is different.

Generally speaking, for use against one without much experience, feints and fakes to provoke a parry, then going around it works well because the right hander is already hyperactive due to fencing a lefty.

As an example: lefty extends blade towards righty's right shoulder, medium speed. Start moving in, not quite a lunge, but so to be a threat.

Righty will automatically parry to the right to move the attacking blade off-line.

Lefty continues by dropping the point, rotating it down and under the righty's blade, and continuing the lunge into the midsection.

There are lots of variations. Never use the same thing more than twice.

Andy
 
andy is correct, i remember the last guy i fenced in university was a lefty, i lost. our fencing coach was a hungarian sabre champion (about 5ft 2in tall, tough as old boots), he'd been an officer in the imperial horse guard, and was in his late 70's when i knew him in '64-'68 and still could put a severe arse-whuppin' on you. he had us practice left handed as well as right, but it ain't the same when you come up against the real thing in a match and all the moves drilled into you til they are instinct do not work. the lefty, of course always practices with righties and knows your moves. i talked to my lefty opponent after the match about it & he said he dreaded going up against a lefty too as he never got to practice with one either. (i was 1st epee at the time).
 
Not that I have ever had much experience guarding against a lefty myself I found the only thing to discombobulate(its areal word .Just ask Bob.) me was a lighter faster man . Mayhaps due to the fact his speed and elusiveness attenuated my own gifts.

Large lumbersome fellows as I appear to be could be easier to handle.

Hmmm. Fencing University?
I went to posthole diggers U. myself .
I tried to keep my grades up .
I always ended up digging a hole for myself. :confused:
I went on to after graduate school.
Taken as a hole I did well. :rolleyes:
Oh boy,am I pumping that one.:p


Good stuff keep er coming.
 
Hmm. I'm taking fencing right now, an as it happens I'm a southpaw.
The bigest advantage for lefties is that you are used of fencing righties, while most righties aren't used of fencing lefties. My old college coach (from my one term of fencing) told me that lefties have a tendancy to become dependant on the circle parry. A savvy righty will just follow the parrry around and stick you in the chest :(

Larger fellows may (or may not) be slower, but they have a longer engagement distance, so they can be safe at a distance where you are in jeopardy. Not a happy place ;)

Have fun!
Pat
 
Outdoors said:
Hmm. I'm taking fencing right now, an as it happens I'm a southpaw.
The bigest advantage for lefties is that you are used of fencing righties, while most righties aren't used of fencing lefties. My old college coach (from my one term of fencing) told me that lefties have a tendancy to become dependant on the circle parry. A savvy righty will just follow the parrry around and stick you in the chest :(

Have fun!
Pat
Click to expand...

Ain't that the truth!!

Andy
 
Outdoors said:
Hmm. I'm taking fencing right now, an as it happens I'm a southpaw.
The bigest advantage for lefties is that you are used of fencing righties, while most righties aren't used of fencing lefties. My old college coach (from my one term of fencing) told me that lefties have a tendancy to become dependant on the circle parry. A savvy righty will just follow the parrry around and stick you in the chest :(

Larger fellows may (or may not) be slower, but they have a longer engagement distance, so they can be safe at a distance where you are in jeopardy. Not a happy place ;)

Have fun!
Pat
Click to expand...

I fence lefties in competition all the time. Pat is right that the advantage of a lefty is largely in the fact that there are fewer of them. They fence righties all the time, while righties don't usually fence lefties as often.
Makes no difference to me at all since I've been doing it long enough to change as the need arises.
One mistake righties make at first is distance (should be a tad longer with a lefty) and line (a straight line to the arm against a lefty and the body target is to the left, against a righty, a straight line to your opponent's arm and his body it to the right.) This effects the efficacy of certain types of attacks. To be successful, you need a big bag of tricks and you get those by fencing A LOT of people--especially those that are better than you.

Distance is monumentally important, BTW. In my experience it's best learned by bouting. Lessons are usually performed much closer and more slowly than a bout. While important, you need to bout with quality fencers, preferably those that can beat you better than half the time.
 
Larger fellows may (or may not) be slower, but they have a longer engagement distance, so they can be safe at a distance where you are in jeopardy. Not a happy place Quote

The only advantage I have is that I am fairly quick . I also have a roughly 74 inch span from finger tip to tip .

Little guys are quicker on their feet than I.

I agree on the advantage of a lefty is lessened by observance of technique . I have also been told we tend to think differently . (Kevin? Different? Now thats a stretch!):rolleyes:
 
There is some great advice in there . It sounds like I could learn a good deal . Distance? Moving in a tad closer is to my advantage or negates his advantage?
Does it not negate the advantage of my longer reach?

I have to go out . I will read the answers completely when I return. Good replies.
 
Big tall guys with a lot of girth are some of the fastest people I've ever fenced against. And many of them are good dancers ;)

Left or right doesn't matter, we practice both, because if you take two cuts to the right hand you have to switch.

It is difficult, admittedly, for a rightie to go left hand...but sometimes, if you do that in a middle of a bout, it throws the leftie off. Something unexpected.
 
Distance is a big issue. "Why did I get killed?" Because you were too close.

I like to press people on distance, make them uncomfortable with their range, and often I get killed ;) It's a fun sport, very healthy and educational.
 
Coldwood said:
Big tall guys with a lot of girth are some of the fastest people I've ever fenced against. And many of them are good dancers ;)
Click to expand...

I think it was Foreman that said "Nothing intimidates people more than a fast, graceful fat man."

I can believe it.
 
When I speak of 'change' in fencing, I'm talking about changing your game, not your weapon hand. I think the SCA guys do some of that.

The reason that distance is a tad longer fencing a lefty (assuming you're a righty), is that the close target (hand and arm) is, in practicality, more accessible to both fencers. In practice, this means it's as if you're a little closer. This is an advantage to the lefty because it's the norm for him, not for the righty.

Controlling distance is tremendously important. If you can't compete with a better fencer's hand, you have to beat him on distance. (This is what a lot of the fast kids do to beat the technically superior older guys.) The problem is that a good fencer probably has a good defensive system. This means you have to beat them on timing too.

Here's a simple way for a mediocre fencer to collect touches against an opponent that is better than himself (who is not an A or a B):

You will notice, fencing often occurs in a cadence: attack, parry, reposte, counterparry, etc. .... all like a musical beat --even if it is fast.
It is important to learn to see these actions in what would be the musical equivalent of half time or quarter time, so that you are capable of counterattacking out of time, preferably at the very beginning of the opponents attack or just BEFORE that attack is concluded.

(You should also be able to fleche. If you can't, a better fencer won't respect your distance and push, push push until they pick you off.)

Interestingly, a fencer is most vulnerable WHILE attacking, especially at the very end, just before the attack is completed. This is because the arm is out, making it vulnerable to picks or parries, but more importantly the attacker's distance is vulnerable. If you fleche, for instance, before he's done moving forward, you have a tremendous advantage (assuming you have opposition) because you've taken control and he's locked in to his forward movement for that moment.

Here's one way this would look: Fencing epee, with arm somewhat extended, drop the hand a bit watching for the opponent to extend toward it, preferably with a step or half-lunge. BEFORE his attack is complete (best before his leading foot has planted and the point is around the edge of your guard, fleche or lunge big in opposition (in 6 or 4, whichever is stronger for you). (The fleche is safer for you because if you miss, you're usually out of danger. If you lunge you're succeptable to a counter-offensive action which is certain to come.)

The idea is catch the opponent when most vulnerable. The better the fencer, the smaller that moment of vulnerability. It's usually quite a large moment with fencers C and below.
 
No fair . Lots going on here and I have to go look at beautiful women.:rolleyes: :thumbup:
Please bear with me as I have to shoot my bow tonite . I realise learning fencing from reading has a poor chance at best . The tactics seem like they would help.
Closing with the opponent seems like it would be good . It would limit his ability to circle away from my left arm attack. The only guy I know who teaches sword at all is the one that made my Boken . I can just see his expression if I show up ready to fence.

Let me go shoot my bow and I,ll be back.
 
In escrima you lefties have an advantage if you can take angle to the (your) right of your oponent leaving your blade/stick between you and him and his uselessly on his far side. The downside is if he can move to your right you are in the same situation. Whereas righthander vs. righthander (or left v left) both weapons are between you when taking angle.
 
I fenced collegiatly (first foil) for two years and as a 6'3", 200# lefty, I was quite intimidating on the piste. (Or so many of my teammates said...):D I found that attacking to a righty's BACK was especially confusing to them and after a successful touch or two opened up their chest a bit more.

The tourney where I faced another Lefty was a shock to BOTH of us! We just stood there looking at each other trying to figure out what was wrong...:D :D :D

Reach is an advantage, but IF you can get inside a long reach, you can do some damage very quickly. I had to learn a lot of close-quarters skills to use against the little speedy guys. A Fleche is always fun, but you usually only get away with it once.

Probably my favorite move was when I'd fence guys with martial arts training. (You could always tell by their footwork) I'd lunge with my lead foot out along the blade as in a high kick. They'd nearly always drop into a hand combat guard and pull their weapon off line. "Poink", I got you.

Now as far as fencing transferring to real-life fighting, you just need to remember, you don't stop after a single touch...

J-
 
Grob said:
In escrima you lefties have an advantage if you can take angle to the (your) right of your oponent leaving your blade/stick between you and him and his uselessly on his far side. The downside is if he can move to your right you are in the same situation. Whereas righthander vs. righthander (or left v left) both weapons are between you when taking angle.
Click to expand...

Of course, it would be helpful to know which discipline someone is talking about. (I'm talking about Olympic epee.)
I assume 'taking angle' is essentially pris-de-fer or similar form of opposition?

As you know, for every action there are multiple counteractions. In my discipline, the situation you describe (if I understand it correctly) could be called 'taking the blade in 4' since your action is across your 4 position (your blade moves to 4 as you attack with opposition. Opposition means your blade is between you and your opponent's blade, blocking or preventing him from hitting you on that line).

Interestingly, that's one I like to try AGAINST lefties, but only upon their extension. This will be part of a strong action against a weaker fencer, possibly a better one if you do it just right. It can be easily defeated in one of two ways by a decent fencer.

First is the disengage. Unless you really capture the blade and keep it moving forward until it hits, a better fencer will easily disengage by moving the point off your guard, underneath and around into your 6. He will then be in good position to hit you. The chances of this happening are greatly reduced by launching your attack-in-opposition at the right time --- just BEFORE he finishes his own advance or attack as I described earlier. If he's backing up, it will be a much more difficult attack to accomplish without being disengaged.
If you (a left handed fencer) does manage to close in 4 as you describe (or a right-handed fencer in 6) and my blade is dominated in that position as you're bringing your blade in, I'll cede to prime (1) [let my tip fall, raise my hand up and to the left side of my head] this results in my blade becoming parallel with and to the left side of my body with yours on the outside. From that position, the point is raised for the riposte to your leg or flank. Sounds complicated, but it's fast and very powerful and very common in better epee fencing.
Single-action attacks don't work too well against good fencers which is why, if that's all you've got, distance and timing are literally everything.
 
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