The Art of Fencing in Debate

What would be cool is if someone could come up with a format that you could fence this weapon all-out -- not just do choreographed moves.

This would have to include a scoring system and (more difficult) develop weapons that are larger, heavier and slower like these longswords, but that won't beat the heck out of the participant during normal competition. (I suspect it would end up looking something like Kendo.)

That's another nice thing about epee. You can fence all-out--as hard as you can --- with what is essentially a traditional-weight weapon--- without beating the heck out of each other. There aren't many combat-born disciplines like that. Whether it's stick fighting or Asian martial arts, you have to pull your punches or you could kill your opponent.
 
They do.
The level of realism goes up with better protective equipment. Some guys use full suits of traditionally made plate armor (that probably cost more than my house) for full contact sparring with unsharpened steel swords. Others use a conglamaration of protective sports equipment & modified kendo practice swords, etc.
 
the possum said:
They do.
The level of realism goes up with better protective equipment. Some guys use full suits of traditionally made plate armor (that probably cost more than my house) for full contact sparring with unsharpened steel swords. Others use a conglamaration of protective sports equipment & modified kendo practice swords, etc.
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I've seen some of that at SCA events, but haven't been satisfied with what I've seen, particularly in melee, but it might have just been poor quality??
 
I fenced sabre for a few years in college. This was just long enough for me to learn that I am the worst sabre fencer in the entire world (short-limbed, clumsy, entirely clueless re: right-of-way). I was OK at hitting people but terrible at hitting people in valid target areas. The only way I could beat the guys on the team was if I had them drink tequila before gearing up. A LOT of tequila. :grumpy:

kronckew said:
our fencing coach was a hungarian sabre champion (about 5ft 2in tall, tough as old boots), he'd been an officer in the imperial horse guard, and was in his late 70's when i knew him in '64-'68 and still could put a severe arse-whuppin' on you.
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I remember a tournament where our best guy was beaten by a guy about that old -- youth & speed vs. technique & experience. Final score was 5-4; while I can't remember particulars I remember it being a great match.
 
JCaswell, I invite you to get out onto the floor and try it. I think your satisfaction would be guaranteed.
 
Coldwood said:
JCaswell, I invite you to get out onto the floor and try it. I think your satisfaction would be guaranteed.
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I messed with Kendo a tad and could see it could be pretty cool.

I actually like edge weapons, (yes, even saber despite the B.S. conventions) because I like the obliqueness of the actions. I like the idea of trying a two-handed European tradition if I could find some people around that study it that aren't .... well... somewhat less than sane.

... I'm sure they exist, but I've never run into them. The few I've met that are into that stuff are goof-ball wannabes and/or occupying an alternative universe.
 
I assure you that I am less than sane and am not a goof ball. This ain't kendo. Too bad you're on the left coast, out of my reach. :D
 
Coldwood said:
I assure you that I am less than sane and am not a goof ball. This ain't kendo. Too bad you're on the left coast, out of my reach. :D
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What is it exactly that you do? (What would you call your fencing discipline?)
 
Kevin the grey said:
Would fleche have an accent on the second e? As in Fleché. It sounds like something people with a flair would say . It seems to me the fencing sort would like grand flourishes. I do see where "Arrow" comes into it. If Your feet were behind your center of gravity with your sword arm extended you would somewhat be traveling like an arrow. Recovery from that kind of paradox must be slow. I wonder if Spanish fencers are good at defending against a fleche?
Careful they don,t treat you like a bull.

Would a fleche in real life kind of be considered a last ditch move?
An awl(oh thats bad) or nothing kind of deal.
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Yes, fleche would have an accent and it is just as you said, because of the 'arrow-like' quality of it.

A fleche is often a last-ditch move of a poor fencer (and it will probably not work), but it's also a top-shelf move of a quality fencer.

Though it's a big, fast attack, it should be used at pretty close range. The reason is that if your opponent is backing up and parrying, he's extending the length of your vulnerability. It's also important to be able to disengage while fleching for obvious reasons. If I see the fleche coming I find it highly effective to attack into it with opposition just as it's launched --- before a disengage can develop. More than half the time I parry it and riposte to the back or butt as he goes by.

In real life-and-death, the fleche can conceivably be the best bet if you're intending to kill your opponent (rather than wound him for honor as was more often the case in later duels where you'd get hung for killing someone in a duel). The reason is that if the fleche is timed properly, and there's opposition, it can be extremely difficult to defeat and can be extremely safe for the attacker---you're past the opponent's point so he'd have to bend his arm and disengage to get the point on, but by that time he's transfixed and you're behind him running out of harms way.
The danger of using the fleche is that a good fencer is expecting it --- is watching for it, in fact. If not launched in good time or without opposition, you're probably going to get hit.

Recovery from a fleche is usually irrelevant because you're so far past the opponent so quickly. Recovering from a short fleche should be faster than a lunge, but your ending position will be much less precise than a lunge.
 
I got into fencing at the behest of my 16 year old daughter, who has been doing it for over a year. I am old an slow... I am a fairly serious competitive pistol shooter however, and got into fencing - a) as an activity to do with my daughter, b) as an opportunity to get off my butt more, and c) to improve my quickness and speed for action pistol shooting.

I have to say it has been a success all around.

Our coach, an 86 year old Frenchman, Master at Arms, made me a lefty, though I'm a natural righty, to provide the lefty experience to members of the club. I'm really just a tackling dummy, but I get out of the activity what I want, and I feel it does have real world application, especially epee, which is what I enjoy the most.

It is an interesting and multi-faceted sport, and good for all ages and constitutions.

Andy
 
Coldwood said:
Kevin, you have to pick up the blade...:D Everything else is speculation.
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Hey wait a minute. You command me to pick up a blade? Thems fightin words.:rolleyes:

A case of beer says I can puncture your pride if not your hide.

I demand a duel"Au Pleasance" at least it will be pleasant for me.:cool:

A light sword Sir, to give this old man a chance . I will chase you hither and yon.

Who am I kidding? :confused: Still Sir,Still, I may surprise you. Until warmer times you may rest easy.
 
Well said Kevin :D lol I look forward to it, next summer hey? It'll be a party.

Andrew C, you've got the right attitude, don't take this s... too seriously, have fun with it...good for you and your daughter...it will also keep your hips from going bad, take that from another old timer.

JCaswell...you're long on theory, son, I just wonder how much fencing you've actually done. Talk is cheap on these forums, but that's why we're all here, 'ey? ;)
My fencing discipline? Go back and read my earlier posts.
 
Coldwood said:
JCaswell...you're long on theory, son, I just wonder how much fencing you've actually done. Talk is cheap on these forums, but that's why we're all here, 'ey? ;)
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Haha!

Rather than give you a resume, suffice it to say I have been fortunate enough to win many USFA A-level Open competitions (Which means, of course, I've got an "A" rating in epee.) Been doing epee a while in one of the countries strongest epee divisions and am privileged to fence three times a week or so with some of the best in the country.

All you said was something about Renaissance stuff, unless I missed it. Have to go back and check. What would that be? Rapier?


Edit: Aha! SCA. Haven't gotten out to play with those boys, though occasionally one will wander in and try electric epee. You can pick an SCA guy out of a crowd. Definitely a different breed (no put-down intended).
 
JCaswell said:
Holy smokes! The valid saber target area is the entire upper body--everything from the waist up !!
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Heh... like I said, "worst in the entire world". :) They need to create a Bizarro sabre event where the valid target area is the groin, legs and feet. ;)
 
hi kevin,

the word fleche is indeed derived from the french word for arrow, a good description is at This Linky, while not really a 'last ditch' move, it is used when you suspect an opponent who is falling into a patterned response is not concentrating and may be liable to a surprise via an unusual tactic. i've stabbed a lot of lower legs and feet with it in my competitive younger years :) .

i prefer epee as it allows the entire body from the soles of the feet to the top of your head, front & back, as well as the groin area - much more realistic than the sabre or foil targets. the epee is a fairly stiff triangular blade, suitable for actual combat or duelling for real. it can hurt & leave bruises, and people have been impaled on blades where the blunt tip has broken into a sharp point ( i still have a scar on my tummy from one of them from some guy's blade at NYU - luckily it just went thru the skin, not into the muscle or abdominal cavity under). i always thought it would be neat to have a more two diminsional area to fence in rather than the linear strip you are forced into. the hungarian instructor beat that out of me after a few attempts. nothing like getting smacked on the bum with a sabre to concentrate the mind.
 
kronckew said:
hi kevin,
. i've stabbed a lot of lower legs and feet with it in my competitive younger years :) .

nothing like getting smacked on the bum with a sabre to concentrate the mind.
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quote. i've stabbed a lot of lower legs and feet with it in my competitive younger years :) .quote

Gets off yer knees and aim higher in life, blast ye. :p

quote. nothing like getting smacked on the bum with a sabre to concentrate the mind.quote

Keeps yer sex talk fer the boudoir. :eek:
 
Arhhh! an' here i be thinkin' yer wuz gone, guess me an' ol' one eye'll have ter move outta the cap'ns cabin an back ter our old locker on the Black Duck. she'll be happy ter gets her pink shower curtain back when ye gets back onboard, she borryed me spare knickers, but they don't cover up all her pudgy bits. she's almost done convertin' the old jib sail we found in the sail locker inter a nice frock. all she needs now are some stockings ter hide the holes in her legs an' feet, and i promised ter stop playin mumbly-peg wif my dirk when she wuz around.....
 
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