The Art of Fencing in Debate

A Fleche is always fun, but you usually only get away with it once.

That's not the case anymore. There are very successful fencers that will fleche every other action. The cursed younger ones in particular do it a lot.

A couple months ago I ran into former national champ (current number 2) in a D.E. at the L.A Invitational. He fleched at me at least a dozen times. In my case it didn't work too well for him (a few double touches and a lot successful parries for me.), but he was chewing people up with it earlier.

The better young guys fence a pretty dynamic game with a lot of movement up and down the strip these days. It's a style well suited to the fleche, since the fleche can be so well disguised within all the other movement (boxer-like bouncing) etc.
 
Probably my favorite move was when I'd fence guys with martial arts training. (You could always tell by their footwork) I'd lunge with my lead foot out along the blade as in a high kick. They'd nearly always drop into a hand combat guard and pull their weapon off line. "Poink", I got you. Quote.

REPLY :
Terrible,sneaky,underhanded. I love it. That is one I,ll remember for sure . Fleche is arrow to me . I am sure you guys are not throwing your foils at the other guy? Well maybe Coldwood but thats another story.;)

Attacking the mans back. Is that a way of describing moving in towards the unprotected side?
Move in if the other fellow is circling away from your sword arm. Perhaps a lunge?

Especially now that it is mentioned it is rather like a dance. I hope to have the other fellow pay the piper.:cool: As has been said when he is almost at the end of his extension he is the most vulnerable. I wonder if there is a feint to make him overextend at that point. He would be off balance. He may be able to move the sword. He would have a harder time moving his body.

I can,t wait until I see my boken buddy again. My footwork will astound him.
I will dazzle him with my brilliance. Unfortunately the last guy who tried that had his Boken broken in two.
My buddy doesn,t go much for that brilliance thing . He figures at sixty nine he knows it all.
 
I wonder if there is a feint to make him overextend at that point. He would be off balance. He may be able to move the sword. He would have a harder time moving his body.

If he's overextending you're too late.

A fleche is a type of running attack best executed at pretty short distance, the touch ideally being delivered about the time (possibly before--sometimes after) the rear foot lands, having 'crossed over' the front. The classic fleche looks like someone way off ballance reaching forward with both feet behind the central mass of the body. (You can probably get pics by goggling it).
Most fleches don't look anything like a classic fleche. Rather, they just sort of explode forward like a runner out of the blocks. Tactically, this style of fleche is meant to take one shot and end the action by passing the opponent as quickly as possible so as not to get hit with a parry-riposte. It's very effective, especially if you don't have particularly strong infighting skills, or you're fencing a rather dangerous opponent and you don't want to be in front of his blade too long after closing.

Shorter fleches will look more like the classic fleche (at least when first launched). The shorter fleche is handy if you're fencing an advanced opponent (who will likely parry the initial portion of your fleche attack) and only if you have strong remise and infighting skills. Often I'll fleche a quality opponent that will pick up my blade in his routine parry-riposte system, but because I can often disengage these parries before he's finished parrying, I can 'slip off' and hit him with one or two remise shots before he can finish his parry and get his point back on target (by this time there may be 15-20 inches between us.)
If I can't slip off, and he's coming in with the riposte, I'll automatically take a counte-parry-riposte in 1, as mentioned earlier. After that it's just intuitive, but the action will be over pretty quick. Someone either gets hit, or is off the strip, or you're corps-a-corps.

Attacking on the back is something you'll see more in foil, though it happens in epee too. It usually goes like this:

Opponent lunges to a deep target such as the chest. His blade is picked up in 6 (that would be a counter parry 6 --- capturing the blade with a clockwise (for right handed) or counterclockwise (for lefty) circular motion of the blade. The opponents foible is now at the crux of your forte and guard, but you don't complete a 6 parry which would end up ushering the opponents blade safely off target to the far right (right handed) or left (left handed). Rather, In one smooth, and hopefully swift, motion the hand is lifted upward along with the blade and you make a forward whipping motion or 'Flick' to the opponents back right over his weapon-hand shoulder preferably while his foible is still trapped on your guard.

In foil, you can do this more easily than epee because the blades are far whippier and you have the 'right-of-way' convention that can make this attack practical without taking you're opponent's blade at all. In epee you'd better have his blade or you'll be hit somewhere in the wind up. Again, this is tough to explain, but when you see it it's all very quick (probably about 1 second from the beginning of the parry to the completed flick.)

Obviously, most of this won't be immediately relevant if you're using Boken.
 
A great deal of that is possibly more advanced than I will ever be. What I hope for is just to hold my own against a less well prepared opponent.

Very nice to read . There is a true sense that it is a game of strategy as much as a dance . Feeling out an opponent . seeing how he reacts and taking advantage of it.

It is the translation from "Meet to Street" that interests me the most at this point. While I always enjoyed watching the play between opponents it is self defence that is of primary importance with me .

The Boken is something I want to learn simple moves with . I enjoy its feel and weight . I have a very bad back . Serious swinging with it is out of the question.

A light cane, swagger stick or walking stick may be just the ticket . I do not wish to offend sensibilities. The advice I have gotten is obviously from people who take what they do seriously . If I get the opportunity I would like to approach this in a formal manner. There is a fineness to it.
 
The Boken is something I want to learn simple moves with . I enjoy its feel and weight

Or why not try with a bastard sword in historical fencing style, some very sneaky moves there!

TLM
 
I love to go against an opponent who has a "system" because I love to tear it apart.

My first training was Olympic style on a runway, the best thing I learned from that was footwork. We can talk about bladework, but good foot work is essential in maintaining range and distance.

Now I practice SCA Renaissance style fencing where we fight in the round, meaning we can circle, and are not confined to a linear strip. We also use the "offhand", meaning the weak hand (left hand for us righties) is presumed to be covered with chain mail and we can use it to block or parry the opponent's blade. There's a collection of rules regarding how many cuts or thrusts it takes to lose a limb. If you lose a hand or arm, you have to switch to the weak hand.

It's all great fun and games, but I would like to see the day we can incorporate grappling, punching and kicking to get closer to real rapier fighting :D
 
I love to go against an opponent who has a "system" because I love to tear it apart.

My first training was Olympic style on a runway, the best thing I learned from that was footwork. We can talk about bladework, but foot work is essential in maintaining range and distance. Then there's that whole other issue of "right of way" in Olympic fencing, which never made any sense to me for practical sword fighting.

Now I practice SCA Renaissance style fencing where we fight in the round, meaning we can circle, and are not confined to a linear strip. We also use the "offhand", meaning the weak hand (left hand for us righties) is presumed to be covered with chain mail and we can use it to block or parry the opponent's blade. There's a collection of rules regarding how many cuts or thrusts it takes to lose a limb. If you lose a hand or arm, you have to switch to the weak hand.

It's all great fun and games, but I would like to see the day we can incorporate grappling, punching and kicking to get closer to real rapier fighting :D
 
Oops, sorry for the double post :D

Kevin the Grey:
"Terrible,sneaky,underhanded. I love it. That is one I,ll remember for sure . Fleche is arrow to me . I am sure you guys are not throwing your foils at the other guy? Well maybe Coldwood but thats another story."

Kevin, Kevin, Kevin: What am I going to do with you? Maybe poke you in the eye with a big fat rubber-tipped schlager? No, not really ;). When you come south of the border, we'll play :D
 
Oops, sorry for the double post :D

Kevin, Kevin, Kevin: What am I going to do with you? Maybe poke you in the eye with a big fat rubber-tipped schlager? No, not really ;). When you come south of the border, we'll play :D

I,ll bring me rubber undies.
 
It's been years since I held a foil, so I don't have much real advice. But I do distinctly recall the first time I fenced a leftie. He joined the club already having some experience, and the time came that we faced eachother in a practice bout. He had drilled a bit with the instructor earlier, but I never even noticed he was left handed.

We saluted, donned our masks, got on guard, and then I thought, "What the hell? Somethin' don't look right here..." I probably stood there completely puzzled for about 5 seconds, and lowered my foil, stood up, and took off my mask. "You're left handed!" I stuttered. Well, duh. We both chucked and then got on with it. I don't even remember who "won" that one, but recall that he had played around in the SCA a bit, and kept trying to use his off hand to grab my blade. :D
 
The Arkansas Hiking Staff would be good in a den corner or on a mountainside.

The gentlemans walking stick seems the most useful to me. Its handle curve would loan itself to being a pommel/counterweight.

There were a couple of nice canes there . I saw most being ordinary for the price . If the quality is in the strength with form following function they would be worth it. I also have a couple of canes. None as nice as The gentleman version .

I can just see myself explaining to the judge exactly why Mr. punk lost use of a few of his appendages .
" But your honor says I . I,m a gentleman."

Ahrrr this be Kevin,s evil twin. I takes the wheel of his left hand whiles that gentleman pansy ships sail with the right. Don'ts be mistaking me fer his fops foolery.
When I lays one on ye below yer waterline there won,t be any magistrates about.
The only court that will convene be in Davy Jones locker.

Ahrrr its a pirates life for me.

On that we can agree.

Keeps yer weather eye on my right hand.

Whiles I slaps you with me left in the gland.

Yohoho and a bottle of rum.

I,ll takes yer eye out with me thumb.

Just you keep yer eye on me right hand dear.

and I,ll take that one too have no fear.

A pirates always right even when he's not.

Fear me left hand the other can go rot.
 
Fear is a small thing when based upon the crowd.

I would rather stand in silence than grumble out the loud.

Its being gauche thats right even if its left.

For me to think otherwise would leave me bereft.

I understand the sinister,

as if it were my minister.

If we meet and hands do shake.

I understand your knees do quake.

You may be right, I am whats left.

I have the liberty your skull to cleft.

Fear not, stand strong , side by side we,ll fight.

Just don,t try to tell me that you are always right.
 
It's all great fun and games, but I would like to see the day we can incorporate grappling, punching and kicking to get closer to real rapier fighting :D

And at that point, we would be about as close as we could be to traditional European swordplay as we could get without actually killing one another. I would love love love love to see something like this, with the provision of course that only period techniques were used; while I and others have noted considerable overlap between eastern and western techniques, I personally would not want to use or see anything that wasn't appropriate to the setting, and "wrong" things would have to be penalized as appropriate.

And think of the new weapon categories...would anyone else like to watch "epee and chair" matches besides me? ;)

The Dog Brothers are close to this, but that level of intensity is probably not appropriate for mainstream competition. They set a good example however. I think people would watch it if it were televised. If people are watching it, significant revenue can be generated and the sport can grow. Perhaps that's a cynical way of looking at it but that's the way that I see it. What seperates American football from fencing? (Or most other Olympic sports, for that matter?)

Stepping back a bit, I personally feel that Olympic style fencing could benefit from a relaxing of the rules. I fully understand that this is not sword fighting but a sport, but still...when I hear about things like fleches, I can't help but wonder if we haven't gotten away from the original concept a bit. Perhaps a bit of MMA thrown in would be just what the doctor ordered, not only to freshen up the sport and switch things up a bit, but also to make it more of a spectator sport for the masses?

I'd watch it, anyway. :)
 
There's a small but growing western martial arts movement. I believe it was originally fostered by folks out of SCA and similar organizations. Very interesting stuff. While I have fully enjoyed eastern arts (and hope to continue in them as time allows) I am happy to see the western marttial tradition being studied.

This is the style I've been playing in for the last few months:

http://www.oldworldmartialarts.com/

And a sister school in BC
http://www.academieduello.com/

Here's some zombie defense material ;)
http://www.academieduello.com/zombies/zombies.html

and a few more
http://tattershall.discoperta.com/

http://www.aemma.org/

Pat
 
Dave Rishar, I love epee and chair! That's the whole point, sword fighting in the 14th, 15th, 16th centuries was like gun fighting in what we imagine to be the Old West.

I respect the discipline and control of Olympic fighting, but I love the rough and ready aspects of Renaissance fighting.

I've gone head to head with with guys who were Eastern Martial artists...and I respect them...but Western sword fighting was a mystery to them and they were vulnerable. They got stabbed.
 
Stepping back a bit, I personally feel that Olympic style fencing could benefit from a relaxing of the rules. I fully understand that this is not sword fighting but a sport, but still...when I hear about things like fleches, I can't help but wonder if we haven't gotten away from the original concept a bit.

This is why I fence epee. There is no right-of-way, there is no target restriction. Really almost anything goes (you can't grab the blade or go off the strip, but that's about it.) I think the conventional weapon, Foil and Saber, are terrible to watch, unless you really know what's going on, and have drifted the furthest from the combat roots of swordplay. The basic approach of modern epee could translate well into a real combat system -- especially since it concentrates on real-world timing (not artificial right-of-way) and usually prefers attacks with opposition, which is the safest way to attack without getting hit. Attacks with opposition in foil or saber are not as preferred because it can confuse the director as to who's action it was.

From what I've read, real epee duels (fenced into the 20thC) were often approached with very conservative sport fencing techniques, sometimes with the duelist's sharpened competition weapon for the job. A lot of stop-hits, short target shots, etc. Of course earlier sword duels have an extremely bloody history, often resulting in two dead duelists each run through many times.
The fleche, however is a valid combat technique, though in real life it would not necessarily stop the action (which would make it much more dangerous). Still there is ample historical precedent for it.

I'd like to see wireless electric epee fenced in a circle (like a big Judo circle or something) with additionally relaxed rules. No halts for going out of the circle. Instead, it's a touch against for the one stepping out of the circle. No halts for other reasons except things related to safety and after each touch. This, I think, would add a great deal to the game and combine the benefits of Olympic Epee (primarily a consistent, objective scoring system) with the added spacial latitude of some of the other sword games being played.
 
You guys might enjoy checking out this video then, from the Zornhau site.
http://www.zornhau.de/source/zornhau.php (Enter the main site, and Double click on the left video clip to open it bigger from U-tube.)
It's a bit off topic since it's on the German longsword tradition, but towards the end there is a bit of grappling and other moves you won't see in an epee match.

And if you're interested, this link explains the names of the different moves portrayed. http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=810721#post810721
 
Would fleche have an accent on the second e? As in Fleché. It sounds like something people with a flair would say . It seems to me the fencing sort would like grand flourishes. I do see where "Arrow" comes into it. If Your feet were behind your center of gravity with your sword arm extended you would somewhat be traveling like an arrow. Recovery from that kind of paradox must be slow. I wonder if Spanish fencers are good at defending against a fleche?
Careful they don,t treat you like a bull.

Would a fleche in real life kind of be considered a last ditch move?
An awl(oh thats bad) or nothing kind of deal.

When I hear of fighting with swords and chairs it reminds me of Lee Marvin in Cat Balou.
The Scene where he challenges the recalcitrant young man to a duel. Marvin smashes a
chair and says,

Guns ,Bottles,clubs or knives ?

Its all the same to me.

Is it all the same to you?
 
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