The Blade Show-A LOT of Overpriced Customs

SharpByCoop said:
I was a little disappointed that the opening salvo thread in review of the Blade Show, had a negative slant. To that, Anthony made his points--or his opinions, but it was limited in it's scope to be biased towards the forged fixed-blade lovers crowd.

But the title of the thread doesn't allude to that. It appears EVERY custom maker is guilty. Couldn't there be tons of stock-removal folder makers whose work was a screamin value? Maybe. I dunno.

No biggie, but this is how I viewed it.

Regardless, I like to hear the good AND the semi-bad, and this was an honest appraisal from someone who went there. Thanks. As always be careful with your words, especially in a title. It paints with a broad swipe.

Coop
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Hey, Mr. Context Police:rolleyes: ,

Anthony went, you and I did not. We both have our reasons.

I think Anthony showed some remarkable restraint, and a solid set of stones for what the information he presented. I tend towards the more confrontational, you tend more towards the milquetoast, so as not to potentially offend future customers with delicate sensibilities.

The funny thing is that Anthony is unvarnished, for the most part, in his writing here, and that does not seem to cost him writing gigs in the magazines. I totally appreciated it, and from what my spies tell me, he is dead on the money.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
I noticed some silly high prices at some tables but by late
Saturday there were lots popular makers that were sold out and a percentage of the $1000+ crew complaining about lack of sales.

I listened to a MS on the front right side complain that attendes were not spending money this year while both of the makers at the neighboring tables
chuckling because they had sold out.

Tomahawks and tactical pens seemed to the most overpriced.

I was able to find a few nice buys and Bob Dozier is still offering bargins.
 
Prices do have to go up, but value doesn't. I can understand all the reasons for prices increasing. Economic pressures will always mean that over time we knife collectors will be paying more. That doesn't mean that when comparing prices now to prices last years that there shouldn't be just as much value being offered. If a certain knife from a maker was $500.00 last year and it is $600.00 this year, does that offer equal value or not? It depends on whether the maker's finished product has increased in quality. If so, then $600.00 is still good value. If not, then a 20% increase in price is far higher than the increase in the cost of making the knife and value has gone down.

What is and isn't good value in custom knives is a topic for another thread.
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Well said Keith. I do think that basic living costs have also increased, and that, added to production costs and currency exchange problems had a major influence in prices in my part of the world. I will not comment on value increasing of Brazilian knives. You guys have been there and have seen for yourselves so you can pass better judgement on this particular subject. One thing we can all ask ourselves is how much our personal living costs have increased in the last year... how much of our lifestyle we had to give up in that time and how much has the prices of the services we provide in our jobs (for those who are not knife makers) for the final costumer have increased.

On the other hand, there's the quality issue which is, my my humble opinion, unexcuseble.

I really enjoyed your review Anthony and everybodys imput on the subjects.
 
SharpByCoop said:
Couldn't there be tons of stock-removal folder makers whose work was a screamin value? Maybe. I dunno.
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Maybe someone that was there can add their two cents on what was being offered by the stock removal guys.
 
Unfortunately I was unable to attend the blde show this year. I would however like to put in a makers point of view. Just to give an Idea, I recently attended a show with an out of pocket expense of over $1000.00. I sold $900.00 worth of product so it was a net loss of $100. This does not take into account the cost of the materials I had in the knives I sold. When i attended the Blade Show to test for my JS it cost just under $1200 and I did not have a table. The cost of some steel has increased by up to 100% in the last 2 years and the cost of quality handle material has really taken a jump. I do not condone overpricing of the work that is offered. Since I did not attend I can not make a judgement in regards to what was available. As was pointed out some makers sell out quickly and some complain of no sales. This is were the cost of the product will be dertermined by the customer. If you as a customer feel the cost is too expensive you can either pass it up or ask the maker why and then possibley negotiate a lower price. Well I could ramble for much longer but I think I said the way I feel.

CHuck
 
What I wonder is whether shows are an economically viable proposition these days. The way I look at it, 3 days in Atlanta in a hotel, plus 2 or 3 nice knives, would cost me as much as a 1 week diving vacation in Cozumel. I'm much better off buying knives online.
 
Some stock-removers with screaming value I saw was "Ohta" and Kansei Matsuno.

Both sold out on Friday.

Ohta had a table of stag folders that looked great for well under $500.

Japan is not a cheap place to live. Quite an expensive plane trip, also.
 
What I wonder is whether shows are an economically viable proposition these days. The way I look at it, 3 days in Atlanta in a hotel, plus 2 or 3 nice knives, would cost me as much as a 1 week diving vacation in Cozumel. I'm much better off buying knives online.
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Shows are a crash course in knife buying. You can develop a much better eye for quality and design by handling hundreds of knives in a few days which you will never have the opportunity to do online.

However Joss, since you know what you like already, the internet makes a lot of sense, but there is nothing that compare to holding the knife in your hand and talking to the maker face-to-face about the details, etc.

Shows should never be a money-loser for a maker. If they are, at least it is a write-off, but if you don't sell out at a big show, it is time to re-evaluate your product, its pricing or your market. That is simply good business.
Makers who lose money going to quality knife shows don't stay in business very long. If they do its because this is a hobby or second career that isn't required to put food on the table.
 
Unfortunately I was unable to attend the blde show this year. I would however like to put in a makers point of view. Just to give an Idea, I recently attended a show with an out of pocket expense of over $1000.00. I sold $900.00 worth of product so it was a net loss of $100. This does not take into account the cost of the materials I had in the knives I sold. When i attended the Blade Show to test for my JS it cost just under $1200 and I did not have a table. The cost of some steel has increased by up to 100% in the last 2 years and the cost of quality handle material has really taken a jump. I do not condone overpricing of the work that is offered. Since I did not attend I can not make a judgement in regards to what was available. As was pointed out some makers sell out quickly and some complain of no sales. This is were the cost of the product will be dertermined by the customer. If you as a customer feel the cost is too expensive you can either pass it up or ask the maker why and then possibley negotiate a lower price. Well I could ramble for much longer but I think I said the way I feel
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Chuck,
You bring up some very good points.
You went to the Blade show and spent $1200 to test but didn't bring any knives to sell? That sounds like an error in judgement. What about your test knives?

You say that steel has doubled in price? Really?

Last time I checked, most straight carbon steel was between $5 and $20 a pound with the average around $8. How many pounds do you use on your knives?

I am not being contentious--I am just trying to make a point. Material cost. gas, electric, whatever is NOT the issue. These are small aspects of the overall cost of the knife.

A forged 9" ironwood bowie will use approximately $10-$15 in steel. $15-$35 in handle materials and maybe even scrap (iron or leftover steel) for the guard. If we assume $10-$20 in belts and abrasives and then $5 in power/electricity to make it, obviously the rest is labor. That's $40-75 in materials. The rest is labor and shop costs which should be amortized out in every knife sold.

So lets not get carried away, generally the materials used in making straightforward, carbon steel blades are not expensive and if they are, the customer will oftentimes supply them or pay for them up front.

I want every knifemaker to prosper and make a good profit on goods sold.

I just cannot explain the big price increases away as anything but poor business acumen or a lackadaisical approach to pricing. Or that maybe makers just cannot seem to make enough knives in a timely fashion to support their livelihoods. That may just be the root of it all.
 
I spoke to a few makers who look at shows as a business expense rather than a lucrative undertaking. They were pretty convincing and consistent. Time away from the shop, travel expense, room and board - it's a lot to balance against the profit made from selling a handful of knives. With all the oustanding orders waiting to be filled, makers often don't feel justified making a large number of knives to sell at shows. Not everyone sells out and, given the time investment in to the really well done work, I don't think the profit margin is that high despite the inexpensive material costs. I agree 100% that the prices were a bit surprising for much of what I saw but I don't think that going to shows is a big money maker for most guys.
 
It may not be a money maker as far as cost of show vs profit from knives sold at show, but it's probably crucial in terms of getting your name and work out there to be seen by the collecting public and to pull in more customers.
 
Anthony Lombardo said:
I am not being contentious--I am just trying to make a point. Material cost. gas, electric, whatever is NOT the issue. These are small aspects of the overall cost of the knife.

A forged 9" ironwood bowie will use approximately $10-$15 in steel. $15-$35 in handle materials and maybe even scrap (iron or leftover steel) for the guard. If we assume $10-$20 in belts and abrasives and then $5 in power/electricity to make it, obviously the rest is labor. That's $40-75 in materials. The rest is labor and shop costs which should be amortized out in every knife sold.
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Those "small costs" are not small when you add them all up! My health insurance alone costs over $500 a month... every month, for example. I'll bet you $ to doughnuts if you set yourself up a shop, you'll see what I mean. ;) Two itty bitty cutters for the milling machine: $150. BTW: I don't think you're being contentiuos!

I'd also say your cost calculation model for a knife isn't very accurate. A lot more goes into even a forged knife than you have listed. A Maker using your calculation model would be broke in no time or very soon wondering why there isn't any money in the bank at the end of the month.

I've done a lot of shows over the years and the vast majority of exhibitors NEVER sell out. Even a good percentage of those who "sell out" had a lot of knives pre-sold before they ever left home. Otherwise there are always guys who do really well and others who sell nada... sometimes it's tough to figure out the reasons why. Most Makers who have been around will tell you of at least one time when they had a disaster show... :eek:


Keith,

regarding your post about the $500 knife costing $600... ah, the thing is the same value and quality knife you bought last year for $500 may very well cost $600 this year. It's not that the Makers are making last year's $500 knife into a $600 this year. Prices have gone up but the product has stayed the same. Like a lot of things we all buy. The one thing I have fond buyers of custom knives will not tolerate is shoddy quality. Makers are better off raising prices than reducing quality.

I think perhaps many Makers have avoided increasing prices over the last few years and now they are seeing their bottom line going way into the red zone and have had to react all at once rather than taking smaller increases over a longer time span.

Another reason may be professional Makers don't purchase materials in small amounts but buy larger quantities to get a better deal. I buy titanium once or twice a year direct from a global concern so when I call up and get a new quote after 8 months and find a 70% price increase, I have to raise my folder prices or fold up shop. Customers don't see that the knives they have been buying from me for the past 6 months made from the old stock of Ti were actually under priced for the current titanium situation... but when I bought more Ti, my folder prices went up about 20% across the product line and that was plain for all to see.

The consumer has to decide if the product is worth the price to them that the seller is asking. The other deciding factor is whether or not the consumer actually has the money! I think some high end sports cars are certainly worth the asking price, it's just like Woody Guthrie used to sing, " I ain't got tha Doe ray me."
 
Great thread Anthony. purple guard... aaaarrrrg drool drool. hope Shawn had a great show.

My two cents worth re handle material. I won't use fake stag but I love Giraffe bone. Stable, big, easy to work and tough. Sure on a $1000+ knife maybe a more flash material like Mastadon would be a better choice and appear to offer better value and sit better in the secondary market.

Coversley the same piece of mastadon on a hunter would hike the price to a rediculously high level and subsequently portray less value for money. The same thing happens with too much or the wrong type of engraving added to a knife.

Using this formula we can go back to the fake stag. On a $150 dollar knife it would probably be fine and would sell ok. Use real stag or Giraffe bone on the same knife and suddenly you need to find a buyer with an extra $100 bucks in his pocket for the same knife. There goes the value for money again.

This is the fine line that many makers walk and it's not easy to get it right every time. In the end the market will sort it out anyway, when something does not sell the price always comes down.

End of sermon, hope it made sense:thumbup:

Peter
 
The economy is making a lot of people look harder at their discretionary spending and most custom knives fall into the nice to have category. While custom knives are a luxury item for most people, to a lot of makers, its their liveihood. Even if the cost of gas, steel, handle materials and a 101 comusables are going up, they still have to buy them to stay in business. I know the cost of steel has gone up a lot, on 440C, its more than doubled in price in a little over a year. These costs have to be passed on to the customer or the maker goes under. We must also not forget not every knife sells, customers who order change their mind or can no longer afford it and the maker may have to sell to another customer at a lose, mistakes happen and knives and materials are damaged and have to be discarded and replaced but you can't charge the customer for new materials or lost time.
 
I didn't look at a lot of prices, but there were some pieces that definitely had dips and waves. Not something I was expecting from some ABS makers. They were hard to miss with the way you walk down rows and the bright lighting. There were plenty of "incredibles" though including Muller, Hanson, Roberts, Camerer, Farr and many more.
 
Thanks for all the replies. I am just not sure what has spurred the big price increases. Kevin, your replies are shedding some light on a difficult subject.
So how much does it cost to make a forged knife? Most makers don't have fancy mills, lathes or other expensive tool and the forge, anvil, power hammer , propane and other tools/expenses should be amortized within every knife.

Is the economy bad? I am not sure it is so bad here. New houses everywhere and lots of nice new cars with 5% unemployment. Doesn't look to bad from my perspective.
 
Anthony,

I think that based on propane, steel and travel costs a 5-7% a base increase was probably warranted on every knife brought to Blade this year as opposed to last year. All those Pickups in the lot, from far away, probably burned a few hundred gallons on average to get to Atlanta. The fact of the matter is that a lot makers can't recoupe these costs because their increased prices will lead to unsold knives, which will eventually drive them out of the knife business. It is not good or bad, it is just the forces of the market at work.

Here is a different perspective on price increases. I actually want to buy makers who increase their prices a few percentage points each year because they have improved their skills and are delivering a superior knife to last years version. There might be a dozen makers who fall into this exalted catagory, imho.

There are also a few guys who start believing their own hype and press clippings and go for the big increases. This might work for a few years, IF the guy is really hot, but it simply is not sustainable, imho. There are too many high quality makers out there who will start attracting the buyers dollar as the gap in relative value increases.
 
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