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Peter, we are in agreement 100%.
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The Blade Show-A LOT of Overpriced Customs
- Thread starter Bladeandbarrel
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From an economic perspective, we're finally beginning to feel the cumulative lagged effect of recent interest rate increases and rising materials costs. Just look at what home prices, car sales, and consumer confidence have done in the past few months.
So, from the demand side of the equation, things might be a little softer today than they were 6 months ago.
On the supply side, as has been mentioned, material costs have risen sharply, as have expenses associated with travel, accomodations, etc. Keep in mind also that makers need to cover not only the materials costs, but their higher cost of living as well. Every one of us needs our wages to keep pace with inflation just to stay even.
So makers have to raise prices - in many cases by more than just the token 5% - at a time when demand for discretionary and luxury items may be starting to taper off in some segments of the market. This will result in some makers not meeting their sales targets.
I saw some knives at the show that I felt were overpriced. Many of them sold, some didn't. I saw one knife on the table of a Mastersmith that would not have passed JS judging, but the quality of most others was as good if not better than last year.
All that said, I did see some some great knives for sale at prices I was willing to pay. I bought seven new customs at the show.
P.S. - regarding the price increases from the Brazilians, let's not ignore the fact that one of them - Rodrigo Sfreddo - won this year's George Peck award.
So, from the demand side of the equation, things might be a little softer today than they were 6 months ago.
On the supply side, as has been mentioned, material costs have risen sharply, as have expenses associated with travel, accomodations, etc. Keep in mind also that makers need to cover not only the materials costs, but their higher cost of living as well. Every one of us needs our wages to keep pace with inflation just to stay even.
So makers have to raise prices - in many cases by more than just the token 5% - at a time when demand for discretionary and luxury items may be starting to taper off in some segments of the market. This will result in some makers not meeting their sales targets.
I saw some knives at the show that I felt were overpriced. Many of them sold, some didn't. I saw one knife on the table of a Mastersmith that would not have passed JS judging, but the quality of most others was as good if not better than last year.
All that said, I did see some some great knives for sale at prices I was willing to pay. I bought seven new customs at the show.
P.S. - regarding the price increases from the Brazilians, let's not ignore the fact that one of them - Rodrigo Sfreddo - won this year's George Peck award.
This lagging phenomenon is very interesting.
A story: This past month, my local energy supplier (Gas and Electric) decided that because rate caps were not reapproved, they could increase their charging rates to what they felt was the market price.
Their prices for electricity are going up 72% this month.
-j
A story: This past month, my local energy supplier (Gas and Electric) decided that because rate caps were not reapproved, they could increase their charging rates to what they felt was the market price.
Their prices for electricity are going up 72% this month.
-j
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No one is disputing their quality, just the prices.
I think we are in a crowded knife market with too many "full-time" makers fighting over too few "part-time" collectors.
I hate to say it, but I think we are headed for large scale, major attrition in the custom maker department.
Value, like beauty is in the eye of the beholder, thats for sure, but there are such huge differences between some comparable makers in price and such major increases among others that I am not sure it always purely about economics.
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Anthony, overpriced is relative term. The makers are only trying to get the most money they can for their time and effort. Just like anyone else would. Can you blame them?
The laws of supply and demand are very efficient at leveling the playing field. As a buyer, you can pick and choose which items you are willing to buy. As a seller you would want to maximize the $$$ that you bring home. It's just the way it is. If makers are able to move the knives at higher prices then god bless them. IMHO
The laws of supply and demand are very efficient at leveling the playing field. As a buyer, you can pick and choose which items you are willing to buy. As a seller you would want to maximize the $$$ that you bring home. It's just the way it is. If makers are able to move the knives at higher prices then god bless them. IMHO
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You are correct. It is my perception. Note, not all knives at the show were overpriced in my opinion, there were some makers who had excellent knives at excellent prices and some of them were noted in the thread. What most makers need to learn/understand is that hitting a homerun at the BLADE show once a year does not keep you in business for the long haul. Cultivating a large, happy group of purveyors and regular customers does. A maker's customer list is his most important asset. The more satisifed customers you have to buy your speciality products the more opportunity you will have to sell them.
My thread was not just a bitch session, it was also aimed at Makers who had an unsuccssful show and asked "WHY?".
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You are pretty far off the mark here, In my opinion.
Kohai999
Second Degree Cutter
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heavily borrowing from a May 2005 Blade magazine that I was re-reading this weekend.
There is the value that a maker places on the knife, then a value that the purchaser places on it, then the value that the aftermarket places on that.
They frequently do not line up.
I have a Ralph Turnbull knife that was sold to me for $600. His asking price was $650, but he gave me a deal because I asked for one, and purchased multiple knives at the same time. I will be lucky if I can get $400.00 for it, not that there is anything wrong with it, but any higher than that, and the piece has to be SPECIFICALLY desired.
As a counterpoint, a Ken Onion or Phil Boguszewski knife still can be found from the maker in the sub $1,000 area. Try finding a good one at that price on the aftermarket.
While the Brazilians do great work, it has been my experience that the sale price is less than the original price in the secondary market. The Peck award winner will probably buck that trend.
Best Regards,
STeven Garsson
There is the value that a maker places on the knife, then a value that the purchaser places on it, then the value that the aftermarket places on that.
They frequently do not line up.
I have a Ralph Turnbull knife that was sold to me for $600. His asking price was $650, but he gave me a deal because I asked for one, and purchased multiple knives at the same time. I will be lucky if I can get $400.00 for it, not that there is anything wrong with it, but any higher than that, and the piece has to be SPECIFICALLY desired.
As a counterpoint, a Ken Onion or Phil Boguszewski knife still can be found from the maker in the sub $1,000 area. Try finding a good one at that price on the aftermarket.
While the Brazilians do great work, it has been my experience that the sale price is less than the original price in the secondary market. The Peck award winner will probably buck that trend.
Best Regards,
STeven Garsson
ptgdvc said:
Okay, I ain't the wealthiest collector out there, but I like to think I've got decent taste... And since I've been collecting cutlery seriously for a little over a decade, I've seen an ebb and flow on price increases... And simply watching the internet and purveyor's websites... well, the prices for entry level makers doing essentially ABS style work has skyrocketed in the last couple of years and it's got nothing to do with the cost of gas or steel. Look back at the pricing levels of several of the major purveyors and you can see it quite clearly. Now, some of those makers do offer superb workmanship at a fair price, but I've seen a lot of new makers putting on MS level prices on their first offerings!
What this has meant to me is that I'm afraid I'm limiting any increase in my collection to the work of new makers making what I like at an acceptable price level, and several were mentioned in this thread; or, working with established makers who can produce the quality I want and still reflect real-world pricing... And that's getting tougher every day.
I also admit a lot of what Anthony has pointed out was real evident this year at the OKCA show in Eugene - I've gone there for the past 7 or 8 years straight. In that time, not only have prices skyrocketed, but the selection has dwindled quite a bit.
Ultimately, I believe both the hype we collectors have placed on the custom makers and the level of internet usage and exposure are two of the biggest factors in the rise of prices on custom knives...
Anyway, that's sorta just my $.02's worth...
Now where are pics from the show!!!
Kevin Wilkins
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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Anthony, I appreciate your observations as I have enjoyed your posts here for many years. I am sure you are correct that some Makers at Blade have tried to jack their prices, some even lowering their quality or not taking the time to do the top job customers deserve. This busines term for that is "blowing yourself up" or "shooting yourself in the foot." 
I just wanted to shed some light on the economic forces I - and most other - full time Makers have to deal with, I'm not disputing your observations at Blade 2006 at all. I wasn't there; you were.
When determining prices for products one very important thing to consider is the Maker's output. If a Maker has monthly fixed costs of say $2000 for shop rent, energy, car, insurance, machine costs and so on, that amount has to be divided by the number of knives produced each month. A guy making 200 knives a month adds $10 per knife onto the price of each knife... a guy who makes only 10 knives a month has to add $200 onto each knife. That's where the economy of quantity can break your balls cause most custom Makers don't make near 200 knives a month.
On top of that come the unit (individual knife) specific costs, which you mentioned in your post a page or so back: steel, grip materials, expendables from glue and solder to screws... all the crap that gets banged together and made into the individual knife which goes onto the table for sale.
New product developement, screw ups, sick time and all thses things have to get factored in too.
In the end you have a knife... or a bunch of knives and try and sell them... if consumers find the goods too expensive for what they offer, the knives don't sell and the Maker takes pipe.
I agree with several posters above that the knife market may soon began to see a real shake up in the number of Makers doing it full time.
1. Factory knives are at a historic high for both design and quality... and the quantity of knives produced allows factories to offer considerably lower prices than Custom Makers.
2. Custom knives are a luxury product and I do indeed see many consumers under considerable pressure these days. Come Jan. 2007 the German sales tax rises from 16% to 19% which is the highest tax increase in the history of the German Federal Republic. Politicians here are fighting over what this will mean for the German economy...somehow I don't think I need a politician to tell me what having everything cost 3% more is going to do to people's wallets. Duh.
Still, I think the best thing Makers can do is to make the very finest knife they can make and try and offer the buyer as much value as they can. Raise prices if you have to, but never compromise on quality.
High prices may give potential buyers pause, but a great product can convince them that the price is justified. I think what Anthony saw at Blade were a number of knives that did not at all convince him that the price was justified. That's a shame.
I just wanted to shed some light on the economic forces I - and most other - full time Makers have to deal with, I'm not disputing your observations at Blade 2006 at all. I wasn't there; you were.
When determining prices for products one very important thing to consider is the Maker's output. If a Maker has monthly fixed costs of say $2000 for shop rent, energy, car, insurance, machine costs and so on, that amount has to be divided by the number of knives produced each month. A guy making 200 knives a month adds $10 per knife onto the price of each knife... a guy who makes only 10 knives a month has to add $200 onto each knife. That's where the economy of quantity can break your balls cause most custom Makers don't make near 200 knives a month.
On top of that come the unit (individual knife) specific costs, which you mentioned in your post a page or so back: steel, grip materials, expendables from glue and solder to screws... all the crap that gets banged together and made into the individual knife which goes onto the table for sale.
New product developement, screw ups, sick time and all thses things have to get factored in too.
In the end you have a knife... or a bunch of knives and try and sell them... if consumers find the goods too expensive for what they offer, the knives don't sell and the Maker takes pipe.
I agree with several posters above that the knife market may soon began to see a real shake up in the number of Makers doing it full time.
1. Factory knives are at a historic high for both design and quality... and the quantity of knives produced allows factories to offer considerably lower prices than Custom Makers.
2. Custom knives are a luxury product and I do indeed see many consumers under considerable pressure these days. Come Jan. 2007 the German sales tax rises from 16% to 19% which is the highest tax increase in the history of the German Federal Republic. Politicians here are fighting over what this will mean for the German economy...somehow I don't think I need a politician to tell me what having everything cost 3% more is going to do to people's wallets. Duh.
Still, I think the best thing Makers can do is to make the very finest knife they can make and try and offer the buyer as much value as they can. Raise prices if you have to, but never compromise on quality.
High prices may give potential buyers pause, but a great product can convince them that the price is justified. I think what Anthony saw at Blade were a number of knives that did not at all convince him that the price was justified. That's a shame.
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Kevin-excellent points, well taken.
You are very, very true on factory knives being some stiff competition also.
Look at all the $300+ Striders and Busse's that are eating into custom makers former mainstay area-higher performance.
You are very, very true on factory knives being some stiff competition also.
Look at all the $300+ Striders and Busse's that are eating into custom makers former mainstay area-higher performance.
Thanks for the report Anthony. I couldn't be there this year but I look foward to next year. Every year I have gone, I learned something new, while having fun. With your report, I still learn without having been there. QPR is the name of the game in my book - it's similar to P/E ratio and ROI for stocks.
jokrswylde
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Joss said:
I went to my first Blade with a list of makers whose work I had drooled over and researched, but had never had the chance to handle. I am a folder nut, so I was looking at mainly frame and liner-locks. After many hours and hundreds of miles that I walked around the floor, I had handled a knife, sometimes several, from each of the makers on my list. I left without buying a single custom. Here are a few reasons why:
1. Price--I found that pretty much every custom folder with standard materials (S30v, some kind of micarta or carbon fiber, with a liner or frame-lock) cost $525 dollars. I was fully prepared to spend that on a knife, but It seemed strange to me that I could hold a Terzoula or a ELISHEWITZ in one hand, and a variety of lesser known, lesser experienced makers knives in the other and they would both cost essentially the same. I am not saying they were not as well made as the terzoula, I just could not understand how a guy who has been making knives for a year charges the same as an established legend.
2. Quality--I am not bashing any maker, but of all of the knives I handled, I did not find one knife as smooth or as aesthetically pleasing as a Limited edition sebenza with curly maple wood inlays. Many of the custom folders I handled had problems with blade play, uneven grinds, the bolsters weren't fit flush, etc. Again, my opinion, but the only knife I handled that seemed as perfect as the Sebenza was a Ron Lake lockback.
In the end, I left with a kit knife to tinker with and a couple of stunning Laguioles. To me, just being in a room full of knife knuts was worth going to Blade, but I won't go there to shop in the future. Unless I save up enough to afford that Lake...........
Kevin Wilkins
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
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Anthony, it's a pleasure talkin' at ya! Thanks for your honest impression of the show, I value it very much.
Jokerswylde,
that is one sad tale of woe, thanks to you also for laying your cards honestly on the table.
Funny the 2 Makers you mention ina positive light are 2 guys I most admire and who's work I see as setting the standards for quality and design I try always to attain. Just a couple of points, then I'll step back.
There are few guys in the knife business who know more about what they're doing than Chris Reeve: he combines a solid tool making background with elegant designs and top notch small scale industrial production. The Sebenza is one of the great folders on the market. I own one. Chris is also one heck of a nice guy and a professional in every way.
Ron Lake is a master of his craft and few Makers are even in the same league. I have handled several of Ron's knives and he has visited here in Berlin. What I wouldn't give to spend a few weeks working in his shop with eyes and ears open wide! I hope some day to own one of his folders. My suggestion would be save up your money and buy a Lake folder instead of a 5 or 6 others... you'll never regret it.
Cause the thing about buying an expensive object of inpecable quality is this: you soon forget how much it cost, but every time you pick it up, you love the quality and love owning the product.
Jokerswylde,
that is one sad tale of woe, thanks to you also for laying your cards honestly on the table.
Funny the 2 Makers you mention ina positive light are 2 guys I most admire and who's work I see as setting the standards for quality and design I try always to attain. Just a couple of points, then I'll step back.
There are few guys in the knife business who know more about what they're doing than Chris Reeve: he combines a solid tool making background with elegant designs and top notch small scale industrial production. The Sebenza is one of the great folders on the market. I own one. Chris is also one heck of a nice guy and a professional in every way.
Ron Lake is a master of his craft and few Makers are even in the same league. I have handled several of Ron's knives and he has visited here in Berlin. What I wouldn't give to spend a few weeks working in his shop with eyes and ears open wide! I hope some day to own one of his folders. My suggestion would be save up your money and buy a Lake folder instead of a 5 or 6 others... you'll never regret it.
Cause the thing about buying an expensive object of inpecable quality is this: you soon forget how much it cost, but every time you pick it up, you love the quality and love owning the product.
