The Choil - Why or Why Not

The fact is that I agree with EvilGreg and SaintlyBrees. And, yes, Spyderco does indeed refer to a 50/50 choil, and Sal Glesser states this in the discussion of the Paramilitary 2..."we've also lengthened the blade's tip and added additional surface jimping to both the spine and finger choil." His knowledge with knives and choils far outweighs my own.
However, this is only a matter of rather "individual" definition and does not detract from the fact that a choil has uses for close-up work...and may indeed lend itself to getting stuck in the material if one plunges the blade in too far.
Like most things...there's good and bad. Let us not get stuck in the dictionary vs common usage.
 
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I agree with the late Bob Lovelace... If you got a choil then you done made the blade too long. The knife has already has a handle, use it.
I can't see how barely an inch worth of choil makes for better control. Shorten the blade and change the grip on the handle.
 
IMO choil's eat up good edge real estate... not that I don't own several with choil's. My opinion is that if you need a choil for detailed work then you need a smaller blade for the task.
 
well for the purposes of a rational discussion it helps to run under a certain assumption. so what i meant by choil is "an area directly under the cutting surface that allows the finger to sit just under and against the cutting surface":
ESEE-3-Grip.jpg
 
Binalith said:
well for the purposes of a rational discussion it helps to run under a certain assumption. so what i meant by choil is "an area directly under the cutting surface that allows the finger to sit just under and against the cutting surface":
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EXACTLY. And by that definition, all of those Spyderco knives do NOT feature a choil notch, regardless of Sal Glesser's confusion over the term.

"Choil" does not mean "groove" of any sort, and Sal Glesser (as nice of a man as he may be) did not invent the term, it has been around for centuries (long before the internet helped spread confusion on mass scale) and centuries of knife and sword makers and users (including many of those still alive today) reject both the assertion that Sal Glesser is right on this AND reject the assertion that an internet search is sufficient proof of concept. If I search "aliens exist" and get numerous hits asserting it, does that make it so? Did Al Gore invent the internet? Neither did Sal invent the term. But for the sake of argument, feel free to google "definition choil" or "etymology choil". In both cases, you will read that the choil is the start (or end) of the cutting edge, i.e. it is within the bevel with no guard between the groove (if there is one) and the cutting edge itself, which is NOT the case with the Spyderco knives indicated above.

(e.g. http://www.jayfisher.com/Knife_Anatomy_Parts_Names_Definitions.htm)

Whether you believe ME or not isn't important, but please take the time to research a little more thoroughly before immediately asserting that I am wrong (directed to those to whom the act applies).

In any case, I am a fan of the choil on most knives since so many feature a large ricasso or guard that keeps my fingers from getting as close to the edge as I'd like. If the handle comes up high enough, or if the blade extends forward of the handle like on a kitchen knife, that is my preference.
 
chiral.grolim said:
EXACTLY. And by that definition, all of those Spyderco knives do NOT feature a choil notch, regardless of Sal Glesser's confusion over the term.

"Choil" does not mean "groove" of any sort, and Sal Glesser (as nice of a man as he may be) did not invent the term, it has been around for centuries (long before the internet helped spread confusion on mass scale) and centuries of knife and sword makers and users (including many of those still alive today) reject both the assertion that Sal Glesser is right on this AND reject the assertion that an internet search is sufficient proof of concept. If I search "aliens exist" and get numerous hits asserting it, does that make it so? Did Al Gore invent the internet? Neither did Sal invent the term. But for the sake of argument, feel free to google "definition choil" or "etymology choil". In both cases, you will read that the choil is the start (or end) of the cutting edge, i.e. it is within the bevel with no guard between the groove (if there is one) and the cutting edge itself, which is NOT the case with the Spyderco knives indicated above.

(e.g. http://www.jayfisher.com/Knife_Anatomy_Parts_Names_Definitions.htm)

Whether you believe ME or not isn't important, but please take the time to research a little more thoroughly before immediately asserting that I am wrong (directed to those to whom the act applies).

In any case, I am a fan of the choil on most knives since so many feature a large ricasso or guard that keeps my fingers from getting as close to the edge as I'd like. If the handle comes up high enough, or if the blade extends forward of the handle like on a kitchen knife, that is my preference.
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You are still completely wrong. Even if the meaning is a new one, the mere fact that it's established to the point the meaning is commonly understood by others means it's real and just as valid as any other hunk of language. Etymology is entertaining history, but languages evolve.

If you want to look up a definition, try looking up neologism. Again, I've already proven earlier in the thread that when I say "finger choil" the people I'm communicating with understand what I mean. Hell, for that matter you know what I mean. Case closed. :P
 
I really like a choil on big blades but can live with out them on 5 inch and below fixed blades.
 
Not that we need another chime in, but I (as a new knife enthusiast) do prefer a choil. But mostly because I am a woodworker, I have been building furniture with hand tools (Lie Nielsen chisels & vintage Stanley planes, etc) for 5 or so years now so I really see my blades as tools to be used on wood... doing things like notches for traps and what not while camping, and while I do not ALWAYS see the point in one, I definitely cannot find a good reason as to why it would hurt a blades geometry or usability, but it may ruin the looks for some people and so for that crowd, I totally understand, a blade has to appeal to your eyes to be a favorite! By the way this is like my 1st post in the forums (had one other in the exchange) so Id like to say hello to all the other 'blade'shippers out there, 'tis the slice of life ;)
 
In general, I prefer no choil. The handle should allow the hand to be close to the edge for increased control which then negates the need for a choil. I don't need much of a guard if at all like in a Swiss Army Knife. Having a choil is not a deal killer though and my opinions on knives changes over time.
 
I think the chroil on fixed blades is a very classic design. I like the Blackjack classic fixed blades (and Randall's) with their chroil and in fact it is one of the reasons I might choose to carry my Blackjack 125 out in the woods as it adds flexibility in terms of use.
 
evilgreg said:
You are still completely wrong. Even if the meaning is a new one, the mere fact that it's established to the point the meaning is commonly understood by others means it's real and just as valid as any other hunk of language. Etymology is entertaining history, but languages evolve.

If you want to look up a definition, try looking up neologism. Again, I've already proven earlier in the thread that when I say "finger choil" the people I'm communicating with understand what I mean. Hell, for that matter you know what I mean. Case closed. :P
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So that fact that i am aware of your mis-use of the term (or delusion of eloquence) is proof positive of your definition? :confused:
This particular meaning, i.e. choil = groove, is NOT so commonly understood as you may think. Indeed, describe that groove below the guard of a Spyderco knife in the knifemaker's subforum and you may be met with some confusion. And sharing in the delusion does not make it real.

Neologism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neologism
A neologism (/niːˈɒlədʒɪzəm/; from Greek νέο- (néo-), meaning "new", and λόγος (lógos), meaning "speech, utterance") is the name for a newly coined term, word, or phrase, that may be in the process of entering common use, but has not yet been accepted into mainstream language. Neologisms are often directly attributable to a specific person, publication, period, or event. Νεολεξία (neolexίa, Greek: a "new word", or the act of creating a new word) is a synonym for it. The term neologism is first attested in English in 1772, borrowed from French néologisme (1734).

A neologism may also be a new usage of an existing word, sometimes called a semantic extension. This distinct from a person's idiolect: their unique patterns of vocabulary, grammar, and pronunciation.

In psychiatry, the term neologism is used to describe the use of words that have meaning only to the person who uses them, independent of their common meaning. This tendency is considered normal in children, but in adults can be a symptom of psychopathy or a thought disorder (indicative of a psychotic mental illness, such as schizophrenia). People with autism also may create neologisms. Additionally, use of neologisms may be related to aphasia acquired after brain damage resulting from a stroke or head injury.
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Should the term be added to the "misuse" list? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:List_of_commonly_misused_English_words


For everyone, an older thread on choils: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/717242-The-Choil-Ricasso-thing
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/choil
 
chiral.grolim said:
So that fact that i am aware of your mis-use of the term (or delusion of eloquence) is proof positive of your definition? :confused:
This particular meaning, i.e. choil = groove, is NOT so commonly understood as you may think. Indeed, describe that groove below the guard of a Spyderco knife in the knifemaker's subforum and you may be met with some confusion. And sharing in the delusion does not make it real.

Neologism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neologism


Should the term be added to the "misuse" list? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:List_of_commonly_misused_English_words


For everyone, an older thread on choils: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/717242-The-Choil-Ricasso-thing
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/choil
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You need to give up man. Although you may be technically right, you are still wrong about how to interpret words and what people mean.

If you want to add a bunch of geeky links, heres one for you to read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_change
 
Back on topic, I prefer my blades without choils. Give me as much cutting area as possible, por favor.
 
Semantics aside, I think it's pretty simple.

Why? More handle
Why not? More blade
 
My XM-18s have them. None of my other knives have them.
Not a deal breaker to me if they have them or not.
 
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