The Combat Smatchet?

All,
I didn't mean to start a big PC controversy here. It's important to note that the demise of the Smatchet as stated here is how I see it from what I know of the situation. I'll definatly find out from Chuck more of what his perspective was. I'll also post more info about quantities made etc...
I personally love big knives and agree about the camptool perspective. My camping bag has a M-9 in it for the primary camp-knife. Larry makes a good point when he says:"As a career law enforcement officer with 24+ years of experience I have yet to respond to a person stabbed with anything much more than a cheap kitchen knife, screwdriver, ice pick or have ever encountered a mass conspiracy of smatchet wielding crazed knife owners."
We all know that the misuse is in the user not the product especially with knives and guns. Just the same I appreciate working for a company that can draw a moral line in the sand of dollars, even if not all of us agree. I think that is what America is about.

Jeff




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Jeff "Without data it's just another opinion" Hubbard
JeffH@buckknives.com
www.buckknives.com
 
Jeff,you have obviously not been through bayonet training.There is a big sign at the entrance that says"The spirit of the bayonet is to kill!"There are only two kinds of bayonet fighters,the quick and the dead.It is a pass fail system the only badge awarded is expert.Lets get real here.Sure we use bayonets for utility because they are the means at hand.(Remember the tactical truth:You use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of death, wounds and destruction upon the enemy in the minimum amount of time.), but,that is not their stated purpose.In 1964 not to many people qualified on the bayonet course.Agressiveness was the key trait.And you can stand here with a straight face and tell me that your bayonet manufacture is christian passivism?I`ve heard of hypocracy but,occassionaly I hear a new one. I do not wish to insult you but, I suggest that you rethink your position into one that is tenable.I don`t think that you can.

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I have a lot of Buck knives and I have a soft place in my heart for the old man but,gee whizz!

[This message has been edited by ghostsix (edited 08 April 1999).]

[This message has been edited by ghostsix (edited 08 April 1999).]
 
I don't know Ghost, From the pictures I've seen of the M-9 its really not much of a bayonet at all. IMO the only real connection between the 2 is that they can both be attached to your gun. But then again, in modern times you don't really see very much bayonet charges in the army. So I guess a camp knive that doubles as a bayonet is going to be better than a bayonet that also has to double as a feild knife.

Sincerely,
Adam

[This message has been edited by Adamantium (edited 08 April 1999).]
 
How about this for a possible solution. Buck produce a limited quanity of smatchet's only to be sold thru the BladeForum's.com store to registered users. Omit the bayonet lug to prohibit users from one last charge. Only a thought.

sarge
 
Ghostsix, All,
You are right, I have never been through bayonet training (I was in the Air Force, and we let the officers go out and get shot at, while we fixed planes on the flightline). I just don't think that in this day and age of modern warfare the Bayonet is a primary killing weapon. Lets face it we don't really get that close anymore. Sure I believe that the training is still around and quite useful, but how often will you be in bayonet combat? I'm not sure which position you want me to rethink. We all have our own paradigms built on our life experiences, and admittedly I don't have the benifit of your training, but I can't see how the bayonets primary use is still killing...

So educate me not assasinate me. BTW I agree that we disagree and that is OK by me.

Jeff "don't shoot the messenger" Hubbard (use a Bayonet)

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Jeff "Without data it's just another opinion" Hubbard
JeffH@buckknives.com
www.buckknives.com
 
So after all of these years we should abandon Buck because they lack a clue?





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I`m old now but,we used to get up close and personal with edeged weapons.I won`t be buying another Buck until I hear a company philosophy that I like.And I don`t like what I`m hearing.
Lets here it for the spirit of the bayonet,hoorah!You gutless wonders.
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[This message has been edited by ghostsix (edited 08 April 1999).]
 
All of you people that think that the bayonet is obsolete have never been overrun. Chukie would cringe at the carnage.

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Actually, the last use of the bayonet in any quantity was in the Falklands when the Brits took an Argie position at bayonet point. So, it was not so long ago.

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Walk in the Light,
Hugh
 
I found this thread late, but can add a bit since I have a copy of the original requirements document the U.S. Army Infantry School wrote describing their need for a new bayonet (dtd 1985). In it they describe the priority of design function as (1) bayonet, (2) Combat Knife--I think they meant fighting knife because of #3, (3) Field craft knife, (4) wire cutter, (5) limited saw capability, (6) mine probe (anti-metallic), and (6) Civil disturbance deterrent.

It was pretty plain in the beginning that the first two important uses of the new bayonet were anti-personnel. From my military experience, though, when we try to make one tool do too much, it doesn't do anything acceptably. The M9 isn't that good a bayonet--Ghostsix, what do you think here? I would rather carry the old M7 bayonet and a good field knife--probably save some weight also.
 
I don't even understand the position that ghostsix is taking. From what I read from Jeff, three of the big knives were discontinued because of lagging sales. Doesn't matter whether Buck is a Christian, Hindu, Muslim, etc. If it wasn't selling, then it is a good business decision to make something that sells better. Oh well, whatever. I think I've got all the Bucks I need for today (until the Master Series or equivalent comes out). And only one is big, the Buck Special. 'Course, I'm not trained in any knife fighting, but that Special sure can do a number on some limbs. Hmmmm, I think I've started rambling....
 
Outlaw,the M-9 is not a Randall#1 but you can attatch it to a rifle.It doesn`t have bad balance for a fighting knife.As a Quick reaction force"Mike"commander,I saw a PLT.that had fought to the death with fixed bayonets.One trooper had an enemey in a hug with his knife buried in his"the enemies"chest.There were no survivors.Several nearby bodies were slashed and stabbed.Cold steel is not obsolete. I never used a Buck in combat so,Chuck can sleep well.

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All,
I finally caught up with Chuck and asked him about the Smatchet and it's demise and this is the Reason why it was stopped...

While it was true that Chuck didn't like the look, that was NOT the reason we did not continue producing them.
Bottom Line... The double Edge was EXTREMLY dangerous to edge and expensive to machine and finish.... Operators were running the risk of hanging the blade up in the sharpening wheel with the second edge facing their chests. After the first run, we evaluated the truse costs / risks. When it came time to do more, we needed to raise the cost to match the costs/risk and Applegates camp declined.

Chuck also said that he would be willing to run more if we were approached about it, and all the detail fell into place.
Jeff


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Jeff "Without data it's just another opinion" Hubbard
JeffH@buckknives.com
www.buckknives.com
Watch for Pete's Custom Knife Shoppe on www.buckknives.com

 
Fair enough by me, too. Would guess, though, having done machining myself, that the old run was done on non- cad/cam machinery. Don't know that Buck has that now, but if some kind of protection for the workers couldn't be devised, cad/cam should allow machining to sufficient edge thinness that you could sell it with a "presentation edge" ala Wilkinson which is dull so the recipient doesn't cut himself. ( Do agree with LeRoy Thompson's observation that anybody presented a Fairbarn -Sykes who can't be trusted with a sharp edge doesn't deserve one. ) Let the buyer/collector put the final edge on it, or lock the blade in a vice and bring the grinder to it instead. But then I don't make knives so I could be full of hot air on this.

So what would the estimated price be, and how many would you need to make to do a run?
 
I'd buy one if a limited production run was done. But what are our steel choises? IMO something along the lines of a high carbon steel would be best, then just coat it with your standard black coating. Is something like that possible while still keeping the price down?

Sincerely,
Adam
 
Jeff, I'm glad tha answer is that there were difficulties and not that it is a "killing" weapon for reasons of discontinuance, since the bayonet, as Ghost mentioned, has it's use meant primarily for one thing, and that is killing. All other uses are secondary. I, for one, would like to see the smatchet come back in it's original form and a better steel, like say 440B or C or better. This would be nice. You are obviously doing limited runs with the master series, so it does not seem to be a far off idea.
 
I too have my doubts.I just wanted to declare peace.The old Gen.has a top guard;looks like fighting to me.It predates Chuck or Jeff.

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All,
1st I want to apoligize for the mis-information. I WILL double check things from now on...
2nd,
We are not looking at doing anymore Smatchets, unless we are approached by the Applegate camp. We would also have no control on the specfication on steel and such... Those issues need to be taken up with whoever holds the design rights. Currently I don't know who that is...

Jeff

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Jeff "Without data it's just another opinion" Hubbard
JeffH@buckknives.com
www.buckknives.com
Watch for Pete's Custom Knife Shoppe on www.buckknives.com

 
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