The current 'Tactical Custom Folder' market = HOTTEST ever?

Lorien said:
I said this; no doubt several forums on the web work effiectively in hyping and driving sales to makers who work those forums.

What I meant was this; no doubt several forums on the web work effectively in hyping and driving sales to makers and dealers who work those forums.
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Lorien, while I agree, it's also worth pointing out that no one is forcing those people to buy. To the point of the thread is that the tactical folder market is HOT HOT HOT and because of that people cannot get enough of the newest knives!
 
I will start my statement with this: I have nearly zero interest in making or buying folders, I just rarely have a need or want for them. I'm not stepping in to bash nor praise anyone, just tossing in my 2 cents.

Are certain knives overpriced for what you get? Maybe, maybe not- that decision is up to the buyer. Like any industry in life, supply and demand. Yes, having a name established helps the maker earn more money. In most cases, they have earned what they have grown to be.

I won't for a minute throw a tantrum about a maker earning too much for one of his knives. There are makers all over this forum busting their ass 12+ hours a day, 7 days a week making knives for the equivalent of a minimum wage job. Most of the "overpriced" makers started out this way. Making enough to live comfortably and bringing in enough money to support future projects is a benchmark of success, no matter your chosen craft.

Can makers gain exposure, sales and fame due to having friends in the industry? You bet. That's life, show me one industry where those politics do not exist.

If you don't like the pricing, move on. It's simple. I want a lot of things, doesn't mean I'm bashing the companies because I can't afford it.

Advertising your work on the forums? EVERY post a knifemaker makes is an advertisement, you are literally an ambassador for your brand in your words and actions. Constantly.

As for the tactical market, of course it is hot, and not just with knives(guns, prepping, clothing, etc.). I personally find it funny when folks market "combat military knives" or whatever, and in many cases the maker has no experience in those fields and hasn't even trained blades with anyone credible. Again, it's not anything that irks me, though. Those things sort themselves out in time.

But, at the end of the day- folks are trying to make a living. Everyone wants their piece of the pie, and knifemakers are entrepreneurs like everyone else. Take an opportunity and seize it, or don't.

You don't have to be a good knifemaker to succeed, only audacity and business skill.

Oh, and in some cases, even BAD attention is still attention :)
 
As I type this...

18 fixed bowie/blade posts
7 folder posts

When I emailed a fellow forum member several days ago it was 21/3 fixed to folders

I used to post here a lot more in the past, largely due to the fact that I enjoy folders more than fixed blades...it actually got to the point that I thought to myself "One more ABS damascus and stag bowie and I'm gonna........" (I still read a lot, just not much to say):cool:

The point being; is this forum intentionally trying to drive the market in a certain direction, or is it just the preference of some of the more prolific members of the (sub)forum? Do other forums look at C&H BF as an instrument of specific makers and styles or preferences?

Are tactical titanium folders prefered at one place, while highly crafted fixed blades are prefered at another? Yes.

Is there drift and crossover, with members belonging to both? Yes

For many people are the new, "tactical" (ouch), titanium folders with clean lines, shotgun-chambering type opening and the feeling of indestructibility both new and different from what has been seen....one could argue refreshingly different in it's own way and for what it is (besides the obscene prices)? Yes indeed


Beside all that...I believe essentially the same back and for has been heard from religious/political/geographic groups for quite a while


JMHO YMMV


-Michael
 
Lorien: I'm sure liking your observations and post. That took time in though to clarify and construct, yet I am not apologizing for the challenge. You gave some welcome clarity to a hasty comment.

Counterpoint: I would still say there has been A LOT of influence and emphasis growing the tactical market here as well as other niche forums. Witness Gus Cecchini, RJ Martin and Mike Snody as examples. (So wishing RJ and MS would return. That they are occupied elsewhere disappoints me.)

You're right, other areas do it even more, however, we can't minimize BF's or these maker's efforts on C&HK.

Joe Watson: Such clarity is refreshing. I wish you'd post here more often. Great insights.

Michael: Good points. Thank you.
 
I agree, the tactical folder market is hot as ever and in my opinion we have to thank makers like Mike Snody that helped to pave the way. Mike has just released a new video that touches on this subject in the sense that Mike has fully switched over to building folders again and thankfully so. Great topic Coop, keep up the great work with your incredible photography, your pics still blow me away.

[video=youtube_share;vkUXjzsIrn8]http://youtu.be/vkUXjzsIrn8[/video]

Here's another video Mike just released from his FB page:

Snody Video Response on FB responding directly to this thread.
 
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Thanks, Mike and Earl.
You're good guys.
rolf
Yes... come back more often, Joe Watson.
 
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Lorien said:
if this particular forum ever becomes one where the focus is on SELLING knives, which is happening a little more and more all the time, at the expense of a more global exposure to custom knives, I'll lose interest. With that focus on selling, comes the hype and attaboy atmosphere that I personally tend to avoid.

Fortunately, the C&H forum on Bladeforums is very global in its content. There is a great diversity of work available here to be exposed to, that might be more greatly diminished as hype and the shills who perpetuate hype squeeze their way in.

Many makers here post their own work immediately after they finish making it. This gives an amazing 'real time' feel that I think is unparalled in cutlery forums. In some of the other forums, it's the customers and dealers who post knives they've purchased which take up the bandwidth, with a few exceptions where makers post their work and their fawning supporters spew forth accolades only. There is a big difference between the secondary market and the primary market- maybe something like a 50% difference if you get my meaning.

This forum is less about driving demand and getting top dollar for the newest maker a guy's discovered, than it is about the art and craft of knife making, design, and collecting. The best indicator that I can think of is in the title of this thread. What has this forum done to make the current tactical custom folder market the hottest ever? Not much, compared to other places. This forum generally has never been, at least from how I've seen things, about making any particular market 'hot'. It has however served to expose a great many people to the fact that custom knives are a thing, and has probably funneled new collectors into these 'hot' markets in a more oblique sense.

An individual maker, such as the men you've mentioned, ( Hanson, Branson, Bump, Doyle, Long, Wheeler, Andrews ) is more likely to post his own work on this subforum. Sure, collectors post their new acquisitions, but the thing that makes this place special is the connection to the craftsmen, and their distinguished patrons. A place where you are as free to critique their work as you are to praise it. That simply doesn't exist in the same way in other places, and we've certainly talked this to death in the past.

This thread, I think, shows that this forum is open to the 'hot' markets, while at the same time shows what is different about it. I can't really explain it much better than that, so I hope you see my point; http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/733966-Stan-Wilson-Advisor-III-a-making-of-thread
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You make it sound like there is something undesirable about a collector posting here a knife they acquired, and that the only "worthy" posts of new knives are from makers (or as is often the case here, their "representative") of something they just made. This is an attitude that I know keeps me from posting many of my knives here, and probably a lot of other folks - something which it seems perhaps you are grateful for not wasting the bandwidth. When I do post pictures of any of my knives here, it is sure as hell not out of anything to do with any secondary market. I have never (so far) sold a single knife I have purchased - but I do see some of these makers' posts (which are supposedly so preferred) of their knives here being followed very quickly by a "for sale" post of that knive in the sales forums. As a collector, when I post a knife here it is simply to share something I like and think other collectors might like to see. I think other collectors do the same , , , but I also think that seems to be less the case as time goes by.

But I am understanding better why there seems to be less and less of that here. There are some really top collectors who I know have amazing collections of knives that are drool-worthy who never post here although some are well aware of the place and lurk. I know that I would LOVE to see their knives here, because what I enjoy is seeing beautiful knives, wonderfully made knives, and historically significant knives and descriptions of them or stories about them, and I could care less who posts that. I can't say for sure why they do not post here, but maybe some of them just do not think it is worth that kind of negativity when a collector posts a knife instead of a maker. All I know is that it keeps me from wanting to post any of my knives here, although I still do occasionally. I am in this for fun, not profit and sure as hell not for negativity. And it seems to me that this place is getting a higher and higher percentage of knives posted from a relatively smaller and narrower group of the same makers or their representatives . . . with comments by the usual suspects. Not sure how that is different from the fanboy attittude you decry. But maybe that is what folks here want: a clubhouse of a few members devoted to their few favorite makers.

And as for makers, I also appreciate the posts from the top notch makers who DO post here, many of whom have been named - especially when they go to the trouble of doing a WIP. But there are sooooooo many other top - REALLY top - makers of all kinds of custom knives who NEVER post here and whose knives we rarely see here. Personally, I would rather figure out how to encourage them to share their work here for us to see, than to engage in a circle jerk about who should be posting here and for what reasons. But probably that is a minority view here, so carry on.
 
UltraReef said:
I agree, the tactical folder market is hot as ever and in my opinion we have to thank makers like Mike Snody that helped to pave the way. Mike has just released a new video that touches on this subject in the sense that Mike has fully switched over the building folders again and thankfully so. Great topic Coop, keep up the great work with your incredible photography, your pics still blow me away.

[video=youtube_share;vkUXjzsIrn8]http://youtu.be/vkUXjzsIrn8[/video]

Here's another video Mike just released from his FB page:

Snody Video Response on FB responding directly to this thread.
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Mike wishing you much success in the new endeavor and in all things buddy

Merry X Mas
 
Ken, dude you got me totally wrong. What I'm trying to say is hard to convey. I don't want to go on describing the way that other forums function, just to try and get a handle on why this one is different and why that difference is worth celebrating. Sometimes things come out backward and that's why it's good we call each other on it, as it deepens the discussion.

This forum would be even better if the regular collectors here posted their collections, I really like what Dave Ellis does, it's something I look forward to every week. There is a lot of history and a lot of instruction available in these viewings.
To me, this forum is like going to a museum or art gallery. Other forums don't have that feel. You posting knives you have or have had in your collection contributes to that.

Direct interaction with the artists, who are treated like people and not some celebrity semblance of one, is to me more important than the quality I just mentioned, but that makes the previous no less significant in defining the value of C&H. We all are here for the combination of things we value, and that combination if probably different for everyone.

To Coop- I expect no apology. I'd have preferred you not saying I was a hypocrite, but only because it is true :) We all are in so many ways, but only in the presence of friends can we be called out on it and for it to be all good.

WRT peeps of high regard being catapulted by this forum- at least in part- that's part of the point I was trying to make. This forum is a genesis platform, due in large part to the pool of immediately 'uninvested' participants. This is a kind of 'long term gain' crowd. Self regulating, critical, studied- experienced enough to not only resist the everchanging whims of a marketplace, but to also agitate those whims and excercise a quiet influence over the scene.

I'm sorry if that sounded elitist. Anyway, time to go home. Hopefully that all came out right.
 
This is my favorite section of BF to be honest. I think it's a pretty good mix of makers and collectors, intelligent people and relatively thoughtful (and respectful) discussions on topics.

The same can't be said for other places on THIS SITE, let alone other sites...

EDIT: That being said, I do think this forum gets an unfair wrap from people who think it is just a bunch of ABS fixed blades. And while there is a bit of that, I think it has been balancing out quite nicely in the last year or so. Either that or my tastes are just changing haha.
 
All this talk about "Tactical" I guess I am old enough to remember when the Bowie Knife and Randall Model 1 would have been the "Tactical Knives" back in the day.
 
Neil, I have to partially disagree with your post. I think the "new" collectors don't care because they've fallen into the trappings of chasing the hot builder and they have no concern or clue as to build quality. The "tactical" craze has led to the acceptance of poorer built knives. Many of us still care about how the knife is produced. I have some all of my custom knives that we built via CNC.

Neil Blackwood said:
I don't think that a good majority of buyers care how the knife is produced. A "bad assed" look is most important, then fit and finish, then materials used. I prep everything on a CNC and make all my round parts in house on a manual CNC. I put a lot of time in hand finishing and do everything I can so my knives don't look like there were spit out on a CNC or mass produced. I only finish about 2 folders a week no matter how I make them, LOL!!!
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MWALEX3012 said:
Neil, I have to partially disagree with your post. I think the "new" collectors don't care because they've fallen into the trappings of chasing the hot builder and they have no concern or clue as to build quality. The "tactical" craze has led to the acceptance of poorer built knives. Many of us still care about how the knife is produced. I have some all of my custom knives that we built via CNC.
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I think what has lead to the acceptance of 'poorer built' knives is that you have certain people who say that a knife is perfectly built when it clearly isn't and it's usually because they are chummy or want to be chummy with the maker. Then you have buyers think certain people are an authority on the matter and that the knife must be perfect.

One of the things I say a lot in general when people complain about a Sebenzas pricing because their Spyderco is just as well put together, 'I don't think the people who say that are well educated and detail oriented enough to be able to see the differences'.

I think the same thing applies with a lot of the tactical custom buyers. If you have a knife that opens smoothly and has no blade play, all of a sudden it's PERFECT.
 
Unrelated sorry- Lorien I think we should start a show your collections thread and some how make it last. I agreed with your statement about that. More people need to just see the beauty and the fact that regular people are enjoying and showing it off. We wanna attract people first and formost. I may try another thread soon or you can if you want. I miss all the picture threads from the past. My style is to hang back and speak up more about collections and show pictures. I don;t get as involved with the politics. I just want to SEE knives!
 
Scurvy092 said:
I think what has lead to the acceptance of 'poorer built' knives is that you have certain people who say that a knife is perfectly built when it clearly isn't and it's usually because they are chummy or want to be chummy with the maker. Then you have buyers think certain people are an authority on the matter and that the knife must be perfect.

One of the things I say a lot in general when people complain about a Sebenzas pricing because their Spyderco is just as well put together, 'I don't think the people who say that are well educated and detail oriented enough to be able to see the differences'.

I think the same thing applies with a lot of the tactical custom buyers. If you have a knife that opens smoothly and has no blade play, all of a sudden it's PERFECT.
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In regards to the bold text, now THAT is an elitist statement.

Not well educated and detail oriented enough? really? I don't complain about Sebenza's being priced as they are, I do have a peeve about Sebenza owners not being able to come to grips that many people don't find it to be as perfect as they think it is. None of my other knives probably have the same construction tolerances that my Sebenza has, but the fact of the matter is, the Sebenza just failed to impress me enough to warrant the price I bought it for. The blade has no deflection while closed, it's got smooth action, and that's great. Major thumbs up on the tolerances. It however, is very far from being my best cutter/slicer, far from being my most comfortable and ergonomic folder, and I definitely have more than a few knives priced well below that outperform it handily.

Right after I bought my Sebenza a couple of years ago, I went to my first big knife show. There, I handled all the high-end folders at TNK's table which included customs, midtechs, productions, and I was prepared to scoff at the other knives and be blown away by how smooth my Seb was going to be compared to everything there. That never happened. I handled Hinderers, Striders, Fellhoelters, Southards, Emersons, ZTs, you name it. I was blown away by how much smoother many other knives were, and that left me disappointed and forever disillusioned. I left with a Horton folder (one of the first ones he ever made), and an Emerson CQC-10 (best ergos out of every Emerson I handled). Neither have the same construction tolerances as my Sebenza, but despite that, they have a smoother action and I definitely use them a whole lot more. I think I'm pretty well-educated and detail oriented when it comes to knives. Maybe I just don't stress the same details that you do.
 
jonathan brand said:
Unrelated sorry- Lorien I think we should start a show your collections thread and some how make it last. I agreed with your statement about that. More people need to just see the beauty and the fact that regular people are enjoying and showing it off. We wanna attract people first and formost. I may try another thread soon or you can if you want. I miss all the picture threads from the past. My style is to hang back and speak up more about collections and show pictures. I don;t get as involved with the politics. I just want to SEE knives!
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Classics from our collections - Show them!

It's a welcome (again) idea. Please do.

Coop
 
I look forward to reading through this thread - some very thoughtful discussion happening here.

For now, a complete non sequitur: Every time I have clicked on a Snody video I have been thoroughly entertained and well informed. I dig that dude and I dig his knives.
 
gooeytek said:
In regards to the bold text, now THAT is an elitist statement.

Not well educated and detail oriented enough? really? I don't complain about Sebenza's being priced as they are, I do have a peeve about Sebenza owners not being able to come to grips that many people don't find it to be as perfect as they think it is. None of my other knives probably have the same construction tolerances that my Sebenza has, but the fact of the matter is, the Sebenza just failed to impress me enough to warrant the price I bought it for. The blade has no deflection while closed, it's got smooth action, and that's great. Major thumbs up on the tolerances. It however, is very far from being my best cutter/slicer, far from being my most comfortable and ergonomic folder, and I definitely have more than a few knives priced well below that outperform it handily.

Right after I bought my Sebenza a couple of years ago, I went to my first big knife show. There, I handled all the high-end folders at TNK's table which included customs, midtechs, productions, and I was prepared to scoff at the other knives and be blown away by how smooth my Seb was going to be compared to everything there. That never happened. I handled Hinderers, Striders, Fellhoelters, Southards, Emersons, ZTs, you name it. I was blown away by how much smoother many other knives were, and that left me disappointed and forever disillusioned. I left with a Horton folder (one of the first ones he ever made), and an Emerson CQC-10 (best ergos out of every Emerson I handled). Neither have the same construction tolerances as my Sebenza, but despite that, they have a smoother action and I definitely use them a whole lot more. I think I'm pretty well-educated and detail oriented when it comes to knives. Maybe I just don't stress the same details that you do.
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My comment has nothing to do with formal education. I just meant people don't know what to look for. As in they haven't been educated about various differences in fit and finish.

Also, I would expect half to all of those makers you listed to be on point because they all play in the same price pool.

I'm talking about someone who looks at a 120 knife and can't tell the differences between it and a sebenza.

You even acknowledge yourself that your knives aren't built to the same tolerances as the sebenza so I don't understand the hate.

A sebenza is not a perfect knife, I don't even own one. But I can sit down with someone's and someone's spyderco paramilitary 2 and explain why they are not equal in fit and finish.

Sebenza is just a stand in for any expensive knife that people talk about a lot.
 
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I don't know anything, really, about custom knives. If you start discussing the fine points of damascus, brut de forge, fine wood grain, grades of stag, etc. I'm gonna be lost in a heartbeat which means I simply won't lay down the money for that style of custom knife because I don't have the tools to evaluate it. But I've owned many modern folders. I know which steels seem to perform better for me, which modern handle materials offer a good grip without causing hotspots, how ergonomics and different grinds work to help me with cutting, etc. Basically, I already have a skillset to help me evaluate a tactical folder, custom or not, whereas with an ABS bowie I'm kinda stuck going, "Wow. That looks pretty. And expensive."

I think that may be a part of what drives the tactical market. As much as I admire the gorgeous damascus and stag knives that many of the makers post here, I would have no clue if they ripped me off once I had it in hand because those knives are so dissimilar from what I own. I don't have data to back it up, but I suspect a significant segment of the tactical custom market is like me, and is just buying what they know.
 
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