The Famous Tom Krein Regrind.

[Halfneck]

I wonder how much longer he will continue to do these regrinds.

No idea, but there is talk he might stop taking orders on making knives so that he can concentrate on his current load & projects. I assume by Projects he is talking about K9 Knives with Dan Koster.

 

[Morrow]

I sent in my endura wave to him less than a week ago, and it's already being shipped back

My question is, how does one go about sharpening once you get your TKRG edge dull? Will I be able to just swipe it across my 30degree sharpmaker, or will I need something even steeper/ more elaborate?

Thanks
Mark

My Sebenaza was ground to .010 with a 30 degree inclusive bevel. I specifically asked for the 30 degree bevel (for the Sharp Maker). You'll have to ask Tom to be sure but I'll bet your endura will come back with something similar.

 

[Cougar Allen]

Let’s see if we can find the right forum …

 

[gunmike1]

All of mine came back under 30 inclusive. My Krein Ultimate Caper came in under 10 per side, but I would say most of my regrinds came back between 10-13 per side. Since the bevels are so small they take no time to rebevel if you need to, even on ZDP 189.

Mike

 

[John Frankl]

The real question is what you personally use a folder for. Is it to cut, or as a screwdriver/prybar. If you are cutting with it, Tom is your man. If you want something else, maybe you should get a Swiss army knife or Leatherman.

John

 

[Morrow]

The real question is what you personally use a folder for. Is it to cut, or as a screwdriver/prybar. If you are cutting with it, Tom is your man. If you want something else, maybe you should get a Swiss army knife or Leatherman.

John

A fine point....I wanted a scalpel....now I have one.

 

[offsetlover]

A fine point....I wanted a scalpel....now I have one.

that is exactly what I want with my Lahar. a scalpel. morrow: what are the angles on your seb at?

 

[Morrow]

that is exactly what I want with my Lahar. a scalpel. morrow: what are the angles on your seb at?

It is ground to .010 with the edge set to 30 degrees inclusive.

 

[Thomas W]

I think people are so used to overbuilt knife edges that they get a bit wary of a knife with true cutting oriented geometry, but a .010" edge is plenty strong for most people's EDC needs.

If you like to really beat up a knife then a Tom Krein regrind may not be for you

Not sure if these two statements contradict each other, but never have had much success with these type threads.
I'm also unsure of where Tom usually brings a blade down to with his re-grinds. I'd imagine it's on a case by case basis, but reholli brings up valid points and concerns, and you seem to validate them. Hopefully Tom can chime in with his thoughts and experience as well.

If what you say is true gunmike, and a .010" edge is indeed plenty strong for most, it makes you wonder why it isn't regularly offered from both a production standpoint (I'm not aware of any factory offering that geometry), and/or custom makers themselves.

If you get stupid with a .005" edged regrind...big chips

It's good to read that there are and will be limitations with this type of geometry.

Now I guess I was unsure if you meant that taking piece of steel down to .005" was stupid, or cutting something heavy with an edge that thin was...but again I struggle with these type threads.

 

[Knife_Geek]

Not sure if these two statements contradict each other, but never have had much success with these type threads.
I'm also unsure of where Tom usually brings a blade down to with his re-grinds. I'd imagine it's on a case by case basis, but reholli brings up valid points and concerns, and you seem to validate them. Hopefully Tom can chime in with his thoughts and experience as well.

If what you say is true gunmike, and a .010" edge is indeed plenty strong for most, it makes you wonder why it isn't regularly offered from both a production standpoint (I'm not aware of any factory offering that geometry), and/or custom makers themselves.

It's good to read that there are and will be limitations with this type of geometry.

Now I guess I was unsure if you meant that taking piece of steel down to .005" was stupid, or cutting something heavy with an edge that thin was...but again I struggle with these type threads.

I think that when gunmike says that a .010" edge is plenty strong he means more for us knife nuts. I have a Waved Endura thats been kriened and on a couple occasions I let none knife folk give it a whirl and it came back kinda mangled where as when I was cutting the very same stuff with it I never had an issue. that said even after being all messed up it sharpened back in about 2 min flat so it wasnt a big issue.

 

[Thomas W]

I think that when gunmike says that a .010" edge is plenty strong he means more for us knife nuts.

Ahh, I see.

I have a Waved Endura thats been kriened and on a couple occasions I let none knife folk give it a whirl and it came back kinda mangled where as when I was cutting the very same stuff with it I never had an issue.

Interesting.

 

[Morrow]

Thomas W.

You stated you don't have much success with threads like this. Are their specific issues with getting a knife reground this thin that you agree or disagree with? You seem to be beating around the bush on making your point.

 

[Thomas W]

No real point from me m98, although Lycosa had a take that I noted.

Hopefully, Tom's regrinds will teach us that this is the way a knife should cut---IF we don't abuse them.

Just trying to increase my knowledge in this area.

 

[redsst]

I'm sure you already know the answer to your questions, Mr. Thomas.

The reason no production knife company offers this thickness is because the majority of knife buyers are not what we'd consider "knife knuts".

These "non-knuts" would destroy an edge this thin in no time at all. Then Spyderco's, Benchmade's, Kershaws's, etc... warranty department would be overrun with knives returned for chipped edges.

Therefore, production companies run the edges thicker (nothing wrong with these edges by-the-way) so that the blades can take a bit more abuse from your average knife buyer.

 

[offsetlover]

It is ground to .010 with the edge set to 30 degrees inclusive.

ok. thanks morrowj. your seb is S30V right? what all have you cut and how well has it held up?

 

[Thomas W]

I'm sure you already know the answer to your questions, Mr. Thomas.

The reason no production knife company offers this thickness is because the majority of knife buyers are not what we'd consider "knife knuts".

These "non-knuts" would destroy an edge this thin in no time at all. Then Spyderco's, Benchmade's, Kershaws's, etc... warranty department would be overrun with knives returned for chipped edges.

Therefore, production companies run the edges thicker (nothing wrong with these edges by-the-way) so that the blades can take a bit more abuse from your average knife buyer.

This post (from another thread) by DoW I also found worth remembering.

Comment on factory edges: it's rare that I even use a new knife before taking the edge down to 12 deg/side or less, but I've come to realize there may be one significant practical advantage to the factories leaving edges more obtuse, which is that probably a lot fewer blades are getting overheated during sharpening. I know many of us have experienced problems with factory edges due to overheating -- very, very easy to do with a power grinder and buffer -- so just think how much more careful they'd have to be if they were running the edges thinner. Not only would it probably be more labor-intensive, but a thinner edge means less mass to act as a heat sink, plus I think more acute edges would necessarily require greater skill with still more blades being ruined just in the normal course of manufacturing.

Considering, too, that the average knife buyer out there likely doesn't have the understanding and skill required when using a knife with an acute edge, and probably wants his EDC to serve as screwdriver, prybar and all-purpose scraper as well ... you get the idea. Let those of us who are more blade-savvy, and have the sharpening skills anyway, tune the edge to our liking.

Of course I'm sure I couldn't resist a Krein-like grind on a factory blade, so if any of the manufacturers out there are considering it ....

 

[gunmike1]

Thomas, didn't you already say in previous threads that your current geometries end up leaving huge bins full of destroyed knives replaced under warranty? You also stated that your grinders would have a much tougher time getting edges that thin, and you would have a much larger reject rate and have to throw away more blades, I believe. Those were the reasons you gave in the past for production companies not going that thin. Maybe I should have said "overbuilt for cutting uses" when referrring to most factory edges. I was trying to make the point that a .010" edge won't crumple the first time you cut a cardboard box or plastic clam pack with it. I believe the Falkniven U2 and possibly the Caly Jr. (prior to being discontinued) got close to .010" from the factory, but I have only used .005" edged regrinds of those knives (without catastrophic failure), not the factory versions. I hear Opinels and SAK's are plenty thin, as well. All of those are smaller knives with cutting oriented contruction and geometries. Anyway, if your realities are huge amounts of destroyed knives replaced for free despite thick edges and you are selling knives like hotcakes why worry about what us darksiders think about factory knife edges being too thick? It seems like you just want to beat a dead horse, as we went over this in several threads already. There are plenty of people happy with factory grinds, but then again there are a lot of us darksiders who can't have a knife thin enough. I wonder how many of those happy with the factory grinds might change their minds with a side by side cutting comparison with a regrind? Some would love them, some would probably destroy them. In the end, I guess it doesn't really matter. I regrind my knives to the thickness I want and the vast majority of knife users are happy with what they get from the factory.

The only knives that I have bought that were stock with edges as thin or thinner than these regrinds were a $180 240mm Takeda Gyuto and a Tom Krein Ultimate Caper (both customs). Sure, I'd love to see factory edges thinner and think that it can be done (as a person completely out of the loop on the intricacies of knife production), but in the meanwhile I ship my knives to Tom Krein for a regrind or rebevel the knives myself and I'm happy. For me, a .005" edged knife works just fine for cutting most things like clampacks, cardboard, rope, tie wraps, ect., but I cut straight. A Byrd Meadowlark I had reground to .005" and sharpened flat to the stone chipped when I manhandled it on purpose through a 1 gallon Gatorade bottle (thick plastic with curves in it for reinforcement, this is the stupid cutting I was talking about), and that was to be expected. It did sharpen out in just a minute or two, though. I can go right through a standard soda bottle (much thinner plastic than the Gatorade bottle I mentioned) without issues with that Meadowlark, or any other regrind I have without any significant damage, but again I cut straight. A novice that manhandles and sideloads the edge of a knife will chip it out or bend it, thinner edges are of course less forgiving in that regard. I've seen my brother pry nails out of a wall with a knife, and even with the thick factory edge the knife chipped badly as expected. Some people will manage to blow out an edge no matter how thick you make it with their stupidity, but I think the group of us darksiders and knife knuts on the boards here tend to prefer to use our knives as cutting tools as opposed to pry bars, and thus prefer the cutting efficiency of thinner edges. Also, a .010" edge isn't as fragile as most would think IMO, but I probably have a skewed perspective and I use knives as cutting tools and not scrapers or pry bars (I believe STR was really happy and surprised by the cutting performance and durability of his Jess Horn regrind, after being critical of such thin regrinds prior to actually using one if I recall). Again, a lot of us wish we could get those thin edges from the factory, but I think most of us can live with the fact that most factory knives will be way thicker. There are also those who can't find an edge thick enough, as evidenced by all of the "what is the toughest knife ever" threads we see. Some edges of course SHOULD be thicker than the Tom Krein regrinds, like the ~.019"-.022" you get on a 4" bladed Spyderco Military which is meant for a bit more HD usage than a Caly Jr., and it is in a steel not noted for it's great toughness. Going for .010" on that knife, then trying some chopping or batonning with twisting might not be good. As it is that knife combines good cutting ability with good edge durability. On a smaller <3" or so bladed gents knife of light construction, however, I see no reason except for the idiocy of some end line users (not to be underestimated) not to be able to go thinner, but if a company is making money as is and considers grinding those knives thinner a money losing proposition and bad business then I understand why they would avoid going thin on those knives.

Mike

Edit to add: Thomas, nice quote of DoW. I know I have been rambling, but the point that I was trying to make is I understand factories going thicker than I personally prefer, but wouldn't complain one bit if a factory knife came out with a Krein like grind. After a little thought it just seemed like you were trying to bag on us who love our Krein regrinds for all of the reasons that we previously mentioned for liking them. Sorry if I came across as an A hole.

 

[STR]

Originally posted by redsst:
I'm sure you already know the answer to your questions, Mr. Thomas.

The reason no production knife company offers this thickness is because the majority of knife buyers are not what we'd consider "knife knuts".

These "non-knuts" would destroy an edge this thin in no time at all. Then Spyderco's, Benchmade's, Kershaws's, etc... warranty department would be overrun with knives returned for chipped edges.

Therefore, production companies run the edges thicker (nothing wrong with these edges by-the-way) so that the blades can take a bit more abuse from your average knife buyer.

Actually truth be told I ruined one I did for myself whittling with it by making the mistake of force cutting it through a knot which resulted in a drastically deformed edge that chipped out the next time I cut with it.

I've since sold off my Krein regrind Tom did for me on the first one on the Jess Horn ZDP189 folder I rebuilt for myself and I did this before I ruined that one too. I'm a knife nut and first time I cut with it like I'm used to with others it came back to bite me in the a$$ on another I had that was an S30V blade!

I think how well a thin thin thin edge lasts both for edge keeping and for durability reasons is dependent on the steel, and the thinness of it's edge geometry as well as the capability and as the case may be incapability of the end line user that has it in their hands. Personally, and I mean no offense here at all to anyone, and I don't want to get into a long debate or argument over it but I think that S30V Sebbie (if thats what the steel is I mean) would be one I'd be very guarded about using. I've seen many much thicker S30V blades chip out big time so that one would be for me only and only for my eyes too! First time someone not knowing picks that up to use it you may find out how weak it really is but thats just my opinion.

I agree Tom's grinds are among the best in the industry though. He has one set of steady hands and a good eye like few others. The grind on that one and my own was perfect beyond belief really.

STR

 

[Thomas W]

Anyway, if your realities are huge amounts of destroyed knives replaced for free despite thick edges and you are selling knives like hotcakes why worry about what us darksiders think about factory knife edges being too thick?

As I said, I'm just trying to learn like everyone else.

It seems like you just want to beat a dead horse, as we went over this in several threads already.

gunmike, I've never even given an opinion in this thread.

After a little thought it just seemed like you were trying to bag on us who love our Krein regrinds for all of the reasons that we previously mentioned for liking them.

Sorry if it came off like that, certainly wasn't my intention. I actually admire Tom's regrinds.

Sorry if I came across as an A hole.

I didn't take it as you were.

 

[Morrow]

Where is Cliff? He could clear this all up.....kidding....only kidding.

We'll see how well it holds up. I used it the past couple days for fairly light to medium cutting takes. Boxes.....zip ties......phone wire and some cat-3 cable has pretty much been it. No trouble going through the light gauge wire and it went through the zip ties like they weren't there. The edge seems to be ship shape.

As I said before, I sent this knife to Tom expecting a scalpel in return. That's exactly what I have and I'm happy with it. I'm well aware of the limitations of a thin grind and it's doubtful I'll use this knife for anything other than light to medium cutting tasks. I always have either a small fixed blade or a mini-manix close by for heavier tasks. By comparison, I have a Lone Wolf City Knife I carry (I rotate between the Sebenza, a UKPK and the Lone Wolf City Knife) and it is also very thinly ground. I don't personally feel there is much difference in how I intend to use any of them. Most of my cutting tasks are light to medium and I want my knife to go through the material I'm cutting with as little effort as possible. This Sebenza does exactly that.