The Future of Stainless Knife Steel Design

Larrin

Larrin

Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
Joined
Jan 17, 2004
Messages
4,847
Very interesting topic again, Larrin. Thank you for the wonderful insight.

For real working pocket knives, it seems like non-stainless is the way to go. Unless you work in a corrosive environment. As you noted, a lot of folks (knife nerds aside) want a blemish-free low maintenance blade. I imagine collectors and sellers, although very serious about their knives, also appreciate blades that don't easily develop rust spots. You even made mention of corrosion taking away some of the sharpness of non-stainless blades over time. That's another factor in play that supports the stainless steel market.

I think I would be happy with a tough, wear-resistant non-stainless steel that is still fairly resistant to blemishing. I'm okay with a little maintenance for the added performance. Sounds like we're progressing in that direction.

Do you recommend any after market protectant(s) that can slow down the blemishing of non-stainless steel blades?
 
Thank you, very informative and very interesting. Now I know why I like 14c28n and Aeb-l!
 
CarsonWayne said:
Very interesting topic again, Larrin. Thank you for the wonderful insight.

For real working pocket knives, it seems like non-stainless is the way to go. Unless you work in a corrosive environment. As you noted, a lot of folks (knife nerds aside) want a blemish-free low maintenance blade. I imagine collectors and sellers, although very serious about their knives, also appreciate blades that don't easily develop rust spots. You even made mention of corrosion taking away some of the sharpness of non-stainless blades over time. That's another factor in play that supports the stainless steel market.

I think I would be happy with a tough, wear-resistant non-stainless steel that is still fairly resistant to blemishing. I'm okay with a little maintenance for the added performance. Sounds like we're progressing in that direction.

Do you recommend any after market protectant(s) that can slow down the blemishing of non-stainless steel blades?
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To be clear I think it’s possible to make new steels that have corrosion resistance just as good as current stainless knife steels, just with reduced chromium along with modified other elements.

I have never used any rust prevention products. Maybe other members of the forum can recommend their favorites.
 
Has any work been done on how different steel's wear when they dull? In terms of microchipping vs rolling or blunting. The main thing steering me back toward non stainless is the chipping.
 
kylemiller said:
Has any work been done on how different steel's wear when they dull? In terms of microchipping vs rolling or blunting. The main thing steering me back toward non stainless is the chipping.
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It’s not about which steel wears, rolls, chips, or corrodes. There are different edge geometries, different uses, and different users. I can make a knife that won’t chip or roll out of any steel heat treated in any way you want. It also will cut very poorly. So we test different steels and heat treatments for hardness (resistance to rolling), toughness (resistance to chipping) slicing edge retention (edge wear), and corrosion resistance (edge corrosion). Then edge geometry, steel, and heat treatment is optimized for the given knife. Steel is just one element. But we can design steels that have better, or at least different, combinations of hardness, wear resistance, toughness, and corrosion resistance for different users and types of knives. Then testing a knife for a certain type of cutting is the only way to learn what the major blunting mode is for that type of work. Then one of the three elements (geometry, heat treatment, or steel) can be adjusted based on how the edge is blunting.

There are stainless steels where toughness is high (like AEB-L) where chipping because of the steel’s inherent lack of toughness is unlikely to be the problem. But the powder metallurgy versions are in a narrower band of properties, mostly medium at best toughness. More balanced steels should be possible in between AEB-L with high toughness and average wear resistance, and the powder metallurgy steels with high wear resistance and average to low toughness. The non-stainless steels like 4V and Vanadis 4 Extra show that it can be done.
 
I wish that was my experience. Rarely do I get a stainless PM steel that doesn't chip with use. Generally I try to match the factory angle as best I can for sharpening. I've only been trying this since the spring time, but my hypothesis was non stainless steels would chip less in my use (using PSF-27 and 3V, both from Strider) and my biases have been confirmed so far.

Problem is my process is beyond anecdotal and subjective. Yet, so far so good. I understand it's all chipping on the microscopic level, but I haven't had any that stand out since starting. Only a couple months, and only a couple knives without real hard use either. Still hunting for that steel that "wears well", even if I have to sharpen a little more often. I'd love to see testing for this. Though I don't know how you'd measure. Maybe chip size? I'd like to see a table of identically ground Spyderco Mule Team's with the same edge, cut till dull and check out how they dulled and what the edge looks like in it's "dull" state.
 
Larrin, can you add a bit about why carbon steel blades have a smell when handled? It is true, sort of, but the reason is interesting.
 
kylemiller said:
I wish that was my experience. Rarely do I get a stainless PM steel that doesn't chip with use. Generally I try to match the factory angle as best I can for sharpening. I've only been trying this since the spring time, but my hypothesis was non stainless steels would chip less in my use (using PSF-27 and 3V, both from Strider) and my biases have been confirmed so far.

Problem is my process is beyond anecdotal and subjective. Yet, so far so good. I understand it's all chipping on the microscopic level, but I haven't had any that stand out since starting. Only a couple months, and only a couple knives without real hard use either. Still hunting for that steel that "wears well", even if I have to sharpen a little more often. I'd love to see testing for this. Though I don't know how you'd measure. Maybe chip size? I'd like to see a table of identically ground Spyderco Mule Team's with the same edge, cut till dull and check out how they dulled and what the edge looks like in it's "dull" state.
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If all you do is slicing it will dull due to wear.
 
USMCPOP said:
Larrin, can you add a bit about why carbon steel blades have a smell when handled? It is true, sort of, but the reason is interesting.
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Carbon and stainless steel smells the same, the only difference in smell would be from reacting with something else.
 
It looks like NioMax could be what Nitro-V was supposed to be. I hope to see some higher toughness stainless PM steels in the future.
 
I can't believe how much I want a '3v mod' with niobium fixed blade now....

can we please just order a tonne or 2?? I'm almost certain our members would easily buy up a heat or 2
 
Another great read. Lots of good info here.

And yes, 14c28n is awesome in a pocket knife.

Thanks again for all the hard work and sharing it with us.
 
dirc said:
I can't believe how much I want a '3v mod' with niobium fixed blade now....

can we please just order a tonne or 2?? I'm almost certain our members would easily buy up a heat or 2
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That would be cool. :)
 
kylemiller said:
I'd like to see a table of identically ground Spyderco Mule Team's with the same edge, cut till dull and check out how they dulled and what the edge looks like in it's "dull" state.
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Pete of Cedric & Ada did exactly this with most of the Mules (24, I think) and I'm doing similar test. He didn't mention how they dulled. I could try to capture how they dulled, although without a decent microscope I'm sure sure that I could really discern. Are you looking for rolling vs. chipping vs. something else? Curious what you're looking for.
 
Great article. Thanks so much. Your work has led me to making a Chinese veggie cleaver of CPM M4 (getting back from Peters soon) and next up I’m planning to try fillet knives for my dad one in AEB-L and one in 3V to see which one seems better balanced for my dad overall in use in terms of maintaining the edge and corrosion susceptibility.
 
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