The Gamble

Lorien said:
it seems to me that knife makers sometimes work more closely with a particular collector. Sometimes will bump this collector, (maybe patron would be a better word?) to the front of their list, or otherwise work collaboratively with them on various projects.
I might be wrong in making that generality, but I've seen it happen, and have been involved in this kind of interaction myself. In those cases I really try to do my part and make their risk worthwhile.
Click to expand...

Lorien, and others, what is your experience with this kind of preferred customer treatment?
If it is the same personality type, in traffic, when you see the lane closures there are always the anxious people who will speed forward to the very front, causing a bottleneck.
David
 
nice..

gambling & success as maker

i start to see knifes as long term investment,
this also means i have less joy off theme because they will not leave the display case for some use.

success taking over , i see this in some knife making friends ( hobby/ parttime ) , 2 year order book... mostly for the same model, i really would like to think off making 2 years long the same knife.

and that is only 2 years.... heard rumors about guys with 7 year books for the same model ... ( professional makers )
when it is still passion to make a perfect knife and when douse it start to be a dirty job
 
Lorien said:
while I know that happens, that's not really what I was referring to.
Click to expand...

Really Lorien? Have you seen many examples of makers being ridiculed in perpetuity for refusing to make a knife requested by a collector or dealer (even allowing for the wildly absurd assumption that accepting such a commission would have rendered the maker a "prostitue")?

Roger
 
2knife said:
Lorien, and others, what is your experience with this kind of preferred customer treatment?
If it is the same personality type, in traffic, when you see the lane closures there are always the anxious people who will speed forward to the very front, causing a bottleneck.
David
Click to expand...

I think there are purveyors and collectors who can elevate the perceived stature of a bew maker when these individuals buy from them or work with this new maker. Especially when these individuals have a prominent web presence or reputation, and/or publish widely-read books about custom/handmade knives, and/or are "the usual suspects" who are interviewed every third month in Blade Magazine.

So I do not see these individuals as being like the folks who cut into traffic lines. I think maybe some makers go to special efforts on behalf of these individuals (thereby making Lorien's "Gamble") out of self-interest. Which now conveniently connects this thread to Ed's Ayn Rand reference. :)
 
Ed Fowler said:
There are some dealers (collectors) who will do their best to make a maker prostitute himself and make something he does not want to make. When the maker refuses, sometimes he will face ridicule from that dealer for ever more. Call it the price of freedom.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure that I can take your quote, Ed, and keep it relevant to this thread....but not exactly how it was meant.

I have been guilty, and so have others that I know of requesting things from a maker, both new makers and veteran knifemakers.

Sometimes, you see a photo of a knife in a magazine or a book and you find yourself in front of a maker at a show, or something about their work catches your eye. I have asked makers in the past(long past, luckily) to make knives not only out of their comfort zone, but simply outside of their ability.

They did their best to please me, but it clearly did not work....instead of saying "I'm not sure I can make that knife to your expectations"...all the makers of what were "mistakes" took the orders without expressing any misgivings. I'm not sure if that was ego, embarrassment or error on their part.

It started back in the '80's with one maker I requested a Loveless style Big Bear from...he was an experienced maker, but clearly had not handled Loveless knives OR was incapable of making a similar knife. This piece was very heavy, the tang was not very tapered and the maker took it upon himself to filework the tang in a vine pattern and fill the valleys with black epoxy, some of which had bubbles in it. I thanked the maker for the knife and immediately traded it to a friend who liked shiny, blingy knives....this was a disaster.

I ordered a very large knife from Ron Gaston once, and instead of simply increasing the blade size, and balancing it out, he must have photocopied and magnified the pattern size, it wound up having almost a 6" handle to an 8" blade. Sold that one for a profit.

Asked a maker of a well known fighter pattern to make me one with some modifications, and it wound up looking like a sharpened butter knife.

We all make mistakes, and mine were of ignorance, not of malice. It is how we learn from our mistakes that makes us better knifemakers and knife collectors...it is all part of The Gamble.

Lorien, you are sort of right with your statement. Many collectors and makers develop an organic relationship where that collector is often associated with that maker;

Curt Erickson-Bob Betzner
Dan Farr-Roger Pinnock
Ed Fowler-David (I can't remember his last name)
Kyle Royer-Kevin Jones
Bill Bagwell-Joe Paranee
Bob Loveless-Al Williams, J.W. Denton, Louis Chow
Jon Brand/Joe Richardson-Don Hanson III
Danbo-Russ Andrews

And the list goes on....it's pretty natural and it COULD be a gamble if the collector turns out to be a butthole in some way, but the same can be said about any human interaction. From the maker's part, I would say the biggest risk is if the collector doesn't pay for the knife after they get it, but that is sooooo rare, compared to losing money on a maker that you have taken The Gamble on.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
STeven, you keep making this thread even BETTER. I am lovin' what you're doing here.

Bob
 
Kohai999 said:
Sometimes, you see a photo of a knife in a magazine or a book and you find yourself in front of a maker at a show, or something about their work catches your eye. I have asked makers in the past(long past, luckily) to make knives not only out of their comfort zone, but simply outside of their ability.

They did their best to please me, but it clearly did not work....instead of saying "I'm not sure I can make that knife to your expectations"...all the makers of what were "mistakes" took the orders without expressing any misgivings. I'm not sure if that was ego, embarrassment or error on their part.
Click to expand...

This very question came up during presentation Peter and I made at Ashokan this past weekend. And the bolded portion was the consensus view of the right response. Of course, the first step is for the collector to educate himself on taking the right project to the right maker. Don't go to W. Loerchner and ask for a forge-texture tactical camp chopper.

But requests will be inevitably be made that fall outside the maker's comfort zone. This shouldn't rationally be equated with an invitation to prostitution - it could just be an enthusiastic new collector who happens to like that particular maker and is asking the maker to bring into creation his particular sharp and shiny dream knife. All that needs to be done is for the maker to politely decline, and perhaps make a recommendation of a fellow maker better suited to the project. No pimps, johns, prostitutes or their equivalents are present, IMO.

Roger
 
RogerP said:
Really Lorien? Have you seen many examples of makers being ridiculed in perpetuity for refusing to make a knife requested by a collector or dealer (even allowing for the wildly absurd assumption that accepting such a commission would have rendered the maker a "prostitue")?

Roger
Click to expand...

Roger, I really can't think of any examples now that you mention it. Maybe it doesn't happen, I guess I really don't know, I just wouldn't be surprised if it did from time to time.
I certainly agree with you that taking a commission as mentioned earlier would not render a knife maker a prostitute necessarily. I can't really think of anything that would, I'd be interested to find out what kind of scenario would lead to something like this.
 
There are collectors who will do a great deal to promote the makers they like - commission high quality pictures, post on forums, display their collection at shows, etc. It is but normal that the makers should recognize that effort and reward it with some measure of preferential treatment.

A slightly different pattern is that some collectors have such a reputation for quality and judgment that to have an example of your work in their collection is by itself a powerful endorsement. This is a common situation in the art world. Those collectors receive some form of preferential treatment. They have to work hard for it.
 
Great and very interesting thread.

I for one promote Friend /Makers work very aggressively. If I believe in them and there work why wouldn't I ?

Practicaly every day I speak to other collectors and makers , I find them a grand group of people :)
 
I am a ho. {everyone speaks back in unison, HI HO}
As for as my self is concerned I liked being asked to step outside my boundries and comfort zone. I had a Russian guy call me one time and ask me if I can make a Shasqa. I told him sure, and as we were talking on the phone I was thumbing very quickly through my Stone's Glossary to see what the heck a Shasqa was. Dangest cutting sword I ever had in my hands once I learned how to make it right. I ended up putting 2 and 1/2 pounds of gold and silver on it.

Now, saying that, there has been a few times I have called the client back and told him I just could not do it to my satisfaction. Meanwhile he had photos of what I had been doing with it all along so at least he had those at no cost. There were a couple of times I sent what I had to the client for his approval and it was up to him if he would pay for it or return it.

Right now, I have 4 different project pieces like that to do. I am working on two of them. One of those I am on my second attempt to get it right and the other piece I am on my third and last attempt to get it. Time will tell.

My greatest fun is learning. Yes, I do have regular patterns that I make and I still go back and tweak them as I learn. It is only in stretching myself to do outside my normal do I learn enough to tweak my regular patterns. So this is a win win for both the clients and myself. It helps the gamble pay off for the client.

As STeven alluded to on taking delivery of sub-expected pieces that happens. Personally if I send it out I have a reasonable guess that the client will like it or I will not deliver it to begin with. As a maker, all of this above is my part of the gamble. Thats the makers call mostly, of, if to send it out.

Roger mentioned getting the bowie from me. I do remember thinking I will never make a bowie knife. All a person ever needs is a hunter. I am glad I stretched myself with bowies and with other designs.

I collect knives as well for over 20 years. I have thought for several years Eduardo Berado was a good bet as is up and coming Sandro Beck from Brazil. I think both are good gambles. They stretch themselves constantly. This is good and makes me feel like my gamble will pay off.
This is just my thoughts and opinions. Good thread STeven.
 
I must not be as daring as you guys. When I started I was very young and would only buy names I liked. I had no forum experience and not enough knowledge of knives to lay out decent money on someone I had never heard of. Now I know what I'm looking for but barely get to shows.. :( Point being I don't gamble much.

I'm with all you regarding promotion of maker/friends or just favorite makers.
 
Last edited:
Some knifemakers specialize in taking gambles with collectors. They advertise that they will take your design and make it for you. Turning an idea into reality...hey that's what an engineer does...and an artist :)
 
Brownshoe: to a lesser degree, that's what happened below.

I pressed makers often out of their 'familiar' zone for the betterment of all of us. (I submit there is a difference between familiar and comfort, although ANYTHING unfamiliar can get uncomfortable.)

Here are some worthy examples:

Integral knives:

Tai Goo and I went through many exchanges to arrive at this open scabbard integral dirk. Tai took the BIG lead, but I allowed and pressed him.
orig.jpg


The same would be said of this incredible Nick Wheeler masterpiece:
large.jpg


And this Don Hanson beauty:
orig.jpg


•••••••••••••••••••••••••

Pat and Wes Crawford had made hundreds of these 'Casper' folders, all with a generic pocket clip. I asked for this combination of materials, and asked them to create the custom clip. This was the first one they did, and have retained the style ever since. This 'gamble' on their part paid off. You may thank me. :)
orig.jpg


Ditto on the usage of Micarta and red liners, on a few more makers:
orig.jpg


orig.jpg


orig.jpg


orig.jpg


orig.jpg


Koji had never made this style 'SLB' folder until I asked him. When he did, and he delivered it to me at a Show, he had onlookers ordering replicates. (I told Koji to 'dress it up'. He did just that.)
orig.jpg


orig.jpg


Kevin Casey had yet to 'flute' a bolster. He did so delightfully, with my prompting.
orig.jpg


I asked RJ to build me a 'dress' Rampage. He used pistaccio wood, CNC, and his machined filework. Gave him fits, but, BOY, did it turn out sweet!
orig.jpg


I asked Jeffrey Harkins to create his mini 'Alpha' with blackwood and gold pins. When he delivered and displayed it to me at a Chicago Show, he said he could have sold it three times there.
orig.jpg


These examples are some of my best collaborations and shows how the maker has to gamble on his experience with a client's vision. Not alwasy a great marriage.

Thanks. This was fun.

Coop
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top