The GREATEST STEEL for knives

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Dec 16, 2007
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THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS GREATEST OR THE FINEST STEEL FOR KNIFE MAKING. Don't be shocked as we always mislead a great knife by the steel it's made out of. But, we forget the man who's behind that knife who builds it. There are lots of good knife makers out there who makes great knife with proprietary steel. It's not their steel that makes their knife so great, but their effort, dedication and compassion for their blades.

Everybody knows in the blade world that BUSSE makes great knife with their INFI steel. Believe me, if anyone, besides the Busse family, comes with knives out of INFI steel will not perform like when Busse people make it. Without their hard work and devotion, those knives will never be born.

Blade is the oldest and the first tool of man. So, we men have been interested in making this great tool for a long long time. But, now days we look for the shortcut and finding bypassing good old fashioned metal forging and making great knife out of ordinary steel. Like the powder steel from CPM series from crucible steel that is supposed to break all disadvantages of making good knife (the dilemma of perfect blade steel - knife that holds an edge will sharpen easily, will not rust but perform like a carbon steel, will be very hard RC rating but will have good ductility like a sword).

Now, the Japanese people overcome this problem thousands of years ago. Their choice of steel 1045, a very ordinary carbon steel. Now, as steel it’s very simple, but after the Japanese makes blade out of it, it become super steel, even capable of cutting other High Carbon steel. The swords blade’s edge having a RC60, and the spine having RC40. So, the edge is very hard and capable of cutting through virtually anything it comes in contact with. Also, spine remains ductile and tough enough when metal to metal impact. So, it’s lot less brittle. Now, being a carbon steel it’ll rust very fast. They overcome that problem by giving their blade’s a mirror image so iron oxidation will not happen as the surface is very smooth. And heat treatment is done in such a way that the bonding between iron atoms so good that it’s chemically very stable.

Another great knife manufacturer who uses old and traditional steel and still makes knives that outperforms modern 21st Century knives is RANDALL MADE KNIFE. Using basic knife steel like 440 series and O1 as carbon steel. They used old fashioned HT and forging to make great knives. This is the same company that gave birth to Bob Loveless as their waiting for a knife was so long that he started making his own.

So, current manufacturer is trying to bring that great steel for us at an affordable price using modern technology to create that steel man been making over thousands of year. Unfortunately, technology fails in this case and we are not even close.

As an Engineer and great admirer of man’s oldest tool, I still believe technology is helpless to make a great knife that makes time stand still to it. Just need a knifemaker’s devotion, passion and love for making that great blade. :thumbup:
 

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I agree with tiger_blade. Perhaps too much these days we give emphasis on steel and not makers. Even best steel in hands of poor maker cannot make a good knife.
 
This is going to be a great thread.

Also do you think some historic artifacts [swords] can easily out-perform modern steels even in light of their age in head to head comparison? Thanks.
 
Huh? :confused:

Yes...There is no "best" steel for a knife. Never has been. Never will be.

And yes...bad geometry trumps "great" steel.

But are there modern steels with better "knife making" steel characteristics than ancient Japanese steels? Of course there are. How about rust resistance as a characteristic that ancient steels cannot approach? Edge retention?
 
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS GREATEST OR THE FINEST STEEL FOR KNIFE MAKING. ...


... (the dilemma of perfect blade steel - knife that holds an edge will sharpen easily, will not rust but perform like a carbon steel, will be very hard RC rating but will have good ductility like a sword).

Now, the Japanese people overcome this problem thousands of years ago....:

That's where I get confused. Is there "NO SUCH THING" as the perfect/greatest/finest knife/blade steel....or did the Japanese make it thousands of years ago?

:confused:
 
That's where I get confused. Is there "NO SUCH THING" as the perfect/greatest/finest knife/blade steel....or did the Japanese make it thousands of years ago?

:confused:

Tamahagane, which is steel best katana's are forged is quite exceptional steel and is procedure of several day non-stop working. Japanese iron ore has always been low grade and contained alot impurity. European and Swedish iron ore particularly was superior in all aspects.

In order to come around inferior steel, japanese during centuries formed way making excellent steel for low quality iron ore... Still, if European sword would make sameway using European iron ore, would sword resulted be superior compeared to tamahagane katana.

However considering that his procedure is centuries old it makes you respect greatly japanese sword smiths of Feudal Era japanese. It requires great inguinity to make exceptional steel like tamahagane in medieval times to overcome poor quality ore.
 
Tamahagane, which is steel best katana's are forged is quite exceptional steel and is procedure of several day non-stop working. Japanese iron ore has always been low grade and contained alot impurity. European and Swedish iron ore particularly was superior in all aspects.

In order to come around inferior steel, japanese during centuries formed way making excellent steel for low quality iron ore... Still, if European sword would make sameway using European iron ore, would sword resulted be superior compeared to tamahagane katana.

However considering that his procedure is centuries old it makes you respect greatly japanese sword smiths of Feudal Era japanese. It requires great inguinity to make exceptional steel like tamahagane in medieval times to overcome poor quality ore.


Oh...I understand your point entirely, thejammpa. Their steel technology was astounding even in today's terms.

What I'm not following is whether tiger-blade thinks tamahagane is the "perfect" knife steel or not.
 
...now days we look for the shortcut and finding bypassing good old fashioned metal forging and making great knife out of ordinary steel.

Like the powder steel from CPM series from crucible steel that is supposed to break all disadvantages of making good knife...


:confused: I don't understand what you are trying to convey? :confused:



I do agree with your point about the knifemaker being more important then the steel used.

And I always try to teach that heat treatment and edge geometry are as important as metallurgy.

But if you are trying to tell me that old school hand forged steels are somehow superior to modern double/triple vacuum smelted or particle steels, I'm not buying it.

The lack of impurities and refined grain structure of these modern steels are a leap forward, the ability to add additional alloying elements is icing on the cake.

Does this make the knifemakers job less important?

Of course not!



Big Mike
 
Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could take the best of both worlds and have a knife that's been fold forged with CPM M4 tool steel and given the same differential heat treat with extreme hardness of HRC 64 at the edge and HRC 40 near the spine? That would be quite the knife with quite a price tag too I would imagine.

Or perhaps the "best" would be a thin layer of diamond sandwiched between H1 Steel.
 
I also am not sure as to the exact point of the post.

I do agree there is no one best steel, even if you narrowed it down to "best steel for a specific purpose". For any one purpose there are several alloys whose performance cannot be differentiated real world usage.
 
some of you are seriously dense. he was saying that the japanese understood it wasn't the metal, it was the passion. they took average [at best] steel and made it great with their passion and ingenuity.

he says the perfect steel isn't some supersteel, but rather the extension of the knife maker's soul which is a finely crafted blade. that is the perfect steel
 
Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could take the best of both worlds and have a knife that's been fold forged with CPM M4 tool steel and given the same differential heat treat with extreme hardness of HRC 64 at the edge and HRC 40 near the spine? That would be quite the knife with quite a price tag too I would imagine.

Or perhaps the "best" would be a thin layer of diamond sandwiched between H1 Steel.

Those already exist, except the folding, which is unnecessary, and even detrimental when compared with modern steel. These blades just aren't shaped like knives. Sawsall blades have soft, spring tempered backs, extremely hard edges and cost about $6. Hacksaw blades have hard edges that will cut other high carbon steels, soft ends so they won't crack at the mounting holes, and will cut for a long time. They are pretty cheap too. Diamond coated cutting bits are on the way, and are already available in some places, though you need to know the use to choose properly. Don't even get me started on the old steels vs. new steels. Today's makers have as much passion as the old ones, depend on their knives for livelyhood just like before, and know 100x more about what's going on in the steel and how to get the most out of it. Nothing against the old makers. They did the best they could with what they had, and in some cases it can compete, barely, with what is done today. The maker's knowledge and dedication count for 90% of performance of a knife. Modern steels and research just make his vision attainable.
 
I agree.

Passion is one of the best ingredients that you can put into a knife.

It is something that I have come to recognize over my short time here on the forum, and although super-steels often intrigue me, we are lost without the passion that goes into our favorite knives.
 
Those already exist, except the folding, which is unnecessary, and even detrimental when compared with modern steel. These blades just aren't shaped like knives. Sawsall blades have soft, spring tempered backs, extremely hard edges and cost about $6. Hacksaw blades have hard edges that will cut other high carbon steels, soft ends so they won't crack at the mounting holes, and will cut for a long time. They are pretty cheap too. Diamond coated cutting bits are on the way, and are already available in some places, though you need to know the use to choose properly. Don't even get me started on the old steels vs. new steels. Today's makers have as much passion as the old ones, depend on their knives for livelyhood just like before, and know 100x more about what's going on in the steel and how to get the most out of it. Nothing against the old makers. They did the best they could with what they had, and in some cases it can compete, barely, with what is done today. The maker's knowledge and dedication count for 90% of performance of a knife. Modern steels and research just make his vision attainable.

i gotta play devils advocate. what about wootz and the true damascus recipe?? all of the modern marvels and we still can't duplicate it. some say it performs better than today's steels even. who knows. all i know is we should at least be able to duplicate it. we can clone sheep but we can't figure out how they did it??? ha.
 
some of you are seriously dense. he was saying that the japanese understood it wasn't the metal, it was the passion. they took average [at best] steel and made it great with their passion and ingenuity.

he says the perfect steel isn't some supersteel, but rather the extension of the knife maker's soul which is a finely crafted blade. that is the perfect steel


All the dedicated knifemakers I know share that passion. :cool:





Big Mike
 
i gotta play devils advocate. what about wootz and the true damascus recipe?? all of the modern marvels and we still can't duplicate it. some say it performs better than today's steels even. who knows. all i know is we should at least be able to duplicate it. we can clone sheep but we can't figure out how they did it??? ha.

It has been duplicated. It's performance is not greater than that of today's super steels. It's performance was much greater than that of Western European steels produced at the time of the Crusades.
 
some of you are seriously dense. he was saying that the japanese understood it wasn't the metal, it was the passion. they took average [at best] steel and made it great with their passion and ingenuity.

he says the perfect steel isn't some supersteel, but rather the extension of the knife maker's soul which is a finely crafted blade. that is the perfect steel

Thanks for explaining that. Us "seriously dense" people wouldn't have understood it without you.

Thank Scagel you turned up.
 
some of you are seriously dense. he was saying that the japanese understood it wasn't the metal, it was the passion. they took average [at best] steel and made it great with their passion and ingenuity.

he says the perfect steel isn't some supersteel, but rather the extension of the knife maker's soul which is a finely crafted blade. that is the perfect steel

That's what I'm gonna say the next time I try to sell someone a 420j2 Gas Station Special. "But... but it's an extension of the knife-makers SOOOOUUUUULLLLL!!!!!" :D
 
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