The GREATEST STEEL for knives

[marcinek]

It has been duplicated. It's performance is not greater than that of today's super steels. It's performance was much greater than that of Western European steels produced at the time of the Crusades.

No it hasn't! SpartanSaint says so! Remember...he is not "seriously dense" like the rest of us. He told us so.

 

[Russ Andrews]

Take your pick.....The greatest steel is the one in your pocket..
(because its the one you have)....or for some, it will always be
the one that's just beyond reach...

 

[SpartanSaint]

i said some. i did not say i did, and find me where it was duplicated please; from my understanding, fold welded steels are not true damascus.

i'm not seriously dense. i don't know much, but i can read. try that some time. you obviously didn't read the op. it wasn't that hard to understand. feel free to disagree with him, but its not like he worded it poorly or that it was that hard of a concept to understand.

the rest of the trolling is pathetic. leave it on topic

 

[me2]

i gotta play devils advocate. what about wootz and the true damascus recipe?? all of the modern marvels and we still can't duplicate it. some say it performs better than today's steels even. who knows. all i know is we should at least be able to duplicate it. we can clone sheep but we can't figure out how they did it??? ha.

There has been some extensive study of original wootz samples. If the examples donated for study are truly the best of that type available, I see no reason to try to duplicate it as far as performance goes. That is far from the only reason to try, but it can only at best match what we have today, not exceed it. I will admit that those were only 4 examples, but they were made by a renowned smith of the time. Based on the testing I've read about, the claims of superior feats were exagerated at best. We pretty much know how they did it. For modern industry, there is just no reason to do it again. For all the myth, legend, accidental nanostructures, and beauty, they can't compete with modern materials.

 

[SpartanSaint]

There has been some extensive study of original wootz samples. If the examples donated for study are truly the best of that type available, I see no reason to try to duplicate it as far as performance goes. That is far from the only reason to try, but it can only at best match what we have today, not exceed it. I will admit that those were only 4 examples, but they were made by a renowned smith of the time. Based on the testing I've read about, the claims of superior feats were exagerated at best. We pretty much know how they did it. For modern industry, there is just no reason to do it again. For all the myth, legend, accidental nanostructures, and beauty, they can't compete with modern materials.

which is probably true. but true damascus [from what i've read] would likely be better than the fold welding we try to do? or possibly as good as. either way, i think it'd be better to say "genuine damascus" not something we try to pass off as the real deal

 

[knarfeng]

I do not refer to pattern welded steel, which is today referred to as "Damascus".

There is a general myth in some of the popular literature that genuine Damascus steel blades possess outstanding mechanical properties, often thought superior to modern steels. This idea was shown to be incorrect as long ago as 1924.

http://bronksknifeworks.com/historical.htm

A quote by John Verhoven, an eminent PhD metallurgist who, among other things, specialized in studying true Damascus. If you don't believe him, I cannot help you.

 

[SpartanSaint]

i'm not sure what to believe, however i do find it fun to play devils advocate. i guarantee i could find a phd mettalurgist who disagrees

 

[Big Mike]

which is probably true. but true damascus [from what i've read] would likely be better than the fold welding we try to do? or possibly as good as. either way, i think it'd be better to say "genuine damascus" not something we try to pass off as the real deal

Wootz steel and pattern welded steels are completely different.


Both can perform well if properly done but don't expect them to outperform the newer steels like CPM-3V.




Big Mike

 

[SpartanSaint]

Wootz steel and pattern welded steels are completely different.


Both can perform well if properly done but don't expect them to outperform the newer steels like CPM-3V.




Big Mike

i acknowledged that. however, i would like to point out that the op is writing from the point of view that the steel used is irrelevant. a cheaply made knife from cpm-3v is not a better knife than a knife that was well built from wootz, or what have you.

but there is no use trying to argue that to a steel junkie lol..

 

[me2]

Pattern weld of modern steels, like 15N20 and O1, works very well. There's no way you're going to dig up or have made in the traditional way a wootz or pattern weld blade that can out perform something as simple as 1080 to 5160. I do not know what Alfred is doing now. He may have modernized and improved the process and be able to hold his own with his wootz blades. (OP content warning) That would just prove the OP's point (and mine) about passion and smith knowledge.

Alfred Pendray and John Verhoeven and others reproduced the appearance, microstructur, composition, and properties of 500 year old wootz samples. The papers used to be free on the interweb, but you may have to pay for them now. Some people still say the world is flat. That doesn't mean they are right. If you pay for it, I'll get my PhD in metallurgy and say whatever you want. I just won't have any data or proof to back it up.

 

[Big Mike]

i acknowledged that. however, i would like to point out that the op is writing from the point of view that the steel used is irrelevant. a cheaply made knife from cpm-3v is not a better knife than a knife that was well built from wootz, or what have you.

but there is no use trying to argue that to a steel junkie lol..

Well if you read so well, you should read my original post in this thread.

I do agree with your point about the knifemaker being more important then the steel used.

And I always try to teach that heat treatment and edge geometry are as important as metallurgy.

The knives I trust are made by the makers I trust, :thumbup:


...guys like Bob Dozier and Mike Stewart, guys that know their steel,


...guys that have the passion. :thumbup:



I think we have come back on topic.







Big Mike

 

[knarfeng]

i'm not sure what to believe, however i do find it fun to play devils advocate. i guarantee i could find a phd mettalurgist who disagrees

Nonsense. You won't find a metallurgist anywhere that would disagree with Verhoeven on his home turf.

i'm not sure what to believe, however i do find it fun to play devils advocate. i guarantee i could find a phd mettalurgist who disagrees

Stirring the pot for jollies is not well thought of on BladeForums.

 

[Chewy1]

Just to pile on, I think that there is a best steel, but it's very difficult to find it. What has been listed in this thread are some crucial variables. What the steel? What's the heat treat? Who's the maker? What's the intended use?

But, if I could narrow it down to What's the steel with the widest use of applications without damaging the blade, as designed and heat-treated by ____________, well, then I might be on to something. But without a checklist, we're all just left with feelings. That's why I appreciate the real-world cutting tests done by our forumites. They help to remove the emotional aspects.

But, on the other hand, I think it's fair to remove some steels from the running, either because of their innate limitations or because none of the good makers who can work wonders with everyday steel use it.

What's a Wootz?

 

[tiger_blade]

Very True. I've experienced this kind of steel on my hand in Japan in a fancy restaurant (a little far from Tokyo) while I was on a buisness trip. The sword is exceptionally feels light on the hand and superb quality beyound your expectation. I got 1000V shock when I heard the price if it ever get's sold - USD89,000.00. That was the price offered to the owner. He will not sell as inherited from his family. It's still on display. Can't remember the damn name of the restaurant (it was six years ago). I'll try to find out.

Tamahagane, which is steel best katana's are forged is quite exceptional steel and is procedure of several day non-stop working. Japanese iron ore has always been low grade and contained alot impurity. European and Swedish iron ore particularly was superior in all aspects.

In order to come around inferior steel, japanese during centuries formed way making excellent steel for low quality iron ore... Still, if European sword would make sameway using European iron ore, would sword resulted be superior compeared to tamahagane katana.

However considering that his procedure is centuries old it makes you respect greatly japanese sword smiths of Feudal Era japanese. It requires great inguinity to make exceptional steel like tamahagane in medieval times to overcome poor quality ore.

 

[petah]

Ugh, I lost faith in humanity reading this thread.



I'd take a old worn out, 300 year old Katana over a Custom shop Busse Sword anyday.

I'd rather buy a Matt Lamey chopper or a Jason Knight or Burt foster etc... over the best super steel blade from a production company... Performance is not the be all end all.

 

[tiger_blade]

Yes, Mike I agree we have perfected the process of finding pure steel with very little impurities but we fundamentally forgot the basic foundation of building a knife. As now a days, we see more failures of High Grade knives made out of very cutting edge steels that has practically no impurities. But, basic knife making process still not applied which man started the process thousands of years ago. Only handful of knife maker does that nowadays who have acquired that knowledge from generation to generation. We are using technology to find the purest steel to make great knife but forgot to use the method of making knife that's been taught generation after generation. We are just looking for a shortcut. Instead of perfecting the process of finding the perfect steel, we should concentrate on the process of building great knives. Man made great knives many ages ago using ordinary carbon steel without much processing of the iron core. So, we should concentrate more on the process of knife making instead of materials it will be made out of. That is the fundamental of blade.

I don't understand what you are trying to convey?



I do agree with your point about the knifemaker being more important then the steel used.

And I always try to teach that heat treatment and edge geometry are as important as metallurgy.

But if you are trying to tell me that old school hand forged steels are somehow superior to modern double/triple vacuum smelted or particle steels, I'm not buying it.

The lack of impurities and refined grain structure of these modern steels are a leap forward, the ability to add additional alloying elements is icing on the cake.

Does this make the knifemakers job less important?

Of course not!



Big Mike

 

[tiger_blade]

Oh...I understand your point entirely, thejammpa. Their steel technology was astounding even in today's terms.

What I'm not following is whether tiger-blade thinks tamahagane is the "perfect" knife steel or not.

Yes, marcinek. You can call that steel to be the perfect knife steel. But, you've to understand that steel was not born, it's been made by great knifemakers with thousands of years of experince aquired from generation to generation. Steel like that can not be mass produced or duplicated in large quantities. It has to come from those people who spent their lifetime making it. By the way tamahagane means Jewel-steel. I was told by a friend that Hitachi people tried to make Japanese sword steel in mass quantity to get a monopoly market share in knife industry but they failed.

 

[tiger_blade]

Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could take the best of both worlds and have a knife that's been fold forged with CPM M4 tool steel and given the same differential heat treat with extreme hardness of HRC 64 at the edge and HRC 40 near the spine? That would be quite the knife with quite a price tag too I would imagine.

Or perhaps the "best" would be a thin layer of diamond sandwiched between H1 Steel.

I would call it THE BLADE OF THE GODS

 

[Noctis3880]

Price and availability is the issue here.

 

[tiger_blade]

some of you are seriously dense. he was saying that the japanese understood it wasn't the metal, it was the passion. they took average [at best] steel and made it great with their passion and ingenuity.

he says the perfect steel isn't some supersteel, but rather the extension of the knife maker's soul which is a finely crafted blade. that is the perfect steel

THANKS SpartanSaint. It's not just the Japanese but also some old fashioned knife makers here too who understands this.:thumbup: