The Gunting Knife: A Review

Joined
Dec 19, 2000
Messages
19
I am writing to compliment, Guro Bram Frank,
for the development of a superior, innovative
self defense tool, the Gunting Knife. I have had the opportunity to view four video tapes by Guro Frank on his Gunting Knife and i decided to wait before posting a review of the tapes, until I had an opportunity to work with the knife, which occured, yesterday.

The Gunting Knife, operates as advertised in the promo literature and on the video tapes by Guro Frank. It is superior, in usage to
pocket sticks, kubatons, flashlights, balisongs and other folding knives for the self defense situations that it was intended to be used in.

The Gunting Knife is designed to used closed
position, 80 - 90% of the time that it is utilized. There is not another knife on the market that has that has this sort of design capability! The gunting has impact, locking and cutting capabilities. The handle angles, ramps and horns are fully functional and meet their designed intentions.

For those people who have FMAs and JKD backgrounds, who are familiar with the gunting techniques that are part of those arts the Gunting Knife will fit right into your arsenal of empty hand techniques. If you have already been trained in the use of the pocket stick, the transition to the Gunting will be quite smooth. The surprise will be found in the additional mechanical advantage that you will gain in your locking
manuevers on the hands and wrists. You have never had this good!

From the perspective of the empty hand gunting manuever with the outside to inside parry and inside to outside strikes to the
muscles and/or nerve points on the inside of the opponete's arm... your impacts just got stronger and more precise, while your opponent's chances of shrugging off the hit
just got diminished one hundredfold!! In fact, your opponent's natural, reflexive retraction, may pull his arm away from you, toward his center line, before you fan engage a second strike to the insid eof his arm!
The Gunting Knife, make the old adage 'steel defeats flesh', come alive with new meaning.

This is a powerful tool to add to your arsenal of tricks and tactics. I am not telling that it beats the hell out of everything else on the market, but I telling you that it significantly increases your power and ability to defend yourself without
resorting to going to a lethal action level.
And that was one of Guro Frank's design criteria in developing the Gunting Knife.
He wanted a tool that could defeat and stop an assailant, with out putting that person in extreme, life threating jepordy.

A unique feature of the Gunting Knife, is the ability of the user to open the knife, using the energy and limbs of the opponent. This is called *kinetic opening*. As your oppponent, strikes and you angle awy to begin your counter-attack, you can open the Gunting blade by pressing the ramp of the blade against the opponent's arm and using a small arcing motion, around the arm.

Guro Frank, has taken this action still further, by developing the concept of "bio-mechincal cutting". This means that if you are in a serious injury-life threatening situation and you need to use the blade of the Gunting, then you cut the extenders and retractor muscles of the upper and.or lower arm, to imobilize the assailant's arm. If the assailant's are has been immobilized, it cuts down the number of options for him use to continue the confrontation.

This is a very innovative tool ans self defense concept. It is certinly worth your consideration and investigation.

I would strongly recommend that you buy a copy of the tapes put out by Guro Frank. The Gunting is not just another knife and if you are going to use it, you need to know how to train with it safely. The tapes are designed to give you that information.

In addition I would add that you need to buy a copy of the red-handed Drone. This is the training knife, that was developed by Guro Frank to accompany the live blade. It is virtually impossible to train with live
blade. Someone is going to get nicked or cut! The 'kinetic opening' feature of the Gunting, makes using the Drone an absolute necessity, in order to train safely, to avoid those nicks and cuts.

The drone mechanism is identical to the live blade. The diference is in the red colored handle and the non-edge of the Drane. The live blade handle is colored black, this elimiating any doubts about which blade is being used in the training.

The instructional videos:
"The Gunting: by Bram Frank, Volumes 1 - 3"
are excellent in terms of quality and content. These videos are done with instruction as the primary consideration. There is none of the "I want you to impress the hell out of you..." metality present.
Guro Frank, enlists the help and support of a number of people, all of who are in the inital learning phase of using the Gunting.
This very helpful and encouraging.

There is also a fourth video that is avalible
under the title;
"Spyderco presents: The Gunting by Bram Frank".

This video is also an introdction to the Gunting Blade is a Spyderco promotional, but again it is instructive and very useful. I can not stress enough the advantages that one will gain from purchasing the tapes and Drones for training with the Gunting Knife.
The Gunting is a great innovative tools and it is easy to use, once you become familiar with it's parts.

The one thing that Guro Frank and Spyderco needs to add to their package material that comes with the Gunting live blade or Drone is
a description of the key parts of the knife.
The ramp and horns, in particular, need to be distingushed. Beyond that point, I am convinced that the Gunting Knife is an excellent tool for self defense and I strongly recommend that you seriously consider checking it out, particularly, if
you carry a folding knife for fun and self protection.

------------------
Professor B.
Jerome Barber, Ed.D.
 
Sorry Folks, I forgot to give you address
for the videos:

You can contact George Denson at 1-800-340-9664 for the prices and other
details regardig the four videos. You can also vist their web site at

<www.videos4selfdefense.com>

ProfessorB
 
I don't get it...is everyone in the world actually convinced that this knife is all that? The very concept of it confuses the hell out of me. I mean the idea is neat and all...but, it looks like a toy that is gonna get someone killed. And no, I'm not talking about the bad guy.

just my 2 cents

J-MAN
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by J-MAN:
I don't get it...is everyone in the world actually convinced that this knife is all that? The very concept of it confuses the hell out of me. I mean the idea is neat and all...but, it looks like a toy that is gonna get someone killed. And no, I'm not talking about the bad guy.

just my 2 cents

J-MAN
</font>

Hey, J-MAN,

Thanks for your 2 cents! Yes, the knife is that good. The concept will be confusing at first to many people, but there numerous others, who have the resoponsibility and legal liability to use less than lethal force against some people who are potentially dangerous and uncooperative people. Police officers in some jurisdictions use the kubaton as an aid in their arresting/ handcuffing procedures... the Gunting is a superior tool for that purpose.

The gentleman who was able to get the trainers that we used and from which I built the review that you responded to is a police officer. One other person at the training session is a police officers. He was equally impressed and wants his own Gunting trainer.
The tool works! It is the only good knife in production and it will not replace every other knife in use, but it is very good for the design intent that it was developed to perform. If one does not try to make the Gunting do "everything", it will serve them well.

Be forewarned, to learn to use the Gunting takes time and practice; to learn to use well and with confidence takes even more time and More Practice. Be sure to get the red handled training Drone for practice. Get at least one of Guro Frank's training tapes, then the confusion will be eliminated over time and training. You will find where and when You can make the Gunting work for You.
It is only a tool, not a fix-all!




------------------
Professor B.
Jerome Barber, Ed.D.
 
"there numerous others, who have the resoponsibility and legal liability to use less than lethal force against some people who are potentially dangerous and uncooperative people. Police officers in some jurisdictions use the kubaton as an aid in their arresting/ handcuffing procedures... the Gunting is a superior tool for that purpose."

A knife is not a pocket stick, whether it's open or not. You're still pulling a knife on somone. Your raising the level of force just by doing that, even if it isn't open. If somone pulls a knife on me in any capacity I'm goign to assume it's a him or me situation, and I'll do everything in my power to make sure it's not me (assuming running isn't an option here).

By a similar logic is it ok for a cop to pull out a gun and start pistol whipping somone?

"The gentleman who was able to get the trainers that we used and from which I built the review that you responded to is a police officer. One other person at the training session is a police officers. He was equally impressed and wants his own Gunting trainer."

Actually, here is a question for you. Why buy the trainer when it costs just as much as the real thing? Why not just get one of the real ones and put electric tape on the edge(s)? At $150 this is not an inexpensive knife...or maybe I'm just cheep.

"Be forewarned, to learn to use the Gunting takes time and practice; to learn to use well and with confidence takes even more time and More Practice"

1) All the cops I have traind with were able to dedicate no more than 2 days a week to self-defense training, so if that's the target demographic I think the concept is all wrong. Only "screwy martial arts hobbiests" (wifes term , not mine) have that time luxury.

2) If it takes exquisite timing or fine motor skills to work it probably won't work anywhere but the dojo.

just my 2 cents

J-MAN
 
I think the gunting knife idea is interesting enough that I will be forking over the dough to attend a two day seminar in Vancouver.

That said, the continuous commentary about Bram Frank 'developing', 'discovering' or 'bringing out' his 'bio-mechanical cutting' is a lot of hoo-haa (that's a technical term for 'Don't believe the hype').

I have been involved in the Filipino martial arts for 20 years. The first concept I was taught, in the first class I took, was 'defanging the snake'. This is Filipino terminology for striking the attacking limb. If you had a stick you busted it up, if you were empty hands you went for the 'gunting' nerve and muscle strikes. If you had a knife you cut the muscles and tendons to render the arm useless.

I have been doing and teaching these techniques for 20 years. They have been called 'Defanging the snake', 'limb destruction' and 'destruction on contact'. If you want some proof, check out the Panther Production Balisong video tapes from 1986. In the fighting/self-defense portion of the tapes you will see 'bio-mechanical cutting'/'defanging the snake' demonstrated in great detail, with explanations of why you are doing it and what is happening to the attackers limbs.

I have nothing against Guro Frank. He is doing a great job of bringing out lots of self-defense info and thinking outside the box to come up with new ideas like the gunting knife. I do think it is somewhat insulting to all the great Filipino masters of the past, who willingly shared their knowledge with new generations of students, for people to assume this is some new 'discovery' or 'development'.

[This message has been edited by PROTECTOR (edited 02-19-2001).]
 
Originally posted by PROTECTOR:
I think the gunting knife idea is interesting enough that I will be forking over the dough to attend a two day seminar in Vancouver.

JB: Good. The best way is to judge for yourself. Recommendations are good, but the real question is: can this (whatever it may be) work for me?

That said, the continuous commentary about Bram Frank 'developing', 'discovering' or 'bringing out' his 'bio-mechanical cutting' is a lot of hoo-haa (that's a technical term for 'Don't believe the hype').

JB: OK, so what is wrong with that? There is very little that is truely new in the world of martial arts. Please do not assume that I was born yesterday... actually, my birth was the day before and quite early in the morning!

I have been involved in the Filipino martial arts for 20 years. The first concept I was taught, in the first class I took, was 'defanging the snake'. This is Filipino terminology for striking the attacking limb. If you had a stick you busted it up, if you were empty hands you went for the 'gunting' nerve and muscle strikes. If you had a knife you cut the muscles and tendons to render the arm useless.

JB: So you have been in this game just about as long as I have - 18 years. Yeah, I have seen and practiced defanging the snake, but
the idea of bio-mechnical cutting goes beyond
just doing the physio-mechanical actions, it also intended to explain, why the cuts are made and what will happen if the cuts are deep and sure. Guro Frank, is not denying oor ignoring the "defang the snake" idea, he
is elaborating on it and showing us why it can be extremely effective if needed.

I have been doing and teaching these techniques for 20 years. They have been called 'Defanging the snake', 'limb destruction' and 'destruction on contact'. If you want some proof, check out the Panther Production Balisong video tapes from 1986. In the fighting/self-defense portion of the tapes you will see 'bio-mechanical cutting'/'defanging the snake' demonstrated in great detail, with explanations of why you are doing it and what is happening to the attackers limbs.

JB: I do not need to see the Panther videos.
I fully understand the concept of defanging or limb destructions, which is the term that I learned first, then came defanging the snake. As I said earlier, not much is new.

I have nothing against Guro Frank. He is doing a great job of bringing out lots of self-defense info and thinking outside the box to come up with new ideas like the gunting knife. I do think it is somewhat insulting to all the great Filipino masters of the past, who willingly shared their knowledge with new generations of students, for people to assume this is some new 'discovery' or 'development'.

Please try to put this into perspective.
How many students, getting into the FMAs within the last 10 years are aware of the older masters within the U.S., let alone those who never came here from PI?

You have been at this for 20 years, but have you studied with people from Norther Luzon
or from Mindanao? Just how varied is your own background and knowledge of the FMAs?
Guro Frank, is very aware of the debt that he owes to the old masters and he does not try to present himself as another other than an instructor who has been helped along the way by some very gracious instructors.

I happen to like and I am comfortable with the Gunting Knife. It opens a number of possibilities that the pocket stick and kubaton can not match. On the other hand, I would never require a student of mine to use that knife, even as a training tool. I have a strong preference for the kubaton, but I also believe that I have to acknowledge the value and effectiveness of the Gunting; particularly, when its use is consistant with the general applications of FMAs self defense movements.


------------------
Professor B.
Jerome Barber, Ed.D.
 
J-MAN, I have neither the time nor the interest in convincing you about the use and
effectiveness of the Gunting Knife. You have your mind made up, as I read your comments and that is fine with me. I do know several police officers who train 4 to 6 hours a week on their empty hand techniques and they spend their own money to buy ammo and shoot at least 50 rounds once a month with their duty gun! We all have our priorities. You point has been made, I accept your perspective, please accept the fact that I have a different point of view. The two officers who I train with are excited about the Gunting and they intend to include it in their "package of tools".

ProfessorB
Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

------ Original Reply Follows ----------
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by J-MAN:
"there numerous others, who have the resoponsibility and legal liability to use less than lethal force against some people who are potentially dangerous and uncooperative people. Police officers in some jurisdictions use the kubaton as an aid in their arresting/ handcuffing procedures... the Gunting is a superior tool for that purpose."

A knife is not a pocket stick, whether it's open or not. You're still pulling a knife on somone. Your raising the level of force just by doing that, even if it isn't open. If somone pulls a knife on me in any capacity I'm goign to assume it's a him or me situation, and I'll do everything in my power to make sure it's not me (assuming running isn't an option here).

By a similar logic is it ok for a cop to pull out a gun and start pistol whipping somone?

"The gentleman who was able to get the trainers that we used and from which I built the review that you responded to is a police officer. One other person at the training session is a police officers. He was equally impressed and wants his own Gunting trainer."

Actually, here is a question for you. Why buy the trainer when it costs just as much as the real thing? Why not just get one of the real ones and put electric tape on the edge(s)? At $150 this is not an inexpensive knife...or maybe I'm just cheep.

"Be forewarned, to learn to use the Gunting takes time and practice; to learn to use well and with confidence takes even more time and More Practice"

1) All the cops I have traind with were able to dedicate no more than 2 days a week to self-defense training, so if that's the target demographic I think the concept is all wrong. Only "screwy martial arts hobbiests" (wifes term , not mine) have that time luxury.

2) If it takes exquisite timing or fine motor skills to work it probably won't work anywhere but the dojo.

just my 2 cents

J-MAN
</font>

 
Prof.B
You are reaching for some pretty circular logic in your commentary. YOU make the comment that "Guro Frank has taken this action still further, by developing the concept of "bio-mechanical cutting"." YOU then add "This is a very innovative tool and self-defense concept." I haven't seen the Gunting videos, but it sure sound like YOU think he came up with these ideas and that they are 'innovative' or new.

When I point out they are not new, you then agree with me and say you have known about them for '18 years', but "the idea of bio-mechanical cutting goes beyond the physio-mechanical actions, it also intended to explain, why the cuts are made and what will happen if the cuts are deep and sure." Once again I say go to the 1986 Balisong tapes, and you will see the instructor 'go beyond the mechanical actions and explain why the cuts are made and what will happen if the cuts are deep and sure'.

I do not see how explaining why a technique is effective or explaining the medical implications of a technique or giving it a new name make you a 'discoverer' or 'developer'.

I am the Defensive Tactics Instructor for my Sheriff Department. When we teach control holds we do not call them 'koda-gaishe' or 'unicorn crushes the dragon', we refer to them as compression or extension locks or counter joint holds. Because I describe the the medical implications and use anatomical terminology does not mean I 'discovered' or 'developed' them and I am more than happy to give credit to what art they came from to any officer who cares.

You comment that "Guro Frank is very aware of the debt he owes to the old masters and he does not try to present himself as another other than an instructor who has been helped along the way by some very gracious instructors." I never said that Guro Frank is claiming these things. I have his tactical knife videos, where he discusses bio-mechanical cutting and to the best of my memory he doesn't claim to have invented it. However, in post after post by others, such as yourself, YOU seem to claim he invented, discovered or developed it.


 
Zen in the art of advertising. . .

CSSD Deja Vu

smile.gif
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by J-MAN:
Actually, here is a question for you. Why buy the trainer when it costs just as much as the real thing? Why not just get one of the real ones and put electric tape on the edge(s)? At $150 this is not an inexpensive knife...or maybe I'm just cheep.
J-MAN
</font>

Your last statement is correct, you are just cheap.

I cannot believe after all of the stuff that I and many others have posted that I have to say this right now.

DO NOT USE TAPE ON THE EDGE OF A LIVE BLADE AND CALL THAT A "TRAINER."

This has been a dangerous piece of information that has been pulled out of the closet from time to time. It will get you killed.

A good knife with pressure applied, will cut through the tape.

Let me ask you this, would you feel "safe" with a razor sharp piece of steel and the only thing between it and your brachial artery is a piece of sticky plastic?

That's how silly this is.

Even with a properly made Training Knife, you can still cause alot of damage. I know of one dulled Spyderco Endura going into someone's arm at a Seminar.

The following picture is a Trainer for the Emerson Commander made by Emerson Knives.

The two in the middle were made by Eric Remmen of the now out of business Northwest Safari, he ran the original "Clipit Survival Course." I believe it was called.

The one on the far right is one that I did myself...

These can still damage you.
View




------------------
"You are no more armed because you are wearing a pistol than you are a musician because you own a guitar." ~Jeff Cooper
And the same goes for a knife...
And, I'm a Usual Suspect.
 
Don;

You're probably right, that was a foolish thing to say and I would honestly feel very guilty if someone hurt themselves trying it. It was a type before you think situation, I guess. I mean, I've used that method before with my balisongs and I've never been cut, so it was a bad case of me extending my experience into a ralated, but not identical situation.

ProfessorB;
"J-MAN, I have neither the time nor the interest in convincing you about the use and
effectiveness of the Gunting Knife. You have your mind made up, as I read your comments and that is fine with me."

Actually, I don't have my mind made up, which is why when sombody brought this little knife up on eskrima digest the other day I started searching the net to see what the going rate was. I actually found one place selling them for as low as $114. However, I still question the methodology on how the blade is supposed to be used. In the end I will probably have to buy one and if I don't like it I'll just trade it for something else. Like I said, the idea is neat, but...

agian, just my 2 cents

J-MAN

 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by J-MAN:
Don;
I've used that method before with my balisongs and I've never been cut, so it was a bad case of me extending my experience into a ralated, but not identical situation.
</font>

Well, this was put forth for Manipulation Practice by Jeff Imada and others for learning how to Manipulate a BaliSong, not for practicing with a Partner.

Even then, you might get cut, but while applying pressure...you're going to get cut.

Cutting is about pressure. The sharpest knife can be pressed into flesh and although it might cut you, it is more of a perforation. The push or pull with pressure, that is the mechanics of a laceration.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by J-Man:
I still question the methodology on how the blade is supposed to be used. In the end I will probably have to buy one and if I don't like it I'll just trade it for something else. Like I said, the idea is neat, but...</font>


As I do. The Gunting, as per my understanding of the various writings with regard to it and many conversations and E-mails with Bram Frank, is based upon three, separate, distinct methodologies;

1. Pressure Point Striking, ala' George Dillman's Method.

2. Small Circle JuJutsu, ala' Wally Jay. Always referred to by me as Yubi Tori. Yubi Tori are finger locks, and this is one of the main applications of Kubotans, etc.

3. The edge. Cutting and thrusting.

Now, I have wrote about my skepticism as to the Dillman Method. I also don't need to hear anyone say, "Well Don, why don't you let Dillman knock you out?" That is meaningless to me. If the Physical Technology exists to tap, poke, twist or pop a nerve and knock someone out, obviously, I'm not going to involve myself in someone "screwin' with my nerves." I get enough of that from Bladeforums Members.
biggrin.gif


I remain a skeptic. A Demo is a far cry from the street in this instance. Drugs and the body's natural drugs could inhibit this method if in fact it does exist.

Dillman has had people in the Seminars who were knocked out, others who have attended have stated flat out they were not even fazed by it.

But these comments are for, "Pressure Point Knockouts" only. I am well aware that a good strike to the Ulnar or Radial Nerves or related plexus can cause dysfunction in limbs...etc. I myself have used these on the street.

Small Circle JuJutsu, Yubi Tori and related joint locking and/or crushing and breaking of same.

Of course they work! It is mechanical. You lock up the skeletal system, the person either goes with the flow or they resist and they get broken. This delves into the area of Pain Compliance Measures. My criticism being, some people are incredibly tough and/or high as a kite naturally or synthetically, and they will allow you to break their digits so they can get a knife in you or a club on you. SO...this is risky in armed encounters. You might just end up with the guy who either cannot feel the bone breaking or about to break, or one that does not care.

So, all of this leads up to escalation.

How fast can you escalate? Some things happen so fast, you will not have time to do anything but bash someone with whatever you have available. If you bash them with the pommel of a Gunting or a Kubotan, it matters not. Same with the "skull crusher" on a Cold Steel Tanto. You are in bludgeon mode. Not yet shifted gears, although those gears can and should be shifted quickly.

As for pulling a knife and you are always pulling a knife. I agree. I agree with the handgun analogy that you put forth, much to the chagrin and consternation of Bram. Heh
biggrin.gif


He is saying in closed mode, it's an Impact Tool. That's great. If you have a Concealed Carry Permit for a Handgun in the State where you reside, that will probably fly. In others, it may not.

So the controversy goes. I'm getting a Gunting Drone [Trainer] and see if I can knock my Wife out in 4 days.
eek.gif



------------------
"You are no more armed because you are wearing a pistol than you are a musician because you own a guitar." ~Jeff Cooper
And the same goes for a knife...
And, I'm a Usual Suspect.

[This message has been edited by Don Rearic (edited 02-20-2001).]
 
Protector---I've been training with Bram for many years now, when the Gunting was just a drawing on a piece of paper. You are right, Bram did not "invent" de-fanging the snake or bio-mechanical cutting. He did, however "invent" the Gunting, (not the move, the knife) Knife fighting in general is an ancient art. There are drawings in the pyramids of ancient Egypt depicting stick/knife fighting arts. Nobody really knows who the first man was that came up with this stuff. Bram is however, bringing this valuable information to the public, and teaching more people about it. Many people have never heard of these types of cutting methods before. Believe me, it was not Bram's intention to ever insult you or anyone else. I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm sure you a very knowledgable instructor.

J-man---yes, the Gunting "looks" very scary. All blades are deadly. Steele cuts flesh, no exceptions. The blade, any blade should be treated with caution and respect. Don Rearic is quite right about the tape. I know people who have tried that. Needless to say they were cut. Don did a very good job explaining the many functions of the Gunting. Another feature of the Gunting that sets it apart from all other knives, is that it can very effectively be used in a closed position. It was designed that way. The Kinetic opening sets it apart as well. You can easily switch from closed to open position with this kinetic opening fluidly. You really must check out a video, it will answer many of your questions about the Gunting.

Jody

------------------
Keep your chins up and your blades sharp!
 
I think that the Gunting design is innovative. However I do not think that the Gunting is going to be everyone's cup of tea. The Gunting will feel very comfortable to some and uncomfortable to others. It is really a matter of personal preference rather than right and wrong. If someone prefers to carry a Gunting, then that is their thing and they can't really be criticized for doing so. If someone is willing to put the time and effort to utilize Gunting techniques then that knife will no doubt become effective for them. On the same note someone cannot be criticized for deciding not to carry a Gunting or train in its use. Just because someone does not carry a Gunting does not mean they are not on the "cutting edge".

There are some legal and moral questions as to when is the right time to use the Gunting in a closed position. We have to deal with questions revolving around the disparity of force, the continium of force, mutual participation in a fight and self-defense.
When do you have the right to use closed Gunting techniques on an unarmed person? If I were to pull out the Gunting against an unarmed person and use a closed technique, have I just escalated the fight by pulling out a potential lethal weapon? Legally the only time you have the right to pull a knife is when your life is in immediate danger (and morally as far as I am concerned). Is the Gunting in a closed position, classified as a knife or an impact weapon? There is a difference between mutual participation and self-defense. If you and the opponent are both mutually participating (i.e. both at fault) can you pull the Gunting and attempt to use closed techniques if you are losing?
There are an infinite number of questions like these that could be brought up before, during and after the conflict. I would be interested to know if there have been any self-defense cases involving the Gunting that went to court.

Spyderco produces quality knives and the Gunting is a quality knife. It is a good folder to carry even if you don't plan on using closed techniques. We live in a society where the law makers have deemed it unlawful for citizens to carry concealed superior firepower (i.e. pistols, billy clubs, telescoping batons, large knives and sword canes). We as citizens are often forced legally to carry small knives for self-defense. That said, I do not consider tactical folders, folding knives and small fixed blade knives as fighting "knives". They are knives that you can fight with but they cannot be delegated the term "fighting knife". A true fighting knife is a large fixed blade that is designed for combat. The Gunting as a knife is not a "fighting knife", however its additional features can make it much more effective than a regular tactical folder.

I have seen some of the Gunting instructional videos and thought parts of the video good and parts were not so well done. The part on pressure point knockouts was not that well done. I'm not sold on pressure knockouts either. I believe in striking pressure point or nerves to stun and I have used such strikes while I worked as a mental health administrator in hospitals and prisons.
 
I have referred to folding knives before in this manner and I shall say it again...

Folding Knives are "Oh Sh*t Devices." Or OSDs.
biggrin.gif


Do a search for that term typed that way, you will probably find it in this very forum.

Some others have picked it up, there is some truth to it.

Just like a Handgun is indeed lethal and effective, but as some have said in the past, it remains to me and many others as a "piece of sh*t you use to fight your way to a shotgun or a rifle."

I believe these things, and I know that sometimes out of convenience and the want to have something on us at all times, that we must make exceptions to logic or "conventional wisdom."

------------------
"You are no more armed because you are wearing a pistol than you are a musician because you own a guitar." ~Jeff Cooper
And the same goes for a knife...
And, I'm a Usual Suspect.
 
Hi guys/Jody,

I've been carrying the Gunting for several months now full time, 24/7/365 (on & off duty, except in the shower, but that's another thread)
wink.gif
LOL

A few observations:

- the best functional training drone out there, period.
-great lock. simple and strong.
-an extremely versatile/effective impact and control tool. It shines in many ways and has far more advantages than disadvantages when used in the closed mode. For overall features/performance, I would choose it over any other impact/control tool out there. (even over my JSP Koppo keychain
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(or an ASP baton)
-it's more control tool than knife. It's been designed and patented as such. Time will tell if the courts hold the same view, but having it in writing along with the training program helps. For those that are concerned about the liability of the live blade, get the CRMIPT or Drone and just use it as an impact/control tool. As for the concept of using the tool closed being viewed as "pulling a knife", at least here in Canada a weapon is anything that can be used to harm another. Is using a kubotan, lethal force? It can be. Can a single unarmed man be a deadly threat? Yup. I believe intent must present to really make a good case against a defender. Remember that the BG's are the ones that determine what level of force will be used to repel their assault. If the BG's have any sort of weapon you should be cutting or shooting anyway. If a single unarmed BG attacks and I only have my Polkowski Scorpion, as soon as it's drawn it's cutting time. With the Gunting, I have other options.
-closed, no one will know what you used to strike with until the deed is done. Do not show the BG a closed Gunting to disuade him from attacking. This would give him the opportunity to reformulate his plan or, as has been said, escalate.
-firearm retention applications are enhanced greatly with the Gunting
-the Gunting uses Gross Motor Skills and very simple applications in it's usage. The KISS principle at work. You can pick up the four most valuable closed gunting applications in about 30 seconds. Really.
-A mutual fight is definitely NOT what the Gunting is about. However if someone was in a mutual fight to start, but began to lose and was about to get head stomped or curbed, he would be justified in using a weapon to defend his life. He would just be stupid for putting himself in that spot needlessly in the first place.
-I agree with those that did not like the Pressure Point Knockouts. I respect the knowledge of the individuals involved, but wonder how many knockdown-dragouts they've seen or been involved with.
-the Gunting is NOT a fighting knife. Bram would be the first to agree. I think everyone here would go with bigger steel (bowie), handgun (Glock, 1911 or for Don, SIG
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) or long gun (shotgun/ AR-15) as a primary defensive tool if given the option.
-I'm not going to post my Resume, but I will say that in hundreds of street altercations that I have been involved with in one way or another, the Gunting/CRMIPT would have been a welcome addition on several occasions. It also would have helped end a few altercations with better outcomes for all involved.
-You definitely have to try it out for yourself, because it's not for everyone.


My $1.50 Canadian
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(around $0.98 after the exchange rate)
 
You don't have any keys hangin' off that Gunting Basher though do ya?

My reasoning in putting a key carrying ability and pushing that concept on James Piorek via The Koppo Stick turned Keychain was simple.

We always tell women to have their keys in their hand when they exit home, office or store...so why not have something there with which to bash?

So, many go with a Kubotan. OK, that's cool, hell, I have carried one since about 1987, all of my adult life and then some. I will be 33 in August, do the math.
biggrin.gif


But the Koppo type of stick won't get knocked out of your hands like a Kubotan might.

And having your keys in your hand when you are going in and out of places is not just good advice for women, it is for men too.

You can also grab onto clothing, hair or flesh and use open handed strikes with a Koppo type of stick...something you can only do with the butt of a Kubotan and you could never grab someone, meaning Manhandling. with a Kubotan...

So, in many respects, the Koppo takes the place of Kelly Worden's DTL Kerambit if you so desire in that...you can use it in tandem with a knife if the situation permits...

That is regardless of what knife you are carrying...

Now, what if you have a Gunting? Eh?

BIG GUNTING CRITIC!
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No...this is all about tools, if the Gunting floats your boat, so be it. I have a Drone coming and I'll work with it since I basically know the application anyway...

So, you can't go chugging through the Wal-Mart Parking Lot with a Gunting in your grasp...especially down here where Off Duty Police are usually Wal-Mart Security.

So, you have it in your jacket pocket! Strongside. You have a Koppo in your weak side jacket pocket. Baddabing! You're in business, you have two things with which to beat the snot out of someone that jumps you.

The Military calls the practice of such things, Immediate Action Drills, and you should too...IAD.

Gunting?

What does Gunting mean?

There are several different definitions!

A Gunting can be a nerve strike, it can also be a crossada movement, a scissoring movement where the offending body part is pressed into your weapon to multiply force. In cutting especially but works good for bashing as well as everyone knows.

So, what is better than having two weapons on both points of contact?

You have the Koppo, a piece of Titanium, blasting into one side and whatever part of whatever knife you are carrying into the other side.

You have the ability to double hit in a rolling fashion, which has been seen in Filipino Arts, Japanese Bujinkan and others where the limb is struck twice, very fast then you go to head, neck, body, whatever.

So the possibilities become endless, but you always have the keys in your hand, and in that respect, the Koppo with Keys becomes a way to first strike above and beyond ANY knife you have in your pocket...

Yee haw.

------------------
"You are no more armed because you are wearing a pistol than you are a musician because you own a guitar." ~Jeff Cooper
And the same goes for a knife...
And, I'm a Usual Suspect.

[This message has been edited by Don Rearic (edited 02-21-2001).]
 
Originally posted by PROTECTOR:
Prof.B
You are reaching for some pretty circular logic in your commentary. YOU make the comment that "Guro Frank has taken this action still further, by developing the concept of "bio-mechanical cutting"." YOU then add "This is a very innovative tool and self-defense concept." I haven't seen the Gunting videos, but it sure sound like YOU think he came up with these ideas and that they are 'innovative' or new.

JB: I do not agree with your comment about circular logic. I also believe that what Bram Frank, did was develop a very innovative knife design and employ several methods of usage, blunt striking, joint locking and cutting. He Did Not invent any of those methods of usage and i never implied that he did! You have chosen to read that into what I wrote. My discussion was and is about the instrument abd How It Was Designed To Be Used.

When I point out they are not new, you then agree with me and say you have known about them for '18 years', but "the idea of bio-mechanical cutting goes beyond the physio-mechanical actions, it also intended to explain, why the cuts are made and what will happen if the cuts are deep and sure."
JB: Why would I argue against a know and well established set of facts. Guro Frank, did noot invent bio-mechanical cutting! You wanted that "fact" made clear for whatever reason, and I have no difficulty agreeing with you, so where is the problem?

Once again I say go to the 1986 Balisong tapes, and you will see the instructor 'go beyond the mechanical actions and explain why the cuts are made and what will happen if the cuts are deep and sure'.

JB: And I will state it for you again... I do not need to see the video... there is no disagreement. BTW, why not post the name of the author and video title? In retrospect, I might have already seen it and if it is the one that I vaguely remember, I was not impressed, because I never purchased it! But I was younger then and I might get more out of it now... then again, maybe not.

I do not see how explaining why a technique is effective or explaining the medical implications of a technique or giving it a new name make you a 'discoverer' or 'developer'.

JB: You are pushing this point much too hard. What is your objective here?

I am the Defensive Tactics Instructor for my Sheriff Department. When we teach control holds we do not call them 'koda-gaishe' or 'unicorn crushes the dragon', we refer to them as compression or extension locks or counter joint holds. Because I describe the the medical implications and use anatomical terminology does not mean I 'discovered' or 'developed' them and I am more than happy to give credit to what art they came from to any officer who cares.

JB: And it seems to me that you have just violated the spirit of your own intent. You
have ignored where these techniques came from
and who first named them!!! Now please do not get all bent out of shape, because actually I do not care what you call the techniques that you are teaching. I have given English terminologies to most of the things that I teach, simply to reduce the
amount of material to be learned to make the
name fit into what is already familiar to my students. I teach self defense not an "art"
so maintaining an artistic tradition is not a
priority for me. There are enough martial arts traditionalists in my area to keep the old name and ways alive.

You comment that "Guro Frank is very aware of the debt he owes to the old masters and he does not try to present himself as another other than an instructor who has been helped along the way by some very gracious instructors." I never said that Guro Frank is claiming these things. I have his tactical knife videos, where he discusses bio-mechanical cutting and to the best of my memory he doesn't claim to have invented it. However, in post after post by others, such as yourself, YOU seem to claim he invented, discovered or developed it.

JB: I thik that you are over reacting to what I wrote. I have been discussing the Gunting, which is very innovative. In order to explain why i consider the Gunting to very innovative, I also have to explain how it can be used. To do that, I have to mention, locking, striking and cutting. The major point that Guro Frank makes and reinforces
is that his method uses the bio-mechanical cutting concepts. He is adamently opposed to
thrusts and cuts to the torso. His goal is disable an opponent, if necessary, and avoid the use of potentially lethal force. The "Gunting Knife System" (my phrase) was developed around the idea of avoiding the need to inflict potentially deadly injuries.
Locking and blunt instrument striking are much easier to defend in a court of law. Having the capacity to 'raise the bar', if necessary, and resort to the bio-mechanical cutting of the extemities is more difficult to defend in court, but certinly much easier to explain than the taking os another person's life. There is already too much of that happening right now.

I would also suggest that I could refer you to at least two recent videos on the use of the knife, where the goal is to terminate the opponent. I could refer you to a couple of kenpo videos where the "defender" is armed with double sticks or double knives and the opponent is empty handed - where is the concept of self defense in those situations?
My support of Guro Frank, is based on the total package of ideas, surrounding the Gunting. That is where the innovation has comes from - the instrument!

BTW, you did not respond to my earlier question:

You have been at this for 20 years, but have you studied with people from Northern Luzon or from Mindanao? Just how varied is your
own background and knowledge of the FMAs?

I have asked that question, because I have
reason to believe that you are a devotee of
a Visayan-style FMA, several of which are
commonly taught on the West Coast. A number of players from those styles seem to hold the point of view that the terminologies and ideas of their styles are the only correct
ways to get things done within the FMAs.

Just curious about your background.


------------------
Professor B.
Jerome Barber, Ed.D.
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ProfessorB:
He is adamently opposed to
thrusts and cuts to the torso. His goal is disable an opponent, if necessary, and avoid the use of potentially lethal force. The "Gunting Knife System" (my phrase) was developed around the idea of avoiding the need to inflict potentially deadly injuries.

I have to inject something here, sometimes the injection is painful and other times not. Think of this as "CyberMorphine."

Please allow me to make a few points about the Gunting and the Methodology behind it.

1. I have no comment whatsoever on "The Dillman Method" of pressure point striking. Other than what I have already stated.

2. Wally Jay's Small Circle JJ, including Yubi Tori, shine with a Gunting, if you choose to play that way.

3. For using as a bludgeon, an "Impact Tool," the Gunting was designed to do that. It will perform that task very well.

4. Not cutting and thrusting to the body to avoid potentially life threatening, i.e., fatal injuries...

As a SYSTEM, yes. As a KNIFE, no. I will explain why after your next quote I shall put forth.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">...the bio-mechanical cutting of the extemities is more difficult to defend in court, but certinly much easier to explain than the taking os another person's life. There is already too much of that happening right now...</font>

This is your personal opinion and nothing else.

Bio-Mechanically cutting is still maiming and disabling, and that can actually be looked on as a heavier charge.

As for "there is too much killing going on," that is again, your personal opinion and you are entitled to it. Please, however, don't confuse facts with personally held beliefs or belief systems.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I would also suggest that I could refer you to at least two recent videos on the use of the knife, where the goal is to terminate the opponent.</font>

Which two videos are you speaking of? And...so what?

I have read and viewed Bram Frank's Material. All of it? Well, I have no idea if I have viewed all of it or not...I do know this however.

You know what I have a distinct problem with? I have a very distinct, vehement opposition to the idea and opinion that;

1. It is more Court-friendly, i.e. "legal," to maim or disable someone than it is to take their life.

2. The promotion of "Bio-Mechanical Cutting" or anything resembling that as being:
a. Less than lethal.
b. Non-lethal.

This is painful to me, every time I take the time to deliberately explain this, it is ignored. It has the tendency to make me not want to compose anything, anymore on this subject.

If you cut someone in the manner that is promoted, "Bio-Mechanically," there is a great chance that person will expire.

It makes me wonder if anyone else has actually watched the video material Bram Frank has put forth, and if they have watched it, do they understand precisely what is going on with all of the various, "Bio-Mechanically" inclined measures taught and promoted as an alternative to, killing the attacker.

Do you think that substantial hemorrhage only takes place when one, "goes to the body" or neck?

I would have to involve myself in the willing suspension of disbelief in order to agree with that.

Some of the cuts advocated on Bram's videos would cause tremendous blood loss and I mean in seconds. This is why I have no problem with it really.

What I have a problem with is someone saying this is not "likely" or has less "potential" for a fatality.

This is simply, medically, incredible.

It relies on a very shaky idea that arteries and veins do not run parallel with the muscles and tendons that are the primary targets in any form of "Bio-Mechanical Cutting."

No one can accurately predict at what rate blood loss will lead to exsanguination of the subject.

It has to do with weight, size, adrenaline, synthetic drug or alcohol intake...how "worked up" the person is. What their psychological make-up is. No Medical Professional that I have ever spoken with could accurately give me a "Timetable" to unconsciousness or death due to hemorrhage.

Yet, we know that the physical, structural targets that are of primary importance in "Bio-Mechanical Cutting" run with the blood vessels...

In Bram's video material, we see the ante cubita fossa, for example, being cut through, the inside of the elbow joint. This will disable if the cut is good.

It will also sever the brachial artery and vein.

What I have been able to gather from the aforementioned Medical Professionals is, best case scenario with no clotting or pressure applied, this person has about 15 minutes maximum to go before they go unconscious or expire.

This depends on many different things, as I stated before. This is but one cut in many multiple cut scenarios that is espoused...the Medical Personnel I have spoken with also said in certain instances, that "15 minute" figure could dwindle to 9 minutes.

Does anyone reading this that would be a critic of what I am now writing have any idea of the cumulative effect of being cut not once in this targeted area, but say, the wrist on entry, then this target, then going low and taking either the side or the back of the knee? The blood pressure will be greater there as well.

How on Earth can arteries and veins be so casually discarded? They run with the muscles and tendons...wake up...HELLO!

How can cumulative blood loss due to cuts in multiple areas be casually disregarded?

I don't know, you tell me, I'm interested.

People have survived gunshot wounds to the heart as well as knife wounds.

You can survive with both lungs punctured, it has happened. It is not exactly rare.

Now, take a cut across the face with a 1.0 to 1.5 inch "Utility Knife," as it was described in the Calibre Press video "Surviving Edged Weapons" by the Police Officer that was cut...who spent what he described as, "a couple weeks on advanced life support and almost died from loss of blood..."

Can you understand where I am coming from and my utter frustration at debating this topic at times?

Every time something like this is stated as some sort of "fact," I cringe.

Any time, any time you cut on someone, there is a potential for a fatality because like it or not, all information to the contrary from Bram Frank or any other source, blood loss can be fatal and, knives [edged weapons, tools, whatever] are inherently lethal weapons.

The great idea is, someone pulls down on you and threatens your life, you cut them and they exit, terrified.

What if you have to cut them a couple times?

How about a few?

You see? Am I losing my Communication Skills or what?



[This message has been edited by Don Rearic (edited 02-21-2001).]
 
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