The Gunting Knife: A Review

I remember on one of the Gunting videos, it was said that if the arm/hand is cut and the aggressor is disarmed then it would be legally and morally wrong to go for the killshot. This kind of philosophical pondering is subjective and will be left to the citizen actually having to defend his life to decide.

If you can get a disarm great, but don't look for it. It will either happen or it won't. Training heavily or exclusivly for the idea of getting a disarm can be limiting if not dangerous. If someone programs his mind to disarm...disarm...disarm and the disarm doesn't come, the mind can go into shock and ponder "Why did I not get the disarm?"

I have seen this kind of shock plenty of times with police, prison guards and orderlies who train heavily in the use locks and holds who then try to apply them to psychotics. These locks and holds work fine on a passive cooperative partners. Come time to apply these locks and holds to a psycho or drugged up individual, these locks don't work to well. I have seen orderlies and police go into a brief state shock as their locks and holds failed to control an aggressor. They were taught that these locks and holds were fail safe and would always work. You are what you think. Their mind and nervous system went into a brief state of shock when the locks did not work, they did not know how to continue the conflict after their "fail safe" moves didn't work. As their minds searched the brain for another move to apply, they were grabbed by their aggressor, thrown across the room or stomped on.

I think the same logic applies to disarms. If you train heavily on non-lethal force with a knife and expect to be able to apply that non-lethal force everytime in a conflict, you are programming yourself for possible failure. Disarming is not a fail safe method and should not be taught as such.
 
PBPC,

Your comments are accurate, it is a mental hesitation, and it can kill you.

What I am trying to put forth is the radical idea, at least given the amount that my words are ignored or glossed over or casually thrown on the heap...I have to assume that it is now "radical," that a knife is still a lethal weapon.

I mean, what are we saying here?
You can cut someone to the bone three times and this is less lethal than three thrusts?

Both cutting and thrusting carry with them the potential for lethality. You can survive multiple thrusts to the chest, there have even been instances of people surviving having the trachea and a carotid artery and/or jugular vein severed on one side. I'm sure the surgery was involved...

Likewise, there have been people who have expired from being cut in other areas.

A couple of years ago in Aberdeen, Maryland, a burglar more or less "killed himself" because as he was entering or exiting a plate glass window he shattered, he severed the muscle in his bicep and the brachial artery. They found him on the highway.

Here, we are not talking about one cut...we are talking about multiple, deep cuts and slashes to sever these muscle groups and/or tendons...and the arteries and veins are in there.

This would be a deliberate attack, not a plate glass window. So, I can only assume the results would be even more horrendous.


 
For me, biomechanical cutting is not "less than lethal" cutting, but how to maximize the stopping potential of a small blade. If you're cuttin', you better be in a lethal force situation, or the courts will give you a rough ride.

A thrust to the throat or chest may eventually be lethal, but probably won't stop the fight immediately.

If you sever a hamstring or glute, however, you get an immediate response. Just watch an NFL linebacker crumple during a hamstring pull. These are guys that are "in the zone" as far as a combat mindset, but drop when their structure is impaired.

Don, I agree that the Koppo keychain is great, but I don't have keys in my hand every waking hour of my day. The Gunting is always on my belt/pocket and is quicker to access than the koppo (even if tucked in the waistband) (the koppo cost the same as the Gunting as well, but that is another thread
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)

I know this is BladeForums, but what about the taking of cutting out of the equation and going with the Drone or CRMIPT alone? What standing does it have just as an impact/control tool?

Steve
 
ProfessorB.: Why are you posting this in the Tactical forums? There is a forum called "Knife Reviews and Testing" under the "General" topic for knife reviews. Since you stated that this is a review in the topic heading, it belongs there rather than here.

This just looks like advertising disguised as a discussion topic. JRF.

 
Protector wrote:

I have been doing and teaching these techniques for 20 years. They have been called 'Defanging the snake', 'limb destruction' and 'destruction on contact'. If you want some proof, check out the Panther Production Balisong video tapes from 1986. In the fighting/self-defense portion of the tapes you will see 'bio-mechanical cutting'/'defanging the snake' demonstrated in great detail, with explanations of why you are doing it and what is happening to the attackers limbs.

JB: I just borrowed a Panther Production tape
entitled "Mastering the Balisong - V.3".
This is the tape that I remember viewing some
time ago and not being very imprerssed with the content. It was copyrighted in 1986.
The details of my concerns are not relevent here, we can discuss that privately, if you wish. What I will say here is that they narrator **Did Not** mention the term bio-mechanical cutting or anything close to that terminology. Since I have not seen volumes 1 & 2 of that series, I can not say that the narrator did not use the term at all in series. But I am curious, did Scott Brennan or David Miller, coin the phrase in 1986?



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Professor B.
Jerome Barber, Ed.D.
 
JRF,

I don't have any problem at all with a review of a knife that is geared towards blade arts...be it the Gunting or the new Polkowski/Kasper FB coming out from CRK&T.

Perhaps it would have been better if it were cross-posted. I don't have a problem with it at all.

Gives people in here a "Head's Up" that might not go over there if you know what I mean.

Steve,

Dude, my keys are in my hands when I move from building to building...house to car, car to house, car to store, etc., whenever possible.

If I come over to your house, I put them back in my pocket though! But before you answer the door, if you have hedges, they'll probably be in my hand...somewhat benign.

As for the cost...EGAD, we have to boycott UPS or get them better smoke. (Private Joke, consult JSP Forum).

My prediction rings true. A volume written with segments directly refuting a portion of the review, with no response other than an ongoing dissertation as to the relevancy or irrelevancy of the term "Bio-Mechanical" or as to who coined it first.

Unless of course, that counter-post is being composed as we speak...

The point is to engage, request information in an intelligent response, instead...

(crickets chirping)

Interesting...

------------------
"You are no more armed because you are wearing a pistol than you are a musician because you own a guitar." ~Jeff Cooper
And the same goes for a knife...
And, I'm a Usual Suspect.
 
Don: I understand and see your point. It just seems that it has been "reviewed" already several times in a number of threads over the last months. I would hate to see this forum turn into an ongoing Gunting commercial like CSSD was becoming before its demise. I guess that is my concern. JRF.


[This message has been edited by jrf (edited 02-21-2001).]
 
J,

And I would be a liar if I said that I did not share your concern and it won't turn into an "infomercial" here either.

This is the line I walk.

I want to be fair to everyone. As you can see in this Thread, there is not a whole lot of "reality" being discussed but it is borderline propaganda.

The Gunting, Spyderco and Bram Frank are welcome here as the FMA, as well as Wally Jay's Small Circle JJ, all are things I respect.

Now, this Thread is a review? If so, then all the people who have a Gunting and want to review it positive or negative are more than welcome to come here and make this Thread 1,000 posts long if they so desire. They have a voice.

The voice does not extend to deluging this venue with multiple posts about the same damned thing over and over and over again. Which I think is your concern...

I think what alot of people do not realize is, I speak to Bram on a regular basis, and we vehemently disagree on some things, we did tonight as we discussed this Thread.

That's just life. What I wrote in this Thread is how I see it and I see no one offering up a counterpoint to it.

I think there are various word games being played here, and as I stated, "the willing suspension of disbelief."

Where is the counter to the medical reality? There is none, it does not exist.

Instead, we have someone chasing "Protector" around as to his background in the FMA and who coined the phrase "Bio-Mechanical Cutting," and to me, that is Penn & Teller, smoke & mirrors.

I'm not interested in that.

I'm not interested in deflection and ad hominem garbage...

What I am interested in is the utter disregard people have for blood vessels that lie along the same paths as muscles and tendons...as well as everything else I posted.

I discussed this at length with Bram, I'm not satisfied with the answers received. So be it.

I will never accept it as Medical or Legal fact that cuts to the insides, and remember, that is what is going to control gripping ability more than anything, of the forearms and upper arm, as "non-lethal" or "less than lethal."

Perhaps a cut across the triceps area is not in the same category, although "Bio-Mechanically" it will impair or eliminate the ability to push the arm out to get to you, that is, after all, what triceps do.

Even a deep cut there is going to bleed like a bastard.

I see blood vessels being blatantly ignored as if they do not exist.

I see cumulative bleeding being ignored as if it does not exist.

These things cannot be ignored, nor can a knife or any application of it be considered "less than lethal" or "non lethal."

I have heard about the ability of arteries to "self-seal," that is very true, they can. Even though an artery has pressure, a clot can still form...

My counter to that immediately is, lungs can do this as well, that does not make a thrust to the lung a "less than lethal" or "non lethal" strike.

You can live with one kidney, you can live with one lung. You can live with either 1/3 or 2/3 of your liver if I am not mistaken...your liver also has the power to grow back a certain percentage of what was lost, again, if I am not mistaken. That does not mean they are less than lethal or whatever...

Do people see what I am saying? The arms and legs are seen as primaries and almost disregarded for potential lethality...well, why not the rest?

Why not just have the heart and the brain as the lethal targets and everything else as being less lethal.

What bothers me is when people simply disregard or do not respond to documented cases, one of which I cited in that excellent video by Calibre Press...

You see...it destroys the credibility of the Poster to a certain degree when they are either arrogant or unwilling to answer.

I'm not picking on Jerome. This is a Forum, he made the statements, I didn't, if he does not want to answer them and instead finds it more interesting to search out what "Protector's" ideas are on the FMA through his Teacher's eyes, or to debate who coined this or that phrase, that is cool too.

But then, what he places in here, that I wish to debate, or anyone else wishes to debate, rings hollow.

It is not a challenge, I want a piece of reality.

I'm sorry, right now I don't see it, I see someone who makes feel good, altruistic statements about "too much killing going on," and I believe that, right there, in and of itself, is what is driving this madness about "non-lethal" or "less than lethal" application of an edged weapon.

I will mince no words, I hardly ever do, you know that J.

There is far too much killing going on in the world, and unfortunately for us, we are the ones who are way too often the ones being killed and the bad get a free pass to work evil over and over again.

So, Don's Theory of Relativity then becomes, there are too many good people being victimized in many ways, some of which end up with their untimely demise.

There are not enough bad people being treated in a like manner.

Think, Ted Bundy killed upwards of 36 women. What if one of them early on would have killed him? No escapes, no plea bargains, no politics, no "science" parading as fact...how many could have been saved?

I think all too often, we get caught up in legalities and then we have two warring factions;

1. If you do that, you're going to prison.

2. I'd rather be Judged by 12 than carried by 6.

OK...we can play that for a moment.

You have to be able to survive the encounter to get to the Jury, yeah?

Everything can go right, and you can be 100% within the law, you go to prison for the rest of your life anyway...

This is straying a bit, but when I see consideration given to people who cross lines and victimize people, it makes my blood boil.

And, I'm not into the willing suspension of disbelief, if I want that, I will promptly suspend my disbelief and go see a movie.



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"You are no more armed because you are wearing a pistol than you are a musician because you own a guitar." ~Jeff Cooper
And the same goes for a knife...
And, I'm a Usual Suspect.
 
Don,Nice post : )
About Bio mechanical cutting it has its place, will it do the job? I will let you know when I use it..Will I use it against a aggresive attacker looking to take me out for my personal things NO! Will I try it againist a A--hole drunk who dosnt know what he is doing with that beer bottle I give it a shot.If he or her is not looking to kill me just thinks that he is going to try to put a hurting on me what a great time to try it out...The other option is easy killing is a givin its try to not kill with a blade is the hard part that (my opinion)takes true skill..well whatever, I just felt like posting!!
Peace
 
BTW,If you do use Bio cutting and you dont want to kill the guy better be sure there is a hospital near,because to be so accurate not to severe a artery or vein does take good skill combat is in motion no one is going to let you cut them perfecttly across the bicep or deltoid enough to stop them not cutting anything major!Again true skill is a must I hope i can reach that some day to stop someone with my blades and not kill them.
Then again there are many facts of housewives stabbing thier hubbies multiple times and the hubby lives,again these women and men are unskilled and they seemed to stop there attackers(husbands,wives)well somtimes..But somtimes they do the old knife in the skull I am sure plenty of people saw that on The learning channel,Thats what I called Bio mechanical cutting! LOL : )
 
The knife is an effective weapon for what it is designed for and that is lethal encounters. The knife is limited to that capacity, lethal encounters.

The same goes with the handgun. I have come across many people who intend to wound their attackers with their handgun and not kill them. When I here this, I give them a reality check. The handgun is a lethal weapon, when you pull a gun on an unjust aggressor, you do so with the intentions of killing them not wounding them.

The only "non-lethal" capacity that a knife or gun has are their deterence effect. Pulling these weapon can be a good deterence to a criminal attacker. If the criminal is deterred he will disenagage and that will end the conflict. The criminal was deterred because by the defender brandishing a "lethal" weapon i.e. knife or gun. The knife and gun are good deterents because they are lethal weapons.

The reasonable use of force dictates that I may use what ever force that is necessary to spare my life from an unjust criminal attacker that is trying to kill me or a family member. This means I can use lethal force. If someone has lethal intentions on me, and I can't escape, I am going to pull a knife or gun with the intention of using lethal force to defend myself. Repelling lethal force with lethal force. If I happen to stop the attacker by wounding him and not killing him...all the better...But that is an "if". I'm not going to be aiming to wound, I'm going for the killshot which is what a knife or a gun are designed to do...kill.


 
I agree 100% that the gun and knife are for lethal/potentially lethal encounters.

However, if my intent was to kill, I would train to place an anchor round in the BG once he's down. We shoot to stop. Yes, a gunshot to the upper chest, head or hip girdle is serious and very possibly fatal, and are the most viable targets with a firearm. Once the attack is stopped, hopefully we stop shooting.

With the blade, I think most of us would keep cutting until the threat was gone as well. Is not the cutting of structural components of the body a more efficient way of getting a response? I personally observed a BG get gutted 20 feet from me during a drug deal gone bad. He still ran around for 20 minutes before going to the hospital. He never lost conciousness or even sat down. He even wanted to refuse medical treatment. This colors my thinking on the subject of Bio-mech cutting.

Steve

Don,

BTW, no bushes, but to get to my front door you have to walk down a "fatal funnel". I could meet you outside instead if you prefer.
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I'll buy dinner if you ever make it out to Vancouver.

 
Talk about Bio mechanical cutting and Hmmm not working ...well what about the women that was swiming in the carribean waters when a shark bit her leg clean off and she didnt know it untill she tried standing up!Now it worked she cant stand anymore but she didnt know about it (true story)...Makes you think how a little cut might work against someone trying to do you damage..Worse if he or her is on drugs etc....

[This message has been edited by Holymoly (edited 02-22-2001).]
 
But then again everybody is different what might not work on one man or woman might work on someone else.So everything has its place.I feel if you dont wish to kill your aggressor do what your trained in use bio mechanical cutting,if it stops him without killing him great job done! I feel just be prepared to finish if you must!

[This message has been edited by Holymoly (edited 02-22-2001).]
 
Lemme get this straight...

A conscious woman has her leg bitten off by a shark, presumably in salt water, and doesn't KNOW it until she tries to stand on it? I call baloney on that. Is there documentation of this online anywhere?

Sounds like urban legend to me. I mean, I can believe she knew she was badly bitten but in denial about it being missing or something, but that's different.
 
There are plenty of varied opinions about the use of the Gunting (or any other knife for that matter) to achieve "Bio-Mechanical" cutting. I personally don't agree with the less than lethal faction, although it might give the BG a little more time to recieve first aid in certain instances.

I have however, in reading through all of these posts, watching Bram's tapes and playing with my Gunting come up with an idea that I am going to have to check out. Has anyone given any thought to using the Gunting not as a knife, but strictly as a control device? By this I don't mean the trainer drone (which you still might try to open and use without thinking), I mean making up a "closed" version in steel with G-10 (probably rough finish)handle slabs. This version will have NO blade and will thereby act as a control tool, ala kubaton, kermabit, etc. I think that everyone agrees that the Gunting has merit as a control tool, and I see much merit for it in LEO work. Instead of wrestling with a BG and trying to apply finger locks, joint locks, etc. with bare hands, it is easier to apply a lock using a control tool.

I am going to put one together this weekend. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't, but we shall see.

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C.O.'s-"It takes balls to work behind the walls "


[This message has been edited by Jailhack (edited 02-22-2001).]
 
Jailhack,

Perhaps you should drop the gist of your post in the Spyderco Forum with the idea of having a "locked closed" feature added to the CRIMPT version of The Gunting...might be more acceptable to LEO and CO Administrators as well.

Well,

The Postman never rings twice around here, I meet them when I am expecting something, lest' the neighborhood cretins get anything good from the Mailbox or Porch.
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Yes, The Gunting Drone has arrived...

First impression out of the box?

This is one incredibly ugly, homely looking device. The Wife agreed when she saw it...immediate, ugly recognition...

Second impression?

The knife is absolutely built like a tank.

The knife is rock-solid out of the box...the action is silky smooth as I remembered it in Atlanta last June...and the lock has every indicator of being just as rock solid as the overall construction of the Drone.

The lock engagement is excellent. The release of same is effortless and excellent.

The grip is like an old friend. For all of the ugliness of this knife, it is beautiful in the hand. It locks in there where you want it. Solid.

Being a knife User instead of a Collector, I tend to flip things. The first thing is what impressed me in Atlanta.

The "Spoon" pocket clip is again, pretty gnarly looking but has lines that match the knife.

The hollowed out area in the pocket clip that makes it a "spoon," is mated perfectly to the opposite side of the knife where the G10 has an indentation, a divet if you will, for reversing this knife from forward to reverse grip and back again.

And...back again. Very important if you desire to play that way. It is quick, smooth and does not slip. Going from forward to reverse or back.

We are talking about a controlled spin here and nothing haphazard.

Now, the infamous "Cigarette Twirl" ala' James Keating, which has a tendency to produce point whereas the Controlled spin produces edge, that is very sure as well. I know how to do it and do it well, Don's Jury is just out at the moment as to the stability of the Cigarette Twirl. I know some pretty intricate Japanese Knife Manipulations as well and practice them regularly as well...

The HUMP

Uglier than sin. But...but...very effective. I don't buy knives because they are pretty anyway...this knife has "YUK" spelled all over it to my eyes, but so does a Glock or a SigSauer handgun when compared to a finely engraved Smith & Wesson handgun.

It does not take a Rocket Scientist to figure out that with the pommel or the Hump on this knife, that you would be able to gain release from many holds by a "Digging & Shaking" maneuver common in Japanese JuJutsu, or a "Shake & Break."

The Emerson Commander, which is my Primary Carry Folder has the Wave for Rapid Opening, and I use this small Wave in instances like this and have used this during training with the Commander Trainer as well. And the Pommel.

You bury the pommel of almost any knife in the back of the hand and using one or preferably both hands if possible, apply the maximum amount of pressure instantly and give it a vigorous shake... you will break all but the most obstinate attacker's holds, and yes, with this particular knife, your movement and response will be focused and concentrated to that end. This is standard fare with Kubotan, Yawara or Koppo, or with any folder opened or closed in this type of situation.

Very good stuff...

It is painfully obvious if you pinion someone's finger on either side of the Hump, the curved pommel or the horns on the lock-side of the knife, if they are going to go at all, they will go when you use these locking and pinch points of the knife.

The opening is smooth using the hole or the Kinetic Opener, the Ramp or Hump. The Kinetic Opener can be manually activated and is a sure opening device.

What about Kinetic Openings? Well, I have to try it out later on someone moving...but all indications are as they were in Atlanta, the knife opens smoothly against my legs and arm. As advertised, intended and designed.

Overall, it is a very impressive piece to say the least with alot of thought put into it. I think my Wife is in love with the Drone itself, and she might end up packing the Live Version.

The only things I would change have been discussed before by many.

[1]I would like to have the maximum amount of blade that the grip would allow to be stowed in it. I know the arguments and whatnot regarding this, where do you want me to cut you with an "X" length blade, blah blah blah...that makes me snore. I don't want to be cut anywhere with any length blade.

[2]Subdue the pocket clip instead of this bright, flashy chrome, fine on a Trainer, I would prefer to have it subdued for the Live Version.

[3]Make the knife sit a little lower in the pocket, yes, again, I know the rationale behind concealment vs. open, I just disagree with it. I'm also aware the Ramp might impede draw, but I think that could be worked out so at least the knife sat a tad bit lower in the pocket.

The following is just a suggestion.

What about a blade with a slight Hawkbill curvature to it? Seems to fit more in line with intended application anyway as there are precious few insertions using the point in Bram's System anyway, you would have an immediate increase in control, like the Civilian, Matriarch and Harpy, but would not have to take the curvature to that degree. Cutting power would drastically increase if this was executed properly and would make the knife cut much deeper than you would think for its' size.

Comments?

------------------
"You are no more armed because you are wearing a pistol than you are a musician because you own a guitar." ~Jeff Cooper
And the same goes for a knife...
And, I'm a Usual Suspect.
 
Don,

For the sake of your sanity
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I wanted to make a post addressing your, IMO, very valid point about the potential lethality of severed vessels in the limbs.

I know one thing from experience (and related experience with others) as a bowhunter about bodies being cut with sharp blades, and that is, you can't always be sure what is going to happen when blade meets x or y. Many animals have gone down for the count from hits in the legs that nicked an artery. And incidently, AYMAK, many hunter's have gone down similarly when they tried to split the aitch bone on an animal and stupidly drove the blade into their own femoral. So I think your argument is sound, cutting wounds to the limb can certainly be lethal.

Conversly wounds to the torso/neck can be non-fatal. I have always had a pet-peeve with hunters who take neck shots becasue I have seen it produce crippling wounds, and a clean kill is a big issue with me. Similarly I have seen abdomen and thoractic hits come up empty. They may have been eventually fatal but not evidently.

So I see your point as 100% valid. You can't say limb applications will not be fatal but neck/torso ones will be.

In the near future I hope to be a lot more knowledgable about this subject, so I might have more to say, but I have a couple of questions in my mind. Does Bram really purport that limb cutting is not likely to be lethal or is he approaching it from the issue of lesser intent?

The other question has to do with the "suspension of disbelief". Having been an LEO, I can attest that much of what we do and train prety much demands a serious "suspension of disbelief"
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. I think others who have posted here will recognize that. I will say honestly that it is one of the reasons I left LE to find a new career. This suspension is not by preference, but is part of the "rules of the game". In short, they suck, but they exist. I feel much less constraint on my actions in terms of self-defense now that I am a civilian. That's not to say I have "crossed over to the darkside" but I don't have a job on the line anymore and it do make a difference.
This is one hell of a long prefice for a question but I wonder if some of Bram's thinking RE the Gunting is within the confines of the above mentioned "rules of the game"? You have talked with him, so I thought you might know.
My, as yet, uninformed take on "biocutting" would be in terms of fight stopping potential. I have always leaned heavily towards the idea of "shut it down NOW!" when it comes to self-defense. I also like the idea of one tool which to some degree, can span the entire force continuum form "hands on" techniques to fully lethal, but as I've said before I like SAK's too!
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Si Vis Pacern Parabellum
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi
 
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