The Gunting Knife: A Review

Crecy,

I have read at least two Interviews of Bowhunters who were hit themselves by other Bowhunters, by accident. Both in the right butt cheek. I want to say that I have read a third one, and that was a gutshot, but I simply cannot remember. Time fogs the memory.

I do distinctly remember one being shot as he sat on a stump, being cold outside, he just thought his butt went to sleep and his right leg. He looked down and the ground was red.

This might have been a combination of the numbing effects of the cold, as well as rapid hemorrhage.

I say this just as more info being thrown into the mix as to the felt pain of cuts. Some people feel nothing and with others, it hurts like hell. It depends on precisely where you get hit, the sharpness and speed of the weapon. The thought of being hit by any bow or a crossbow with a field tip is not appealing, the thought of being hit by a set of Thunderheads is really frightening.

As for deer hunting experience being valid in this discussion, I think it is. The Eastern Whitetail Deer is approaching man size. Valid more for firearms defense than for knives possibly. A broadhead is going to cut very, very fast indeed. Nature of the weapon.

------------------
"You are no more armed because you are wearing a pistol than you are a musician because you own a guitar." ~Jeff Cooper
And the same goes for a knife...
And, I'm a Usual Suspect.
 
Don,

I have heard people mention the "Crimpt", but what is it exactly?

Chondor,

Thanks for the link, but I don't want rubber handles, and their version has no clip. I intend to make it almost identical to the Gunting, with a couple of changes, like placing the clip higher (which in turn will cause me to alter the dimple locations), and probably more of a pointy butt end.

Also, does anyone know who sells the breakaway sheath that Bram uses in his videos?

------------------
C.O.'s-"It takes balls to work behind the walls "
 
The CRIMPT is a Gunting like the drone with blue handle Dull blade but a regular ramp like on the black g-10 and has sharp horns,so it is used just as a impact tool..
The sheaths you can get from skunkworks...
(509)534-6113
 
Go off line for a few days and things get crazy!

My entries to this thread has already gotten too flamy for my tastes, so I will keep this short and to the point.

ProfB, Jody and other Bram supporters, I have no problem with the Gunting knife. It is an innovative idea that Bram brought into existence by sheer force of will. I have no problem with Guro Frank. His videos, articles and posts on this forum have all been interesting and informative. As to the actual theory of Gunting use, I will wait until I have had a seminar with Guro Frank and held the knife, to say anything.

What I thought I made clear was, I am talking about the comments by people, such as yourself ProfB, that Bram somehow invented or developed 'bio-mechanical cutting'. In everything I have seen or read Bram does not claim this, but posters such as yourself do. I just wanted to make it clear to newbies that this is a reasonably universal FMA principle, that has been around awhile.

The great thing about the forums is we can agree to disagree and we obviously do....However, ProfB. my comments have been directed at you, yet all of your responses are written like you think you are Bram's spokeman or Bram himself. So I will repeat one last time I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST BRAM FRANK OR THE GUNTING KNIFE! I just think it would be nice in future post about 'bio-mechanical cutting' that we at least refer to it as a 'refinement of traditional FMA techniques'.

Don, I agree with everything you had say! Great stuff. I will let you know how the Gunting Seminar turns out. I am truly looking forward to attending.
 
I agree, I don't think Bram presents himself as the "Creator" of "Bio-Mechanical" anything, although it could be argued that he invented that particular term.

I also think that he is able to teach the concepts better than alot of people. Did he juice some of it up and name some things? Yeah, maybe so.

We talk a bit. I don't think that he wants it put out there that he "invented defanging the snake." As a matter of fact, I know he does not.

I do believe that he puts it in a format that makes some of the concepts of disarming, literally, into a better understood format.

------------------
"You are no more armed because you are wearing a pistol than you are a musician because you own a guitar." ~Jeff Cooper
And the same goes for a knife...
And, I'm a Usual Suspect.
 
Professor B:

Despite your near identical review posted on Practical Tactical you recieved only one response from (what a surprise!) Jody. "Great Review."

Now leaving aside the issue of possibly pre- arranged Q and A's from "THE CHORUS" --Which might have had something to do with the closing of CSSD--

How did Don put it?---- 'Infomercial'?

We note that the responses in THIS forum are well over 40...

Perhaps because FMA folks have heard the term

"DE-FANGING THE SNAKE" before. . .

You make a big deal that Brennan and Miller in their 86 video did not coin the term 'bio-mechanichal cutting'. Fair enough.

Now, would you be good enough to answer in a specific and detailed manner the following question:


What is the difference between de-fanging the snake and bio-mechanichal cutting?




[This message has been edited by J_Ringo (edited 02-23-2001).]
 
Ringo,

Well, maybe I can answer that as it appears that J.B. has jumped ship on us, so to speak.

Since I have reviewed the video and written materials with regard to it, and been the sad recipient of Bram's Trainers in the past, I can tell you that it is a bit different from commonly taught "Defanging" if you will.

I will say that I have not seen the muscles and tendons so focused upon as I have by Bram.

You see it in here, in the various debates and my own as well.

Bram is sort of giggling in the background as I can be horribly critical and still like and agree with some of the things he says...

There are two basic targets with a knife, if we can agree on that, then we can damn near agree on anything thrown our way.

1. Structural Targets. Muscles and Tendons.

2. Vascular Targets, arteries and veins, as well as just plain flesh. When flesh gets opened, it bleeds, that's the rule, regardless of artery or vein being hit. That bleeding can be cumulative as I have stated before...massive cuts not involving arteries and veins can still lead to shock and death.

A long time ago, in the mid-to-late 1980s, I bought a book called, "Ninja Knife Fighting," a Paladin Press Book by Dr. R. Kelly Hill. The only thing I took away from the book was the Anatomy and Target Selection portion. It was great.

What I see Bram doing is taking a concept like "Defanging the snake" and placing it in a pan, and then he boils it down to where it is concentrated.

It is also intricately intertwined with Wally Jay's Small Circle JuJutsu. You cut this and the arm will react this way and then you can do this.

I sit back and I read alot of what is being written on these subjects, as well as The Gunting, and I try to wade through this mess and simply put out there what I personally believe is fact and what I feel is conjecture or smoke and mirrors.

Some say this is a "less than lethal" alternative, and I say given the evidence we have, medically speaking, it is a roll of the dice. Some people have survived massive hemorrhage, some have not. So I see nothing "potentially less lethal" about Bio-Mechanical Cutting.

As I stated before, we could find cases of people with multiple thrusts to the chest that have survived, neck injuries, etc., that should not be used as "evidence" that these target areas or the attacks used against them are "non-lethal, less-than-lethal," or whatever other term anyone wishes to use.

My point, throughout this whole Thread and in many others is, all cutting, no matter if you think it is "slight," carries with it the potential for death of the attacker, and not the other way around.

I don't know if this is the answer you were looking for or not.

What concerns me is various statements made, and again, Bram is well aware of the way I think on these issues, about drawing knives that are not knives because they are not open...

Bio-Mechanical Cutting is Less than Lethal, or anything like that.

Or the idea that you can send someone first to a Trauma and Vascular Surgeon, then next to an Orthopedic Surgeon and somehow, some way, this is more "legally justifiable" than the other alternatives.

I just don't believe that, never have and quite likely I never will.

------------------
"You are no more armed because you are wearing a pistol than you are a musician because you own a guitar." ~Jeff Cooper
And the same goes for a knife...
And, I'm a Usual Suspect.
 
Someone wanted to know what CRIMPT means.....CRIMPT means Close Range Medium ImPact Tool.
 
Originally posted by PROTECTOR:
Go off line for a few days and things get crazy!

JB: I can relate to that situation. I had a number of things that I have to put first, so I am not disappointed when someone does not reply immediately. This is a past-time not a living.

My entries to this thread has already gotten too flamy for my tastes, so I will keep this short and to the point.

JB: I really did not consider them flamy, but, each of us makes those determinations for themselves. I rather enjoyed the exchange and you raise a couple of good points, that I have taken under consideration.

ProfB, Jody and other Bram supporters, I have no problem with the Gunting knife. It is an innovative idea that Bram brought into existence by sheer force of will. I have no problem with Guro Frank. His videos, articles and posts on this forum have all been interesting and informative. As to the actual theory of Gunting use, I will wait until I have had a seminar with Guro Frank and held the knife, to say anything.

JB: A reasonable position to take. I held off on writing anything about the Gunting Knife, until I had an opportunity to actually work with it and determine if I could use it.

What I thought I made clear was, I am talking about the comments by people, such as yourself ProfB, that Bram somehow invented or developed 'bio-mechanical cutting'.

JB: As I stated before, you have read too much into my statement. I was putting the knife and the conceptual techniques together, as they were intended and demonstrated on the video set, made by Guro Frank. It is difficult to seperate the two since the knife was envisioned and designed to meet these
particular uses, impact striking, joint and digit locking and bio-mechanical cutting. It is extremely difficult to talk about the knife alone.

In everything I have seen or read Bram does not claim this, but posters such as yourself do. I just wanted to make it clear to newbies that this is a reasonably universal FMA principle, that has been around awhile.

You made that point more than once. Why is it necessary to go over the same ground in every post, even after I concede that you have a valid point? In addition, I never said that I repeating anything that Guro Frank, might have said. I wrote the review
and I alone am responsible for any errors or omissions.

JB: I am also glad that you used the phrase
"reasonable universal FMA FMA principle",
because the concept and expression of "defanging the snake" is not found in every system or style of FMAs. It is a popular concept, because of the publications of Guro Dan Inosanto, but there are regions of the Philippines where that idea is not used.

The great thing about the forums is we can agree to disagree and we obviously do....However, ProfB. my comments have been directed at you, yet all of your responses are written like you think you are Bram's spokeman or Bram himself.

JB: I wrote the review, I alone, am responsible for the written statements and I have answered you as I felt it were necessary to make my points clearer and answer your comments. I am not a spokesman for Guro Frank, nor am I Guro Frank. I can not take ant responsibility for how you choose to read my comments. I am speaking for myself and without any input from any other person.

So I will repeat one last time I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST BRAM FRANK OR THE GUNTING KNIFE! I just think it would be nice in future post about 'bio-mechanical cutting' that we at least refer to it as a 'refinement of traditional FMA techniques'.

JB: I have to state that I do not see the concept of bio-mechcanical cutting as a refinement of "traditional FMAs techniques".
You have assumed that what you know and may use is found in at least in the vast majority of FMAs systems. I have not found this to be the case. "Defanging the snake" is a Visayan concept and expression, but it is not part of three other FMAs systems I have have studied.
Does that mean that "defenging the snake" is wrong? Certinly not! It is a valid and useful concept, but it is not universal.
Hence, my question to you about what system/
style(s) of FMAs have you studied? I have asked this several times and there has not been a reply.

JB: I also want to add one other point and then I am finished with this thread. I have never met or studied with Guro Bram Frank.
I am not a student of his nor have I studied under anyone who has been associated with him. Therefore, I arrived at my decision to review his tapes and Gunting Knife as an independent, outside observer. I can not and do not speak for Guro Frank, I am not a memeber of his organization, CSSD/SD, and I had nothing to do with the development of the Gunting Knife. I have spoke to Guro Frank, by phone and we do have some differences of opinion, however, I find the Gunting Knife to be an exciting innovation, so I will state that for the record. My students *are not*
taught how to use a knife for self defense.
I teach the use of the pocket stick and the kubaton. I will teach my senior students
how to use the Gunting, because it fits into the overall philosphy that I espouse with regard to defending oneself and its use can be justified under NYS Penal Law.

JB: Three of my senior training partners are police officers, they all like the Gunting Knife. They are the people who help me to keep my perspective on the law in focus. They are aware of the differences between the statutes and the local applications of the law from the point of view of the DA's office. The intended design purpose of the Gunting Knife, including the 3" blade, makes it defensable in my county of NYS. That has helped to make it possible for me to write fovorably about this knife.

JB: Therefore I will say it again, this is a very innovative knife design. It has multiple usages, blunt force striking to bone, muscle and nerve tissue, joint locking
of wrists and fingers and a cutting function
that was designed to be used in a bio-mechanical manner (denoted in some FMA styles as "defanging the snake").

------------------
Professor B.
Jerome Barber, Ed.D.
Click to expand...
 
Don:
Man! Being a moderator must really be a drag sometimes, huh?

It would appear that far from jumping ship ProfB has locked himself on the bridge and set phasers to weird. . .

Don, I've never known you to indulge in prophesy, so I can only surmise that in the few hours (!) between the time I asked Prof B the difference between bio-mechanical cutting vs. de-fanging the snake and you answered me--what---hmm...someone called you to inform you that Prof B was bailing out, right?

I don't know if you were innocently misinformed or deliberately set up. Who called you?

meanwhile, back at the ranch--Prof B disagrees that bio-mechanical cutting is a refinement of 'de-fanging the snake'. You seemed to feel that it was, or at least, that Bram had explained de-fanging in a really cool and detailed way.

If 'no news is good news' then I assume Professor Presas is continuing to recover.

Perhaps he could review the gunting knife concept and applications, if Wally Jay is unavailable?
 
ProfessorB: Regarding the concept of "defanging the snake," please see Col. Anthony Biddle's book "Do or Die." He discusses the concept of attacking the opponent's weapon-bearing hand in the knife fighting section. This was written in the 1930s, so the concept (by whatever name) must have been around at least that long. I certainly am not claiming that he invented it though. JRF.





[This message has been edited by jrf (edited 02-27-2001).]
 
Well, I think I have made my opinion clear to those who get it...and Dad taught me not to p!ss into the wind, so I'll leave it at that.

However, I would like to offer my new training tape on Bio-Kinetic Cranial Energy Transfer. In this tape I will show you how to use the bony protuberances at the end of your appendages to stop a BG's agression without killing him. I will show you how to use the counter rotational force of your torso musculature to propel the bony protuberances at the distal end of your upper appendages into the cranial vault of an attacker. This collision will result in the massive tranfer of kinetic energy into the BG's cerebrum. The fluid shock waves created will disturb the electrical activity of the neurons, thereby causing the a disruption of signals to the nervous system, resulting in a collapse of the BG...and for those who didnt' get it, I just described a right cross to the head.
 
biggrin.gif
ROFLMAO
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by J_Ringo:
Don: Man! Being a moderator must really be a drag sometimes, huh?</font>
Click to expand...

Yes...

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">It would appear that far from jumping ship ProfB has locked himself on the bridge and set phasers to weird...</font>
Click to expand...

Yes, and it is time for Scotty to beam us up, because even if the Intelligent Life exists, it surely is an Arrogant Life Form.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Don, I've never known you to indulge in prophesy, so I can only surmise that in the few hours (!) between the time I asked Prof B the difference between bio-mechanical cutting vs. de-fanging the snake and you answered me--what---hmm...someone called you to inform you that Prof B was bailing out, right?</font>
Click to expand...

No one called me to inform me of that. I'm scratching my head. Bram does call, and we talk about Cuban Coffee and Compression Locks.
biggrin.gif
Not necessarily about this, if that is what you mean. I do also believe there was a Shooter on The Grassy Knoll though.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I don't know if you were innocently misinformed or deliberately set up. Who called you?</font>
Click to expand...

No one called with regard to this at all.

How was I "set-up?" He made statements, I countered them, he won't answer. Even if he did now, I don't care anyway. I think people like this, regardless of alphabets behind their name are dense.

I'm in Baltimore quite a bit. I see the excellent, highly intelligent Surgeons from Maryland's Shock Trauma Unit walking across Greene Street and Lombard Street without a care in the world. They are very intelligent and have absolutely no common sense.

If you get shot or knifed, you want them standing at the table next to you, but you don't cross the street with them.
biggrin.gif


<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">meanwhile, back at the ranch--Prof B disagrees that bio-mechanical cutting is a refinement of 'de-fanging the snake'. You seemed to feel that it was, or at least, that Bram had explained de-fanging in a really cool and detailed way.</font>
Click to expand...

I cannot and will not speak for him, hell, he won't even clarify points he made...instead, delves into nonsense.

I think Bram explains it well and has added some Small Circle to it. Now, considering that Presas, Dillman and Jay "toured" together teaching, and Bram was a part of that, did he invent it? Or did he popularize it? I don't know, I was not there.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">If 'no news is good news' then I assume Professor Presas is continuing to recover.</font>
Click to expand...

I have no idea. I wish him the best though.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Perhaps he could review the gunting knife concept and applications, if Wally Jay is unavailable?</font>
Click to expand...

I still have no idea.

I don't want people to take this the wrong way, I still Moderate this Forum and I still care about it, or I would not post to it. But that has been curtailed because of various things happening around Bladeforums that I personally think are unwarranted, uncalled for, and are more indicative of a Landfill than an exchange of ideas.

I read it, but I am suffering from severe "Troll Burnout" and I have a case of "Bullsh*titis" that I cannot shake at the moment.

------------------
"You are no more armed because you are wearing a pistol than you are a musician because you own a guitar." ~Jeff Cooper
And the same goes for a knife...
And, I'm a Usual Suspect.

[This message has been edited by Don Rearic (edited 02-27-2001).]
 
"Cutting the Hand" is in most old fencing manuals. Its in Biddle's book and Styer's book. Hit the first thing coming at you; its common sense. The first human to ever to it probably didnt even think about it.

Ive seen another thread somewhere degenerate into a "wabbit-season vs duck-season" debate on whether or not the Filipino's got it from the Europeans or vice versa.... shows the genral location of martial artists on the bell curve.

I had a modern arnis instructor tell me Emphatically that the Spaniards "stole" it from the Filipinos. Why? Well.... just cuz! For him FMA is end-all be-all and it has to be true. It was impossible for him to admit the possibility that people on opposite sides of the globe can have simple ideas in common. Like wheels and clothing. It doesnt lend to the glamor and mystiqe.

Find some narcoleptic that nods off when you give him a charley-horse and you can take it on tour.

(insert your favorite P.T. Barnum quote here)
 
Universality.

Some in "Traditional Martial Arts" say the West stole things.

The "Western Martial Artists" accuse the East of the same thing.

Who accuses the Egyptians?



------------------
"You are no more armed because you are wearing a pistol than you are a musician because you own a guitar." ~Jeff Cooper
And the same goes for a knife...
And, I'm a Usual Suspect.
 
Well put Don.....

You boys need to calm down....your testosterone is showing. So you don't agree on bio-mechanical cutting. GET OVER IT!! So all of you aren't as thrilled with the Gunting as I am. OK...to each his own.

You guys are making my head spin with all the "bony protrusion" stuff. Speak slowly and with simpler terms for the dumb blonde to understand.
confused.gif
LOL. In other words, say -- I can teach you how to hit the BG in the head with your fist or elbow -- works better for me than that bony protrusion stuff.

I'm just messing with you guys. All of you have very good points and I personally always like to hear different opinions.

Keep it up...but try and keep it civil will you?


Jody

------------------
Keep your chins up and your blades sharp!
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Don Rearic:
Ringo,

Well, maybe I can answer that as it appears that J.B. has jumped ship on us, so to speak.

JB: I am sorry about your perception of jumping ship, I simply do not read the forum everyday. In addition, I think that there is a limit as to how far a thread can go and I feel that this thread had reached that limit - others may disagree... if so keep on writing as long as the moderator is content to let it happen.

Since I have reviewed the video and written materials with regard to it, and been the sad recipient of Bram's Trainers in the past, I can tell you that it is a bit different from commonly taught "Defanging" if you will.

I will say that I have not seen the muscles and tendons so focused upon as I have by Bram.

You see it in here, in the various debates and my own as well.

Bram is sort of giggling in the background as I can be horribly critical and still like and agree with some of the things he says...

There are two basic targets with a knife, if we can agree on that, then we can damn near agree on anything thrown our way.

1. Structural Targets. Muscles and Tendons.

2. Vascular Targets, arteries and veins, as well as just plain flesh. When flesh gets opened, it bleeds, that's the rule, regardless of artery or vein being hit. That bleeding can be cumulative as I have stated before...massive cuts not involving arteries and veins can still lead to shock and death.

A long time ago, in the mid-to-late 1980s, I bought a book called, "Ninja Knife Fighting," a Paladin Press Book by Dr. R. Kelly Hill. The only thing I took away from the book was the Anatomy and Target Selection portion. It was great.

What I see Bram doing is taking a concept like "Defanging the snake" and placing it in a pan, and then he boils it down to where it is concentrated.

It is also intricately intertwined with Wally Jay's Small Circle JuJutsu. You cut this and the arm will react this way and then you can do this.

I sit back and I read alot of what is being written on these subjects, as well as The Gunting, and I try to wade through this mess and simply put out there what I personally believe is fact and what I feel is conjecture or smoke and mirrors.

Some say this is a "less than lethal" alternative, and I say given the evidence we have, medically speaking, it is a roll of the dice. Some people have survived massive hemorrhage, some have not. So I see nothing "potentially less lethal" about Bio-Mechanical Cutting.

JB: It is 'less than lethal' because it leaves out the vital organs and throat as primary targets. Can someone die from being cut in a non-vital area? Certinly can? Cutting biceps and triceps is serious very business and there will be a lot of blood loss if multiple deep muscle cuts are sustained. Does the cut victim have to die
as a result? No. Can he die? Yes, if the bleeding is not surpressed and prompt medical intervention is not availible. On the other hand, stab wounds to the abodominal cavity
will very likely affect vital organs, stabs to the lower abdomen will often impact the large intestions, death may result from fecal infection rather than the actual knife stab wounds, but it is still death. The cuts to the bicep and triceps are 'less than lethal', but that also assumes that one gets fairly prompt medical aid.

JB: I have not ignored medical facts with regard to blood loss, I am simply praising a well thought out plan of defense that takes a less lethal approach when employing the knife as a tool. Is Guro Frank's approach, the only way to go? Absolutely not!! It is a matter of choice... pick what seems to make the most since to you, given your needs and training.

JB: I happen to like the Gunting and the various possibilities of usage that it offers; this is not the right tool for everyone, but I feel that it should be examined and played with before being discarded.

As I stated before, we could find cases of people with multiple thrusts to the chest that have survived, neck injuries, etc., that should not be used as "evidence" that these target areas or the attacks used against them are "non-lethal, less-than-lethal," or whatever other term anyone wishes to use.

My point, throughout this whole Thread and in many others is, all cutting, no matter if you think it is "slight," carries with it the potential for death of the attacker, and not the other way around.

I don't know if this is the answer you were looking for or not.

What concerns me is various statements made, and again, Bram is well aware of the way I think on these issues, about drawing knives that are not knives because they are not open...

Bio-Mechanical Cutting is Less than Lethal, or anything like that.

Or the idea that you can send someone first to a Trauma and Vascular Surgeon, then next to an Orthopedic Surgeon and somehow, some way, this is more "legally justifiable" than the other alternatives.

I just don't believe that, never have and quite likely I never will.
</font>
Click to expand...

JB: From some discussions that I have had with LEOs, defense lawyers and several Assistant DA (off the record), there 'more "legally justifiable" actions' within the world of criminal law and actual court cases. Of course the best court case is the one that you did not have to participate in, especially as a defendent! Civil law cases are another 'animal' all together!

So my point is that I have not bailed, I simply do not see much life left in this thread that interests me. I might not be the "brightest bulb in the pack", even with the initials behind my name, but that is my cross to bear and I will ask anyone to help me carry my own load. I have some points of disageement with several points raised by others, but, I can live with that; so in the end, I am still happy with the Gunting Knife and the program of ideas that Guro Frank, has built around it, several people made so good points that I appriciate and will utilize in my training program. As was stated elsewhere, this is a bulletin board and there will be disagreements. So, I really do not see any reason to post further on this thread
as I think the basic positions are clearly staked out and are not likely to change.


------------------
Professor B.
Jerome Barber, Ed.D.
 
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