THE Hollow Handle Knife Thread

[cricketdave]

Oh and your not getting a modern bullet out of a crimped case with a hole or a hook on a knife.

 

[Jhansenak47]

The last time I saw similar blade holes as a survival feature (in a similar quality custom whose origin I forget) they were advertised as bullet-pulling holes (to use the powder as fire-starter of course). Here the smallest of the holes seems too small for bullet pulling...

Historically they would use blackpowder to light fires. In the book Journals of Robert Rogers of the Rangers he specifically mentions using blackpowder and I've read it in a few others. They always seem to gloss over how much of a PITA it actually is to do. Blackpowder burns at a very fast rate and blows the tinder apart. Modern gunpowder is more like an explosive with the pressure wave blowing it out even if it lights. I definitely see how the idea originated in blackpowder, but gunpowder is everything that makes blackpowder difficult magnified so I understand why you might be confused. Putting holes in knife blades to pull bullets from cartridges is not a thing knife makers do/did.

Oh and your not getting a modern bullet out of a crimped case with a hole or a hook on a knife

I bet you could do it. Morons in Africa snort the powder from 762x39 and one of the ways they take the cartridges apart is by creating a fulcrum on the bullet and levering them out.

 

[TAH]

I'm guessing the holes are strictly cosmetic.

 

[Silvano Marlon]

Thank you all for the informations. All the infos and opinions are appreciated. Dialectics makes us learn more.

Regarding the knives I've commented (including that of the Brazilian knifemaker Milton Padinha who I put a photo earlier) that had a detail on the back of the blade made to remove cartridges, I think they are made more to remove the whole cartridges from the gun barrels (I believe that because people hunt in the cold weather or wearing gloves) than to separate the cartridge caps from the rest of the cartridges, although I don't doubt that this can also be done using that detail of the blade spine as well.

In this other photos below (knife by a Brazilian company named Tramontina) it is possible to see why this kind of detail was putted on the back of this 80's knives and how this it works.

Even so, definitely, the three holes in the blades of Eduardo Navarrete/Paz & Pazini's survival knives are not made to remove caps of bullets, because the biggest hole does not fit a bullet of a small caliber, and definitely the three holes are not ornamental or cosmetic because ever single details I ever seen Eduardo Navarrete putted in all his other knives (icluding other styles of knives) were really putted for functional reasons; Also because another different Brazilian handmade Knifemaker, also used to put the same three holes using the same configuration on most of his survival knives blades on the 80's. The only information I have (in the case of a single particular knife and not about all that knives) is that the holes are for handling wires, deal to metal cables and nails, But I have no idea about how to use it until this days.

Thanks a lot again to everyone.

 

[Silvano Marlon]

Still about the hole which originally causes us doubts, I remembered something that might be interesting or helpful. Aitor spanish brand (the real Aitor company) designed the 'Cuchillo de Monte' knife to the Spanish army, navy and aeronautics militarys on the 1980's with military people colaborations and tests before being adopted in 1.985. That knife was also officially adopted by military troops of Portugal, Mexico, Bolivia, Ecuador and others countries in the 80's and 90's. It has a hole in the blade, close to the guard in a very similar way the hole in the blade of the Navarrete/Paz&Pazini knife of the first photo. But once again, I can not explain the function of the holle with certainty.

Changing the subject a litle bit, now that I posted photos of a knife from the Brazilian brand Tramontina, I think it might be a good idea to present the hollow handle models of this production brand as well.

Tramontina is a company that makes knives for people of all financial levels because it sells a lot to all the Brazilian population, so manufactures from simple and cheap kitchen knives to expensive kitchen knives using noble steels and materials, simple sports knives to sports knives of materials and steels of great quality.

In 1983 Tramontina had some interesting sports knives with saws, openings on the back of the blades and a hollow handled (no survival purposes) knife. The last bottom knife in the bellow picture had a hollow handle of stailess steel coated with black synthetic material and the hollow handle could be opened by a threadable buttcap as in conventional hollow handle knives) however, that latter knife was not a knife designed for survival, but only for diving.

On hollow handle survival knives, Tramontina had 3 different knives of the Commander series:

The Commander 1 knife was created in 1984 and had the hollow handle made of Peralumal (a type of hard aluminum alloy injected under high pressure) electrostatically painted with epoxy paint and 440C steel blade and leather sheath. The first ones made didn't have bottle opener on the blade, but this was included shortly, I think it's because that bottle openers it was very typical on the multifuncional knives on the 1980s.

 

[Silvano Marlon]

Commander 2 and 3 knives were designed together in 1987. Both knives had Peralumal made handles, electrostatically painted with epoxy paint with buttcaps made of peralumal with stainless steel (to serve as a hammer/breaker), stainless steel guards and accessories, and 440A steel blades. I believe Tramontina did Commander 2 and 3 using the 440A steel because it's a more flexible steel than 440C, to make knives with large holes in the center of the blades (to made to a wire cutter pliers by joining the blade hole on the steel piece at the end of the sheath). Both had polyamide hard sheaths with a a steel clip inside to hold the blade internally.

 

[Silvano Marlon]

Commander 3 had the legally industrial copy rights acquired of Marto spanish company and his 'Explora Survival' model. The biggest differences between the spanish Explora Survival and the authorized Tramontina copy was the steel and materials used and the handle to blade jointing systems.

All 3 first Commander knives (the hollow handle ones) are out of production since about 6 years ago.

 

[gadgetgeek]

That is some really interesting info there. I can easily see someone finding the need for a case-rim grabber in the days of paper shotgun cartridges as they can swell with humidity, so while it wouldn't be a use you would have every day, if you had a gun with a weak extraction, it would certainly save you using the edge! Tramontina are far more know in North America for machetes, as it is one of the places where cheap and rugged are prized, where as they don't have the same market for survival knives. Although I've seen their steak knives and other kitchen tools in a lot of commercial kitchen catalogues.

As for holes near the handle, perhaps the designer added it so that it would be easy to secure a cord if turning the knife into an improvised spear? or possibly to act as a fulcrum point for bending wire? It could also be one of those features that someone saw, then decided, "I don't know what it does, but those guys did it, so it must have been a good idea, I'll do it too!"

 

[Jhansenak47]

Regarding the knives I've commented (including that of the Brazilian knifemaker Milton Padinha who I put a photo earlier) that had a detail on the back of the blade made to remove cartridges, I think they are made more to remove the whole cartridges from the gun barrels (I believe that because people hunt in the cold weather or wearing gloves) than to separate the cartridge caps from the rest of the cartridges, although I don't doubt that this can also be done using that detail of the blade spine as well.

Older shotgun shells were paper and can swell. I have also had a bad lot of Remington 12 gauge shells that would consistently stick. That is a cool feature, thank you for sharing that picture.

 

[JD Mandrell]

Oh lordy, if that's not a flashback!!!!

 

[Rhinoknives1]

Older shotgun shells were paper and can swell. I have also had a bad lot of Remington 12 gauge shells that would consistently stick. That is a cool feature, thank you for sharing that picture.

I remember those .12 G shells. I believe that was some coating that Remington but on the plastic shells for some reason.. ———-/————————————-

As for holes near the handle, perhaps the designer added it so that it would be easy to secure a cord if turning the knife into an improvised spear? or possibly to act as a fulcrum point for bending wire? It could also be one of those features that someone saw, then decided, "I don't know what it does, but those guys did it, so it must have been a good idea, I'll do it too!"

I concur on the hole, especially with the placement at the bottom of the Ricassio.. It has nothing to do with pulling rifle or Handgun bullets..

 

[Silvano Marlon]

Hello everyone. About the holes in the blades. I wrote an email to Leandro Pazini. Leando is an excellent knifemaker in Brazil who is the nephew of the owner of the Paz & Pazini company and his learned his handmade knifemaker profession with Eduardo Navarrete as his teacher, when Leandro was a teenager in the 80's, before Navarrete died.

I asked Leandro about the function of the holes Navarrete used to make in some of his knives and he answered me. The holes are for breaking fish spurs basically ,but it also can be used (secondly) to deal handling wires.

This pic is of a Roberto Gaeta (a different brazilian knifemaker) survival knife

Leandro replied that, Is usual there are species of fish that have spurs in Brazil and breaking these spikes spurs is necessary and for that reazon Navarrete, some other knifemakers and some production companys put this holes in the blades of fishing knives and also in some outdoor and survival knives in the 1980s. Usually, fishermen use normal pliers to break the spurs, but someone who gets lost or involved in an accident on the wild may not carryng pliers. Leando also informes that: In the 80s, resources to break fish spurs putted on fishing knives blades and general purpose outdoor knives were not unfeeling and were appreciated by fishermen, campers and other outdoor sportsmen not only in Brazil but also in South America.

About the use of this holles to deal with wires, Leandro told me that this function was secondary, but that wires of fences, often abandoned, are important resources for someone who wants to make medium and large size constructions on the wild (shelters, traps to big animals, rafts and other things) and these holes help a lot to deal with old wires, to bend ends and to twist them. I personally believe this is even more isefull in cold climates.

About the main function of the holes, I research a litle for my account about fishs that has spurs, I saw that this is a characteristic mainly of the species of Bagre fishs ('Bagre' is a general portugueze language name to several types of Catfish). About 2,200 species of these Bagre fish are known, which are classified in almost 40 families. The Bagre (Catfishs) are found almost everywhere except Antarctica, but more than half of the known species are native to South America.

The Bagre (Catfishs) is a species of fish quite common in Brazil throughout all the country, especially in freshwater but there are different types of Bagres in sea water and they exist in the most varied sizes/weights. These Bagres or Catfish have spikes (spurs) hidden in the body that are used as a fender system for predators and it is common fishermen were injured with these spikes and these accidents are usually very painful. Many types of Bagres have 4 spurs, 2 in the chest and 2 in the back. The meat of the Bagres is much appreciated. It's needed experience and maneuverability to hold and handle a Bagre (take it off the hook, hold it, clean it before cook) without any spurs spikes accidents, and usually people need to break these spurs to avoid accidents and to can deal with this fish specie with surely.

 

[TAH]

Thanks! I think we get the "point".

 

[gadgetgeek]

That is a really awesome bit of info! It makes perfect sense as far as its existence, and that its a use not really known outside of South America as much. Thanks for sharing that with us.

 

[Silvano Marlon]

Thank you for everyone for comment.

Tramontina are far more know in North America for machetes, as it is one of the places where cheap and rugged are prized, where as they don't have the same market for survival knives. Although I've seen their steak knives and other kitchen tools in a lot of commercial kitchen catalogues.

Tramontina makes different kinds of machetes, from the cheapest machetes to elaborated ones (with better steels and materials), like this company does with everything it manufactures, cutlery, cooking utensils, fishing, gardening tools etc. There are always the cheapest items of each kind, the medium price and the higher price for each type of item this company produce. They exports several countries and survival knives was exported to some countries like Russia and Itally when Tamontina manufactured this, but unfortunatelly I don't know which particular items go to which countries.

Oh lordy, if that's not a flashback!!!!

JD Mandrell, few different Tramontina knives have been copied by China over the last decades, the Commander 1 knife has been copied by China since the 80's in huge amount numbers, but the quality of the legitimate and the quality of the copies is the opposite.

 

[Silvano Marlon]

Another brazilian knifemaker from the 80's who used to put holes in the blades of his hollow handle survival knives.

The knifemaker Roberto Gaeta (commercial nickname: 'Bob G.') made his first hollow handle knife in the 1.977, he was the first bladesmith to develop his damascus steel in South America and he has retired since the early 1990s, but is still alive. Since the early 80's he used to made the handles and buttcaps of his survival knives in 304 steel (non-magnetic stainless steel) and the blades made of different types of steels like AISI 440C, ATS-34, D-2, 154-CM and other good steels available on the international market in the 80s.
He did re-interpretations of consecrated survival knives models and he also liked to do quite unusual designs mixing other outdoor purposes knives styles with the usual survival style of that period, making hybrids from survival knives with knives made to other outdoor activities. According to magazine articles some few of his carbon steel made survival knives blades had mix temper and the base of the blades (tang and ricasso areas) had soft hardness and much flexibility, but other areas (edges and saws areas) was hardened higher to about 58 Hrc on that same blades.

The 'Águia' model was developed by Gaeta in 1.984 as a knife to answer his personal needs in his hunting and fishing campings of several days, where he had to clean, prepare and cook the animals he and his friends fished and hunted. After that he started to produce this model for sale by requests of customers, always with full tang handles in different materials (horns and brazilian woods)and afterward Gaeta began to produce the Águia knife in hollow handle version was well in three choices of finishings on the steel (all polished, all sand blasted or all black chrome coated).

Zagaia is a hunting weapon traditionally used in South America in the past to hunt and slaughter Onças (a large South American jaguar) by a primitive method. The Zaguaia is a blade attached to the end of a long wood, like a spear, but which is used without launching and it must necessarily need to have a flexible steel at the base of the blade so that it can buckle and bend during the brutal reactions and attacks of that animal after being hit, without the blade breaking during the fight (I fell a lot of pitty imaginating that). In the 80's, Gaeta created a knife named 'Zaguaia' mixing a survival knife with that gun.

 

[Silvano Marlon]

Assorted Gaeta's hollow handled knives of different periods:

 

[TAH]

Good stuff, Silvano. I really enjoyed seeing these knives. Thank you!

 

[BladeScout]

Now that BF is a Gaston444-free zone, its safe to dip a toe in the water and post an interesting HH.

Wayne Goddard.

 

[ilten]

Thank you Silvano! Great knives that I had never seen before.