The Holy Grail of heat treatment ?

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Valar God

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I was browsing trough some forums the other day and ran into a hilarious thread.

I had a laugh for a few days and I thought you might want too.

The OP of the thread, as I read and as he claims,
has trouble with performing heat treatment without his blades breaking
so he found a solution which will not just prevent the breakage
but allow him to achieve some kind of superior heat treatment.

It seems that achieving this heat treatment is like a Holy Grail to him.


So, the OP first said:

In the article in the book, "The Spirit of the Sword", there's a description and a great photo of a sword being heated for yaki ire. He puts it in the coals spine down to heat the blade without over heating the edge and when it gets close, he flips it over to bring the edge up to temperature while keeping the spine cooler.
There's a great photo showing the colour difference. I'll try to find it or take a pic of it from my book.

This was a big light bulb for me. I want to try to figure out a propane fueled "forge" that mimics the coals of the charcoal fire. Kind of like a gas barbeque supercharged... not sure it can be done though without using a ton of propane.

And then he added some pictures:

yoshindo1.jpg


yoshindo.jpg



The picture really says what the OP is trying to achieve
but this is where it gets funny.

I got no idea who wrote this article but it is obviously by someone
who has no metal work experience what so ever.

I don't know if the OP imagines HT furnace as filled with extremely hot coal
while the air inside is ice cold
so that the only heat the blade gets is that by a direct contact with coal.

Even if so, this method would be technically unachievable
because metal conducts heat
and there is no way that you can heat one side of the blade while the other
stays colder for more than a few degrees.
Not putting the hot air into the equation which could be even hotter that the coal itself,
the difference would be counted in few grades of temp. scale
but in the OP's vision it is tens or even hundreds of degrees of difference.

Have in mind that the blade is wide only a few centimeters.

And it would be impossible to achieve such a distinctive line between
the two parts of the steel.

This could be only possible with some advanced technology which would
instantly heat one half of the blade
where that effect would only last for couple of seconds
until the heat diffuses into the other half.



To a trained eye, the explanation to this picture is more than simple.

First, the one who wrote the comment in it has no idea what he has seen.
Or the story was purposely altered to attract readers.

Second, how knowledgeable one must be to believe in such comment.

Third, anyone who understands the basics of Japanese swordsmithing
would know that they coat their blades in clay before heat treating.

So, the simple answer to the difference in color in this picture is: CLAY

Forth: one simple google search would bring you to the original text
which clearly says that the temperature must be homogenized throughout the blade.


The thread was really funny but what bothered me was the arrogant behavior of the OP,
where he used insults towards people opposing his beliefs.
He probably thinks high about himself because of a lot of blades he broke.
Actually it was painful to watch how low he fell.

I don't know if he visits this forum but I can guess how embarrassing this would be for him.


Not just that all this is funny but is also dangerous.
I don't care how many blades that OP will break in his life
but to some amateur seeking knowledge his beliefs could seem legitimate
and then, instead of concentrating on achieving a proper heat treat,
he could lose time on experimenting how many hundreds of "normalizations"
or subsequent quenchs (omg) or some other nonsense
is needed to prevent heat treatment errors.

Well, one man's nonsense - another man's Holy Grail.
 
I was browsing trough some forums the other day and ran into a hilarious thread.

Why don't you try to heat treat something and get back to us? :rolleyes: In the mean time, I'm sure there's a cool new knife at the mall -- run along...

Stacy: could you get rid of this clown?
 
Why don't you try to heat treat something and get back to us? :rolleyes: In the mean time, I'm sure there's a cool new knife at the mall -- run along...

Stacy: could you get rid of this clown?

Yep, another one added to the ignore list. :rolleyes:
 
Mr. God..

I can only assume you're referring to me because while I did post those photos I did't recognize the other behaviour you mention.
The thread was really funny but what bothered me was the arrogant behavior of the OP,
where he used insults towards people opposing his beliefs.
He probably thinks high about himself because of a lot of blades he broke.
Actually it was painful to watch how low he fell.



The funniest thing you say is "trained eye". From a guy with no experience and less understanding.

You do not understand the photo or the process at all. If you refer to page 91 of "The Craft of the Japanese sword" you will come across the discussion of "Utsuri", a feature of Bizen blades. It took the MASTER in the photos years to recreate but involves
"the blade evenly in 3 distinct longitudinal bands..." The edge is 800C, the spine is 700-720C and the sides 750-760C.

Perhaps you should stop posting as you clearly are the laughing stock around here.
 
Waaaaaaaaaah?......... Shows how OFF someone can be when they have only one post to go by.... I should have searched his posting history.

SORRY FELLAS... carry on.

I really thought he was refering to some tacticool website warrior....... sorry Stu... lol.
 
For what it's worth.. The inflammatory title of this thread is wrong.

I never suggested that water quenching W2 is any "Holy Grail". In fact I only do it with Japanese style blades when I want to induce sori and gain the hamon effects of a water quench. I do it not out of necessity but desire.

I don't claim any performance benefits, only aesthetic ones and those are subjective at best. It's the process that I enjoy and for those that share that joy of the process, Bill Burke's advice is one hint to cracking fewer blades.

I have cracked only those 2 blades in water, and once in brine if you must know.

So.. Carry on with your insults if you must. Your hyperbole is indication enough that you'll say anything to "one up" the next guy.
 
OK, I have beer and pretzels. This should be good. However, could we move this too an appropriate location on our forum, maybe W&C?
 
Stu,
This guy obviously has some imaginary bone to pick with you, either out of professional jealousy, or some illusory insult. More than likely this is some sock puppet account--I'm too new to have witnessed any other conflicts you may have had with other users, but I'm sure that could not have been that many, if any. Likewise, writing is unique to individuals, it might be noteworthy to compare his linguistics and grammar to any of those other individuals who might look to make a personal ad hominem attack.

Otherwise, if this forum system operates like others I've used, mods and admin should be able to peep his IP address. Letting someone like Rick or Stacy know of anybody you might suspect and having them compare IPs should help clear up who it is.

Hope this helps, sorry this troll has been giving you such a hard time--you're a gentleman and scholar for handling him as you have thus in the old thread to now--where most would have dropped to his level and begun trading threats and trash talk, you have stayed true to form, carried on a legitimate course of conversation, and still managed to teach those capable of listening a thing or two. Thank you sir, I hope this a$$clown gets handed a banhammer and glass of STFU soon.

EDIT:
Ok, so I'm very likely wrong about this probably being a sockpuppet account, and the person only uses the account Valar God.
I tried googling the name with some choice bit typos--the sort of misspelled or dropped coordinating conjunctions that he consistently makes and *whistles* boy oh boy what did I dig up.
Valar's a self professed expert on:
LOTR, Orgonite, and Runescape (I'll save that gem for last).
He also appears to be from Serbia and has an extreme fixation on energy alignment, Masonic conspiracy theory, and on the Orient, although he has never been there of received any formal education into Eastern practices, cultures, or languages.
The typos and writing style are too indicative for it to be a mismatch, especially in comparison to the the runescape forum link I'll save for last.

Near as I can tell, he shared his "homemade elven machete" here--I found that thread, but it was this post on the British Blade Forums about a D3 stee knife that caught my eye:
http://www.britishblades.com/forums...-Homemade-knife-and-knife-handle-by-Valar-God
The handle is stuff called Orgonite, and a user was kind enough to post this link in re: http://www.orgonite.info/
As Winter notes in post 4 and quotes in the thread:
Quick Facts About Orgonite:

Simple. Easy to make. Works continuously.
Turns negative energy into positive energy.
Purifies the atmosphere, detoxifies water, ends drought.
Helps plants grow better, repel pests & require less water.
Mitigates harmful effects of EMF radiation.
Disarms and repels predatory forms of life.
Inspires a pleasant demeanor and balanced, happier moods.
Frequently remedies insomnia and chronic nightmares.
Helps awaken your innate psychic senses.

ooookkkkaaaayyyy, so we have someone who believes that random junk packed together in resin can harness "ethereal energy:
"http://www.orgonite.info/what-is-orgonite.html

That was about as far as that rabbit hole went--aside from one knife he made, but never describes heat treating, and a rather suspicious elven blade that looks like one of the budK pieces rehandled (also in orgonite and again without ever mentioning HTing it) that seems to be all the knives he's made.

The REAL fun was tracing all the dead end accounts--unused Knifedog and Knifenetwork accounts, an account with a server host service called KGB (most likely for Runescape), and various posts among Tolkien forums, and a membership at Diadem Forums, a forum fan page for I guess a Japanese girl group called T-ara (http://www.tiaradiadem.com/forums/index.php?showuser=16847)

The real reveal was this post over on the Runescape boards:
http://runescape.salmoneus.net/foru...-runescape/page__pid__3563391__mode__threaded
Paranoid AND delusional? Well now, we have a basket full of crazy, now don't we.
 
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My grandfather told me long ago, "Consider the source.". It has served me well so far.

Thank you very much !

Hello,

Very very good looking blade sir! I Googled orgonite and the first site I found said it has all sorts of magical powers. From absorbing radiation to causing the skies to become clear. It also said something about causing you to feel happy when its around you and good for your wellness. Oh and most important to us knife guys it disarms and repels predatory forms of life. Not bashing just restating what the good old internet said. Check it out on orgonite.info, its the first site I found. Sure looks beautiful on your knife even if it can't or can do magic.

Well done sir,

Chris

@Socalkid, yes everything you said is true.

Be ware that not all things that people claim as orgonites, really are orgonites.

Most manufacturers make "orgonites" to be pretty
so that they would sell them more easily or at higher price.

Not to mention doing it on purpose so that the people who try them
would lose faith in orgonites. (yes, a conspiracy)

The best way to have them is to make them yourself.

They are not instantly-working, they need some time but they really do work.
That is my reason to have one with me.

From my experience:
They reduce the radiation of different devices (eg. mobile phones and base stations).
They drastically improve weather and prevent hail.
Just to name a few.
Plus the things you said.

Thank you.

Cheers.
 
I never suggested that water quenching W2 is any "Holy Grail". In fact I only do it with Japanese style blades when I want to induce sori and gain the hamon effects of a water quench. I do it not out of necessity but desire.

I don't claim any performance benefits, only aesthetic ones and those are subjective at best. It's the process that I enjoy and for those that share that joy of the process, Bill Burke's advice is one hint to cracking fewer blades.

Well said. I think that gets to the heart of "why hamons?" At least, it does for me.
I hope this a$$clown gets handed a banhammer and glass of STFU soon.

Thank you Ed, I wholeheartedly agree.
 
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