The Internet and Handmade Knives: Past, Current, and Future....

[SharpByCoop]

This subject gets discussed on occasion, but it always seems to be a sidebar to some other thread.

I'd like to again hear and get input on what effect the web has had on Custom Knives (Custom/Handmade: for this discussion, a generic term please).

Historically the web has only gotten prominence as a large public venue from about 1999-on. It's a standard of communication, education, and advertising nowadays, and will only have a larger influence on our lives continually.

Immediate benefits:
Discussion
Visibility
Education
Competition
Camaraderie
24/7 Knife Shows
Broadband improvements

Drawbacks:
Discussion (no good comment goes unpunished)
Visibility (think comparison)
Anonymity (credibility/accountablity)
Only a two dimensional world
Lack of feel
Show Attendance diminishing
Those stuck without broadband access
Knives labeled as weapons

Future:
Display medium: Images & videos (Think $$$ )
Visibility online vs Paper publications (is this pendulum swinging?)
Smartphone/Tablet specialty apps (growing daily)

I've outlined plenty.

What's your input and firsthand experience?

Can you envision where we are going?

Thanks for your thoughts.

Coop

 

[RogerP]

GREAT topic Coop - I look forward to the views of this community on the subject. I'll add my own when time permits.

Roger

 

[Bobby Branton]

The web gives instant gratification for the buyer and seller. I remember when I was collecting and starting out as a maker. As a maker I had to put an ad in Blade magazine wait a month for it to come out and then wait another week or two for someone to request a catalog by mail and then wait for them to send money or call and discuss the knife that they wanted to order. As a collector, you had to send a SASE to the collector (except the brave collector or dealer who published a phone number) and wait to get his list of knives for sale. The cool knives were scooped up by the guys who knew how to get in touch with them.

As a maker, I had to travel all over the south east to visit a shop of another maker who was willing to show you a new technique. I drove 18 hours to Jim Crowell's shop and spent a week with him to take my JS test. Now we can get on the net and at least get a good idea on how to do something or order a DVD. (Can't wait for Paul longs DVD to get here)

I really love and appreciate the guys who put on shows, but something is going to have to give. They are going to have to cut back on the number of shows until the economy gets better. I think it hurts all of us to have these tiny 100 table shows every month. I'd like to see about 4 powerful shows a year instead of 20 small ones. There just are not enough collectors to go around and it is too easy to buy off the net and not have the hassles of traveling and losing knives with the airlines.

If you are not in the top 20 of knife makers who are in constant demand, you have a hard time justifying shows where you don't make any money. You can not do this very long. I love meeting my friends and making new friends at shows, but it is hard as a full time maker to keep taking hard hits at shows.

 

[Kevin Jones]

I did a thread on this subject a little less than 2 years ago so it will be interesting to see how/if opinions and views have changed in that time.
Especially considering how the Internet has contributed to the decline in attendance at knife shows over the last couple years. There's a lot to be said for collectors standing face to face at shows with makers and other collectors while examining knives. Perhaps provides the best education of all.

Now don't get me wrong, the Internet along with everything that goes along with it has had a tremendous positive influence on the custom knife community over the last 15 years. Among many other positives, the world-wide exposure of custom knives via the outstanding knife photos we see posted on forums every day has catapulted custom knives to a whole new level in my opinion. The Internet is to a large part responsible for the success of the CKCA which benefits the community.

The Internet is no doubt an important component of the progression of custom knives, however just one component.

 

[Bobby Branton]

I did a thread on this subject a little less than 2 years ago so it will be interesting to see how/if opinions and views have changed in that time.
Especially considering how the Internet has contributed to the decline of knife shows over the last couple years. There's a lot to be said for collectors standing face to face at shows with makers and other collectors while examining knives. Perhaps provides the best education of all.

Now don't get me wrong, the Internet along with everything that goes along with it has had a tremendous positive influence on the custom knife community over the last 15 years. Among many other positives, the world-wide exposure of custom knives via the outstanding knife photos we see posted on forums every day has catapulted custom knives to a whole new level in my opinion. The Internet is to a large part responsible for the success of the CKCA which benefits the community.

The Internet is no doubt an important component of the progression of custom knives, however just one component.

In a perfect world that would be great. There is nothing better than to stand in front of your favorite maker, or a newly discovered maker to buy that cool knife. We have to face reality. There are too many shows. You have too many people who buy knives that could care less about going to a show when they can buy three more knives in the comfort of their home and save 1K for another couple of knives that they would like to own.
Unless you are very wealthy, there is no way that you can recover from one show and have more cash readily available to go to the next show the following month and buy more knives. What if you go to the next show and there are no knives available that you collect? Do you take that chance at the next show or do you buy the one on a makers or dealers site that is available??

Come on collectors, speak up!!! We do this for you. Tell us what you want. More shows, less shows???? How can we make your buying experience better??

 

[Kevin Jones]

In a perfect world that would be great. There is nothing better than to stand in front of your favorite maker, or a newly discovered maker to buy that cool knife. We have to face reality. There are too many shows. You have too many people who buy knives that could care less about going to a show when they can buy three more knives in the comfort of their home and save 1K for another couple of knives that they would like to own.
Unless you are very wealthy, there is no way that you can recover from one show and have more cash readily available to go to the next show the following month and buy more knives. What if you go to the next show and there are no knives available that you collect? Do you take that chance at the next show or do you buy the one on a makers or dealers site that is available??

Come on collectors, speak up!!! We do this for you. Tell us what you want. More shows, less shows???? How can we make your buying experience better??

I agree Bobby, there are too many shows. I keep thinking show promoters are going to realize this by them noticing that some shows which once had 200 legitimate collectors/buyers in attendance now have 30.
But anyway, that's a whole different discussion.

In regard to your above post, I'm not speaking of collectors being able to afford (or not) to go to shows and buy knives every month. I'm speaking of collectors going to a major knife show or Blade show at least once or every other year. A show like Blade offers a collector (especially a new collector) a heck of an opportunity to educate themselves as opposed to setting behind a keyboard. Not saying that one can't learn a lot from knife forums, just saying the Internet is no substitute for handling hundreds of knives and talking/interacting with dozens of talented makers and collectors at a show.
I'm a strong believer that to learn about custom knives one has to go where the knives are.

Often the collectors who buy all their knives on the Internet and think they are saving money by not attending a show or two are the same ones whining that they can't get anything near what they paid for a knife when they go to sell it. Again, not saying the Internet isn't a good place to buy knives. I have bought many knives from web-dealers over the years. Just saying that I have found that a well rounded education and approach (attending shows and the Internet) to collecting custom knives is beneficial.

 

[martinr]

Even for those that attend shows and attend as many as possible the internet is still a great resource and source of information and source of knives. A perfect example of how the internet can benefit a collector is this recent experience of mine. One of my favorite makers is Jack Busfield, he doesn't do shows but his knives are available from time to time on dealer sites. Jim Cooper has what I consider an invaluable resource in his website, a collector can hunt for knives from a particular maker and even from a particular dealer. Sometimes the dealer pictures are put up on Jim's site before they hit the dealer site. This was just the case for me this weekend, I saw two Jack Busfield knives on Jim's site, found out who the dealer was and bought the knives before they were listed. They will be here tomorrow. Thank you internet. Will I stay home and internet shop and not go to shows? No way, I enjoy shows even if I go home empty handed. My opinion regarding too many shows? It's not that there are too many shows, it's that there aren't enough collectors. I think the economy has a lot to do with the lack of new collectors. I also think that new collectors are easily turned off by the knife collecting hobby, they see lots of dealers entering drawings for hard to get knives, they see promoters entering drawings at shows they put on, they see guys with exhibitor passes that aren't exhibitors buying knives from makers before the show opens, and they see makers not showing up at shows they are advertised to be at. What happens is collectors think " Hey I could stay home, not pay for travel and a hotel, not have to compete with dealers and exhibitors, not have to worry about the TSA, not have to worry about getting picked for a knife, and my chances of getting what I want are about the same". I started a thread on here a while ago about knife show drawings and promoters entering the drawings at the show they were promoting. That kind of thing is exactly what turns off collectors, new and experienced. But the reaction I got on here was purely defensive, the promoter wasn't doing anything wrong according to many posters. So for those of you that say you want shows to do well and be well attended maybe some changes in the way you think about how they are put on might be beneficial.

 

[Ed Fowler]

We just had a little gun show here in Riverton. One knife dealer who deals in used but special knives (to someone) most are far from mint conditioin. This was the show's first year.

The dealer told me it had been his best show in years. He was there, no other knife dealers were. He had the time to educate those who stoped to talk and was the perfect embasador for the knife community.

He had what folks wanted and they bought his knives.

The way I see it the more shows we have, the more folks will eventually be drawn to the knife community.

If knife shows are dying out like some claim, maybe we have to look carefully at what we are bringing to the table.

 

[Lorien]

I guess for me it's pretty simple; the internet has provided me with an interface which has served as an induction into this community, thereby ensuring that my future includes custom knives.

Doesn't matter how many shows or how few shows for me, as I haven't gained access to this world in that way. Really, only through the internet has my interest been nourished.

If it weren't for the exposure to custom knives that the internet has provided me, then I'm pretty sure that I'd not have the level of interest that I've attained in the 5 short years I've been using it, nor the knowledge to make sound decisions when it comes to acquiring knives, or simply just having an idea of what is going on out there.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Jim Cooper has what I consider an invaluable resource in his website, a collector can hunt for knives from a particular maker and even from a particular dealer. Sometimes the dealer pictures are put up on Jim's site before they hit the dealer site. This was just the case for me this weekend, I saw two Jack Busfield knives on Jim's site, found out who the dealer was and bought the knives before they were listed. Now you have let the cat out of the bag. You can even tell which dealers own the knives by how Jim are codes them. example KL=Knife Legends

My opinion regarding too many shows? It's not that there are too many shows, it's that there aren't enough collectors.

That's probably the best way top put it. Or even better yet not enough collectors going to shows. Good post.

 

[Kevin Jones]

I guess for me it's pretty simple; the internet has provided me with an interface which has served as an induction into this community, thereby ensuring that my future includes custom knives.

Doesn't matter how many shows or how few shows for me, as I haven't gained access to this world in that way. Really, only through the internet has my interest been nourished.If it weren't for the exposure to custom knives that the internet has provided me, then I'm pretty sure that I'd not have the level of interest that I've attained in the 5 short years I've been using it, nor the knowledge to make sound decisions when it comes to acquiring knives, or simply just having an idea of what is going on out there.

Good point Lorien as the Internet is excellent for nurturing and exposing collectors to custom knives, especially those who are more isolated from where most of the action occurs, however there's a BIG custom knife world out there beyond the Internet with many knifemakers and many custom knives. How many custom knives from how many different knifemakers have you actually had in your hand and been able to handle, inspect and learn from?
That's the experience that knife shows provide that the Internet can not.

 

[Murray White]

I prefer lots of shows. I like to see the knife before I purchase but certainly have purchased via other ways when I am familiar with the makers product. I like lots of shows with close proximity as when we travel, it means the ability to see lots of knives, lots of makers and photograph lots of shows and knives and display them here and on CKCA.

Until I sell some knives however, my purchases will become reduced as I simply have no more room to put anything.

I think this is an area in which show promoters and organizations could help the whole collecting scene and provide for collectors to have an ability to drop knives off at a swap/sell table as most would simply use the funds to purchase another knife and it would give collectors another venue to make a purchase of a knife from another source. Does not help me personally due to border restrictions and problems but would be useful for other collectors.

It would be nice also if more collectors would be provided with table at shows to display collections as that also will assist new collectors into understanding the options of collecting. I remember well, the collections on display at some past Guild shows and of course the displays years ago at CKCC shows.

Show promoters, dealers and makers have to collectively find ways to develop and expand shows and the access of collectors and the development of new collectors to both attend shows and use knife forums and other internet sources that encourage collectors to not only collect but to participate in the discussion of knives and collecting and in turn to encourage new sources of collectors.

 

[Lorien]

Good point Lorien as the Internet is excellent for nurturing and exposing collectors to custom knives, especially those who are more isolated from where most of the action occurs, however there's a BIG custom knife world out there beyond the Internet with many knifemakers and many custom knives. How many custom knives from how many different knifemakers have you actually had in your hand and been able to handle, inspect and learn from?
That's the experience that knife shows provide that the Internet can not.

you make some good points, and I also must add that coverage of knife shows, by way of Coop, Murray, RL, Garsson and others help to educate, and if there were no shows obviously the internet would be lacking as well.

I like to see things as one big organic mess, where every piece is in some way linked with every other piece.

 

[JParanee]

Well without I would not know all of you, most the makers on here would be less known maybe not even heard of.

The internet is good business plain and simple. It is free advertising and I am sad to say viewed by many more than the written word and coming from a guy that collects books and reads alot kinda bummed, but thats another topic.

Learning curves have snow balled and things that where rare 3o years ago are common place such as Damascus and 2 many other techniques to mention.

I used to attened local shows but never would have attended Blade without encouragement from friends I meet here. So in a way I can't see how it is hurting shows.

If show attendance has wained than Promotors better use the internet to promote there shows.

 

[Allen Newberry]

I love the internet for all things knife. I do facebook, twitter, have a web page, and I have sub forums on two knife forums. There is a ton of knife related info on the web about knives.

That being said... I love shows! Where else can you handle dozens if not hundreds of knives in a weekend. Plus, you can actually meet the people that you learn about on the internet and magazines. Walk up to Ed Fowler's table and he will tell you the purpose of every part of his knives. Check out a quillion dagger that is headed to Atlanta or has already been there. Pick out some wood or ivory and actually know what it looks like and feels like before you purchase it. Actually hear how Rhea is pronounced. Have a conversation with Chuck Ward. Meet several knifemaker's better halves. Notice that my wife is way better looking than me. There are a lot of cool things that you are missing out on if you don't go to the shows.

 

[SharpByCoop]

^^^ Thanks guys, for your discussions. Allen's sentiments are shared by me and, probably everyone else. Nonetheless...

The aspect of Knife Shows being affected by the internet, or lack of collectors is real. We are in marketing, and ourselves and future collectors are our own target. We need growth.

What I wanted to spawn were ideas, not grousing. That's easy. Joe Paranee just touched into some opinions (or facts) that are inescapable:

The internet is good business plain and simple. It is free advertising and I am sad to say viewed by many more than the written word ....

Really? Even Joe has experienced the trend.

If show attendance has wained then Promotors better use the internet to promote their shows.

Hmmmm. Not being utilized enough. I can't say I disagree.

EX: Just above, you heard a comment of how MY internet site has transformed a collector to find something he wanted--without going to a show, nor did he read about it on paper.

The internet is POWERFUL. Look up the term 'ideavirus':

Interrupting people is an inefficient approach to marketing, and one doomed to failure. Instead marketers should strive to spread ideas. An Ideavirus is an idea that moves and grows and infects everyone it touches. An Ideavirus is based on customers marketing to each other.

For some, going to a show is 'interupting' them. In a big way.

I'm listening. We're spreading ideas right here. How can the future sustain our craft if it follows the old, traditional methods of marketing and visibility?

One of my clients can't WAIT to get home after a show. That's where he sells his product: Online, in the comfort of your homes. Not at a Show.

Bobby said this:

Come on collectors, speak up!!! We do this for you. Tell us what you want. More shows, less shows???? How can we make your buying experience better??

Obviously the public has spoken and sales are happening elsewhere. Bobby, I haven't seen new offerings from you clearly photographed and posted right here for the longest time. Where are you marketing? (I love you man, but you stepped right into my dialog.)

This is about bold approaches and new methods. My own website has been responsible for unaccountable sales and interest. People like a visual medium. Need to feel the knife? Trustworthy dealers will sell a knife and take it back in return if unsatisfied. The risks are getting less.

What else? eBooks? Paper books will always be around, but you'd BETTER think forward AND laterally.

(What major industry has converted in the past fifteen years to 98% internet from print?)

Keep up the thoughts, please. I'm energized.

Coop

 

[Bobby Branton]

No problem Coop, I can handle it. I just sent you a PM. I have had some health issues, but will not bore the forums guys with them as I do not want to use them as an excuse. I am doing better and I am coming back slowly. I am using the down economy to hone my skills and go back to my roots a bit.

 

[martinr]

Coop is right and right in the middle of this example. At the Chicago show last month AKI knifemaker Steve Rapp had a stag handled subhilt fighter engraved by Jon Robyn on his table for $3000. It was a beautiful knife and well worth the money. Nobody bought it. The next weekend at the Guild show the knife was on Steve Rapp's table for $3000 and nobody bought it. A few weeks go by, Coop photographs the knife and it is on Knifelegends website for $3850 and sells right away.

 

[Trent Rock]

The Internet (and EBAY) is the greatest innovation that HELPS knife collectors,sellers and buyer...IMHO
Mostly because of, obviously, information
I can price knives easier
Find maker information easier
Shipping costs are more visible
Compare and contrast knives easier
Shop for the cheapest price or the best quality
Eliminate the dreaded information asymmetry
And LEARN about the knife world/market
I've learned more about knife collecting from 3 years on BF than I would have ever learned buying a book here and there
Or going to a knife show here and there
(Heck...I thought it was called a BLOOD GROOVE not a FULLER!! )
In economic gibberish===>transaction costs are lower

Internet for transaction costs to conduct electronic commerce using the Internet, the greatest advantage is to reduce transaction costs.

Sufficient information on the Internet, and you only sit in front of the computer, they can go to the web to find information all over the world, the Internet can significantly reduce the transaction costs of search costs; as Internet allows producers directly to consumers, Province out of conventional multi-level marketing system, so the business process cost and contract negotiation costs can be significantly reduced. As consumers access to information on the Internet low cost, it can very easily compare the various companies providing products and services, the Internet can reduce transaction process, the demand side and supply side information asymmetry, and even it can to reverse the situation of information asymmetry. In a traditional general business environment, relatively consumers, businesses providing products or services have more information, so it can use the ignorance of consumers, higher costs to their request, to obtain excess returns, which is called producer surplus (supplier's surplus).

In the Internet, consumer access to information is very easy compared with the other suppliers, he may know more about products and services information, this time on the business no longer has the information advantage, will not be able to raise..........

http://www.tekbar.net/cost-and-investment/e-commerce-and-transaction-costs.html

I'm glad I am not the only one who thinks that having "too many" knife shows is not a bad thing
I pretty much only go to the Santa Barbara Knife Show (I'm going this year again) and I went to the Solvang Knife Show before it was invitational style
So I guess, for your marketing data, I'm not willing to drive long distances for knife shows
Mostly time and gas money....

I'm kind of confused how you all are talking about the decline of the knife show industry
Yet, some are complaining there are too many knife shows?
Which is it? A decline or a proliferation?
Also, has there been a decline in the avg cost of a table at knife shows?
Avg cost of admission for attendees?
Just curious..as always....

Instead of fearing The Internet
One should embrace it
Just look at Mike Snody
His mug is all over The Net
I don't think his sales are lacking because of it either


One potential problem with The Internet is what is called the free rider problem

n economics, collective bargaining, psychology, and political science, "free riders" are those who consume more than their fair share of a public resource, or shoulder less than a fair share of the costs of its production. Free riding is usually considered to be an economic "problem" only when it leads to the non-production or under-production (in a collectivist sense) of a public good (and thus to Pareto inefficiency), or when it leads to the excessive use of a common property resource. The free rider problem is the question of how to limit free riding (or its negative effects) in these situation

Free rider problem

This was alluded to in another thread===>

Holdus internetous: This is a very secretive species and is often mistaken for the rare Genuinus customerous. They typically ask to see high end knives which they have read about and seen online. The goal is to evaluate your product and experience it
before they purchase online. These customers are often found in high end bike stores and are known as Tirekickous cheapums.

Free Rider Issues and Internet Retailing

Free Riding and Sales Strategies for the Internet

My name is Trent, and I am a free rider
I walk into a Best Buy (or whatever has the target good, locally, the cheapest...because I want the good TONIGHT...I don't want to wait to have it shipped via snail mail)
I LOOK at the pc monitor I am thinking of buying
I ask the salesman a few questions
I make my choice
Then I tell the salesman, "thanks"
And go home and try and find the target pc monitor on The Net
Cheapest of course.
I free ride off the brick and mortar..............

It works both ways
Sometimes if I decided I want to purchase a certain type of product
I will do my research online
Then walk into Best Buy
Walk right past the salesman
And go directly to the target good
I free ride off The Internet................

What is the solution to Holdus Internetous?
Only thing I can think of is charging a "holding fee"
That is make the potential buyer pay 5 bucks to hold and examine the knife on the table at the knife show
I don't think that would go over very well with the knife buying crowd though

What do the makers think?
Does it upset you that people free ride?
If I go to a knife show and pick up a knife, ask questions about the materials and the maker===>
And then go home and try and find it cheapest on The Net
Does that make me a bad guy?
I don't feel like a bad guy
I feel like I'm being a rational, informed knife consumer

We all free ride a little bit
Admitting your addiction is the first step they say....hehehehehe

Whatever the reason for many consumers’ preference to “research shop” on the Internet but buy the selected product from a brick-and-mortar store, recent marketing research confirms that this is, in fact, the more common direction of free riding today.68 An IBM-conducted survey of U.S. consumers, for example, found that 78% of the responders had gathered information on the Internet before purchasing from a brick-and-mortar store, while only 8% browsed at a store before buying online.69 Another study, conducted by Doubleclick, reports similar findings – 43% of shoppers reported browsing on the Internet before purchasing at stores, as compared to 16% of shoppers who browsed at stores

Resale Price Maintenance: The Internet Phenomenon and 'Free Rider' Issues

 

[Lorien]

nice! Lorien loves yer posts.