The Internet and Handmade Knives: Past, Current, and Future....

Lorien said:
nice! Lorien loves yer posts.
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Pros and cons of the internet wrt knife collecting right there.

Interest does not automatically mean ability to purchase or even ability to get educated.

Does internet education equal real world education? In this case, not imo.

Lorien knows how to use fixed blade knives to do the things that he wants to do....that's good, as is his attendance at Dave Lisch's event in Seattle.

A statement just the other day that he could not justify spending $500 or so on a folding knife was, for me, alarming....MOST of us, especially in cities, use folding knives more often than fixed....if this is the case, and it may in fact be, what the internet is bringing to the fore is under capitalized POTENTIALS......that does not necessarily bring us the future.

The ability to talk to many makers, to see the points they make in person, to handle many knives, to hear many viewpoints directly, the ability and necessity to make quick decisions with regard to purchases....these are all skills/experiences a seasoned collector should have, and this can only be had in the "real" world.

I roll with a lot of serious collectors, serious with both money and gravity of collection. I agree with them sometimes, and disagree sometimes but have earned the lending of their ears and their mind for the time we are together because I have proven myself over time as being serious, and being educated, and this could only be earned by meeting them, sparring with them and showing them what I know. That comes with being there.....at a show, most likely.

There is simply no substitute for that....if you JUST want knives, the internet is just fine.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
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What do the makers think?
Does it upset you that people free ride?
If I go to a knife show and pick up a knife, ask questions about the materials and the maker===>
And then go home and try and find it cheapest on The Net
Does that make me a bad guy?
I don't feel like a bad guy
I feel like I'm being a rational, informed knife consumer
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I don't think that most knifemakers would have a problem with you checking them out at a show and buying their stuff elsewhere. One of the things I hope for at a show is for people learn more about what I make and about me. If that generates a sale of one of my knives then it would be a success. (Even if someone else sold the knife.) However, if you can't trace the sale back to show then you won't give the show credit for it. And, if sales are slow at a show it is hard for a maker to justify the expense.
 
martinr said:
Coop is right and right in the middle of this example. At the Chicago show last month AKI knifemaker Steve Rapp had a stag handled subhilt fighter engraved by Jon Robyn on his table for $3000. It was a beautiful knife and well worth the money. Nobody bought it. The next weekend at the Guild show the knife was on Steve Rapp's table for $3000 and nobody bought it. A few weeks go by, Coop photographs the knife and it is on Knifelegends website for $3850 and sells right away.
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That's a beautiful knife.
And goes to show that purchasing knives on the Interent is not necessarily less expensive than traveling to shows and purchasing them. ;)
 
Excellent points and counterpoints. ALL correct to a large degree.

My synopsis so far:

1. For a consumer, the internet is invaluable.
2. For deepest knowledge and experience handling knives, and immeasurable human interaction, Shows are invaluable.

We'll continue to have both, so lets leave the versus conversations alone and let's talk directly towards how the internet can provide you with more of what you want.

In a nutshell, we collect and enjoy this medium, because the knives are cool, and the people are cool. As STeven touts, it's a cold world of facts and data if we only visit/learn through a monitor and keyboard.

Still, for thousands upon thousands that don't post here, that medium is good enough.

Bobby used great keywords in his query, succinctly: "How can we make your buying experience better?"

Buying and selling are part and parcel of the 'experience' of Handmade Knives as much as a handshake and conversation with the makers, collectors and other principals.

Each time I visit a maker's website one of the FIRST things I look for (and is usually missing) is a photo of THEM on their About Me or Home Page. The internet is cold and factual. By providing a photo of yourself to the world, you disarm the viewer with friendliness. I am that much more willing to read the text, if I see the person who wrote it. No photo: Lost opportunity.

Mike Snody doesn't have only a single photo on his site. No, he comes INTO YOUR LIFE and shakes your hand like your longest lost friend through his videos. He understands the human condition and has worked technology to support this clear foundation. It's one part genius marketing and two parts filling a need. (You GO Mike!)

People are a community. Our forums are a community. Our forums are the internet. We CAN and DO experience both. On the other end of every keyboard is a real human.

What directions can you see growth?

Disclosure: I need REAL education about social networking. I have a Facebook page and 58 friendship requests still unanswered. Twitter and Blogs seem so narcisistic. There is a medium I have not taken advantage of. Truth is my plate is already full. What am I missing? I need educating, too.

Keep talking.

Coop
 
Disclosure: I need REAL education about social networking. I have a Facebook page and 58 friendship requests still unanswered. Twitter and Blogs seem so narcisistic. There is a medium I have not taken advantage of. Truth is my plate is already full. What am I missing? I need educating, too.
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I have both personal and Newberry Knives facebook and twitter pages. My twitter updates are the same as my facebook updates and you can set it up to automatically update one when you update the other to save time. As far as content goes, If I am at another makers shop, at a hammer-in, at a class, making something interesting, or get a decent picture of something etc. I make a quick post. So next week when I am at the ABS Handles and Guards class with Joe Keeslar you can bet there will be some photos. With my iphone I am able to update my pages with a quick photo of a demonstration while the demonstration is still occurring and it doesn't take much time at all.

In your case if you just post up your knife photography people will look because we enjoy knives and some may even be keeping an eye open to try and catch knives before the makers post them up for sale. Plus this would be another service to your clients.

I find the medium to be useful and I have made several sales because of it.

As to your unanswered friendship requests... I would suggest starting a Sharp by Coop page and then respond to their requests explaining your situation and giving them a link to the page.
 
The internet is an avenue which opens up a great many opportunities for makers and collectors to get better acquainted with who the makers are and what makers make, also educates the makers on what collectors collect. It helps makers reach collectors all over the world that can't attend shows thousands of miles away. This is a great thing.

But shows are a place where makers and buyers get personal, the body language, friendliness, the willingness to share a handshake. I've corresponded with several collectors from different parts of the world, but never sold them a knife until meeting them personally at a show. To many knife buyers, they buy the knife because of the person as much as the knife and in some cases more, you can't get that on the internet. Years ago I use to think I couldn't afford to do a show, $1000+ expenses just wasn't worth the gamble with hopes/wishes of getting it back, which at most shows I never did, but the orders I received after returning home from those shows soon made me realize how important shows are to makers. This is where the internet is a really big plus, because it helps makers stay in touch with those they met at the shows. ;)
Do I think there's to many shows, not really, there are shows and then there are great shows and I think most serious buyers will always do their best to attend the great shows, while the not so great shows help educate and encourage future buyers to possibly attend the great shows.

Bill
 
Kohai999 said:
Pros and cons of the internet wrt knife collecting right there.

Interest does not automatically mean ability to purchase or even ability to get educated.

Does internet education equal real world education? In this case, not imo.

Lorien knows how to use fixed blade knives to do the things that he wants to do....that's good, as is his attendance at Dave Lisch's event in Seattle.

A statement just the other day that he could not justify spending $500 or so on a folding knife was, for me, alarming....MOST of us, especially in cities, use folding knives more often than fixed....if this is the case, and it may in fact be, what the internet is bringing to the fore is under capitalized POTENTIALS......that does not necessarily bring us the future.
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Steven, firstly, it's ok to address Lorien directly:p (I had a little inside joke there with Trent from over at facebox).

Secondly, dont' be alarmed! The context of the statement you're referring to included the clause, "at this time". It's not that I could never justify spending that kind of money on a folder and that I don't ever want to, it's that I can't and won't at the moment. Now, if I saw a Steineau, Loerchner, Schmidt, Lake or Walker, (etc, you get the point) for $500... I don't live in a city either, which means I get to use the type of knife I want to most any time, and the knife which I like to use is a fixed blade.

If and/or when I do decide on a handmade folding knife, I will likely seek out someone who I know to make it for me like most of the knives I acquire. Almost all of my knives came directly from the maker, so in keeping with that the next maker for me of a folding knife will likely be someone like Mike Vagnino. I've talked with him about things other than his folding knives and am assured that he is the kind of person that I would like to help support by way of buying his knives.

So, it's kind of backwards. I've been able to develop relationships with people whose knives I've discovered BEFORE buying. That is what helps me decide. In the past it may take many shows and expensive long distance calls to get to the level of understanding between individuals which I've gained through the internet. I don't buy knives which are 'hot' or popular, I roll on my own and avoid being overly affected by trends whenever possible.

Sorry, I know that this is not about me. I just had to respond:D
 
I was about to post a comment and got distracted by the "sitemeter" icon at the bottom left of this page (I'm sure it's the whole site). It's kind of interesting/ironic/iconic that I found it while reading this post as it (the sitemeter's statistics if you click on it) shows the trend of usage, etc. of this site across the internet.

It just reinforces the point that the Internet is here to stay and that the knife community is just one small part of the whole experience.
 
Knife Shows and the internet are not either/or. Do both as much as you can.

The marketplace will sort it out quick enough if there are too many shows.

Times have changed, as they always do. The days of two or three good handmade shows a year when it was the Guild, New York, and California are long gone. Welcome to the new reality of smaller shows, and a time when marginal knifemakers are going to find themselves, well, marginal.

A maker who can't handle overhead of show attendance, and has little interest in face to face meetings, and/or makes a clunky trot-line-weight knife that is photogenic but has no hand appeal whatsoever might be well served to stay home and be on the net alone. It may sum up to being what the knifemaker's goals are. I suspect in today's market that no knifemaker can afford to skip any avenue of sales--but there are few great marketers among knifemakers in my experience. Sorry it is that way, but again, reality.

Balance of a finely crafted knife cannot be transmitted over the internet.

However, for those of us that do attend shows one of the reasons we do has nothing to do with sales. It has to do with friendship, making new friends, enjoying the company of old friends, sharing this unique passion for pieces of sharpened steel.

For shows to grow and prosper we all have to change our marketing approach. Shows are more than pure sales, but for years we have sold only sales. "Come buy a knife, Come sell a knife." Sales are down when compared with 5 years ago for most people, expenses are up. Just like nearly everything else in the entire economy right now. Knives and knife shows are not impervious to economic conditions.

To read some posts on forums one might think that makers expect it not to be that way.

If you were to ask a group of Republicans at the Republican National Convention, "How many of you are Republicans?" do not be surprised if most of the people say they are Republicans. I would venture if you ask people on the internet if the internet is important, you are going to get the same answer for the same reasons.

The internet is an important part of the knife scene today. It is not the ONLY part, unless you choose to make it so. You can buy plenty of knives on the internet, you can sell plenty of knives on the internet. You can also talk to people you may never see face to face. But if that is all there is to knife collecting for you, I can tell you that you are missing 60-70% of the knife experience.
 
woodgood said:
It just reinforces the point that the Internet is here to stay and that the knife community is just one small part of the whole experience.
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And conversely, the Internet is one small part of the whole knife community experience. ;)
 
I agree with most if not all of the opinions that have been expressed so far on this topic. But to keep with Coop's request and to keep on topic I won't try to add my own personal experience too much.

I think what would be nice is to somehow enhance the experience of using our computers to find out information about knives and their makers.

Being able to read about and having the option to join in on discussions with the knife makers is a great benefit that this site, bladeforums, brings. I am curios to hear from the makers that have their own sub-forum (Hosted Knifemaker's forum) here at bladeforums. How has having your own sub-forum changed your relationship with your customers and friends?

I think what is still missing from most Internet communications is the human experience. Video helps as does forums, etc. But what is lacking is the real time interaction and the ability to sense the emotions of others. I have not yet used a live video chat service such as skype or facetime or others. But I would guess that this type of interaction might be the next level that some of us would be interested in pursuing. Maybe even a one-sided video chat (kind of like those porno sites you (maybe not you) see advertised.

As it relates to knives and the art of knife making, it might be interesting to see what was involved in the knife making process so that you might learn things like why some type of material was chosen over others or why is that part shaped like that. I know that some of the knife making learning/following threads here at bladeforums are quite popular and having some medium to allow this to happen more readily and frequently might be a good thing.

Thanks,

Brett
 
TennKnifeman said:
Knife Shows and the internet are not either/or. Do both as much as you can.

The marketplace will sort it out quick enough if there are too many shows.

Times have changed, as they always do. The days of two or three good handmade shows a year when it was the Guild, New York, and California are long gone. Welcome to the new reality of smaller shows, and a time when marginal knifemakers are going to find themselves, well, marginal.

Great observation from a show promoter:D. I guess you told me :D


A maker who can't handle overhead of show attendance, and has little interest in face to face meetings, and/or makes a clunky trot-line-weight knife that is photogenic but has no hand appeal whatsoever might be well served to stay home and be on the net alone. It may sum up to being what the knifemaker's goals are. I suspect in today's market that no knifemaker can afford to skip any avenue of sales--but there are few great marketers among knifemakers in my experience. Sorry it is that way, but again, reality.

As a maker who has orders to fill and loves shows, it is getting harder to find out which shows are the best shows for ME, As I've gotten older, I am making fewer knives and while trying to fill orders, I have to find shows that are profitable. I don't care who you are, if you are full time as I am, I cannot continue to do shows that are not profitable. It is much more that taking a handful of knives to a show and selling them and coming home with cash. I have to look at a few days out of the shop and not filling orders before and after a show. I have to figure in show expenses, travel, meals and lodging not to mention shop supplies to prepare for a show. Expenses add up real quick.

Balance of a finely crafted knife cannot be transmitted over the internet.

However, for those of us that do attend shows one of the reasons we do has nothing to do with sales. It has to do with friendship, making new friends, enjoying the company of old friends, sharing this unique passion for pieces of sharpened steel.

For shows to grow and prosper we all have to change our marketing approach. Shows are more than pure sales, but for years we have sold only sales. "Come buy a knife, Come sell a knife." Sales are down when compared with 5 years ago for most people, expenses are up. Just like nearly everything else in the entire economy right now. Knives and knife shows are not impervious to economic conditions.

To read some posts on forums one might think that makers expect it not to be that way.

One way is for show promoters to be more interactive on the forums instead of showing up and posting that they are having a show a month before the show and that's it. Maybe a show promoter can have a sub forum where they can post updates about their shows and promote their year round. Make it lucrative for someone who is on the fence about going to a show. I have to say that Bruce and A.G. are the exception rather than the rule as they are not afraid to jump in and give their opinions.

If you were to ask a group of Republicans at the Republican National Convention, "How many of you are Republicans?" do not be surprised if most of the people say they are Republicans. I would venture if you ask people on the internet if the internet is important, you are going to get the same answer for the same reasons.
If you ask a show promoter if shows are important........

The internet is an important part of the knife scene today. It is not the ONLY part, unless you choose to make it so. You can buy plenty of knives on the internet, you can sell plenty of knives on the internet. You can also talk to people you may never see face to face. But if that is all there is to knife collecting for you, I can tell you that you are missing 60-70% of the knife experience.
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I think that we can all agree that shows are great and a good way to meet people and to learn more about knives while getting to hang out with great people who share a common interest.
 
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From my point of view, the internet has proved to be the best thing to happen to me with regards to knifemaking.

Being the slightly stuck in the past freak that I am, I've only had a computer for a couple of years. When I did finally enter the 20th century, I soon found a whole new place to learn about what I love.

I'd been making knives 'seriously' for 3 years at this point (I've always dabbled!) and with much apprehension I decided to post some of my work on here and Britishblades.

The result was quite bizarre I thought, as people in other parts of the UK started to place orders with me almost straight away. Up until this point I'd only sold knives to relatively local people. Even more amazing was once orders from abroad started to come in. No way would this have been possible without the internet.

It has also been exceptionally valuble for furthering my skills. WIP threads from top makers and studying various knives has been a huge learning curve. It's also given me the opportunity to seek help from top makers, all of whom I've asked for advice have been very helpful.

Another big help has been the people I've got to know, both online and those I've met in person due to forums. Many of you on here have helped me with my work more than you perhaps realise. Comments from makers and collectors are very important to me, as it gives me a good idea of where I'm going wrong and what I'm getting right.

As for shows, I can't afford to travel to abroad for them, and in the UK we have one annual knife show along with a few game fairs which give knives a good representation. I've yet to visit any of these, as to be honest I'm not much of a traveller (some might say I'm close to being a hermit:rolleyes:) but for me the internet more than makes up for it.

I still find it very strange that I can google irbailey and see my knives all over the internet. Mind you, I am a bit of a hill billy, so that in itself isn't too surprising.;) I've even got myself one of those website things now...:eek:

All in all, for me the internet is a very valuble part of what I love to do.:thumbup:

Ian
 
I consulted one of my favorite philosophizing minds with the intention of bringing some deeper thought to the general idea behind this thread. I hope you'll get a little something from this post:).

"Enthusiasm is the mother of effort, and without it nothing great was ever achieved"

"Men admire the man who can organize their wishes and thoughts in stone and wood and steel and brass"

"One must be an inventor to read well. There is then creative reading as well as creative writing"

"This time, like all times, is a very good one, if we but know what to do with it"

"We are by nature observers, and thereby learners. That is our permanent state"

"With the past, I have nothing to do; nor with the future. I live now"

-Ralph Waldo Emerson
 
TennKnifeman said:
Balance of a finely crafted knife cannot be transmitted over the internet.

However, for those of us that do attend shows one of the reasons we do has nothing to do with sales. It has to do with friendship, making new friends, enjoying the company of old friends, sharing this unique passion for pieces of sharpened steel.




The internet is an important part of the knife scene today. It is not the ONLY part, unless you choose to make it so. You can buy plenty of knives on the internet, you can sell plenty of knives on the internet. You can also talk to people you may never see face to face. But if that is all there is to knife collecting for you, I can tell you that you are missing 60-70% of the knife experience.
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That pretty much sums it up for me and that final percentage spread is pretty accurate from my experience.

If it was just about buying and selling knives, my interest would reflect that and not much more. I enjoy buying (and the occasional selling), but the most enjoyment comes from the people I have been able to get to know in one degree or another over the years and that has become more important to me than the knives.

Great post Bruce.
 
Some great input from a broad cross-section.

I haven't had a lot of free time, so here are just some random disjointed thoughts.

1) The internet has changed the game - there is no going back to the "good old days" when print media was your only source of information.

2) That that internet has vastly increased access to information, access to purchase opportiunities, access to sale opprtunites, access to custom orders and access to other collectors, I hold to be self evident. It is not "small part" of the custom knife scene. It is a large part - and it is growing.

3) Of course there are down sides - namely, the BS factor of someone with little knowledge and a big opinions. This is amplified by the largely anonymous nature of web forums. That said, most of the regular posters "know" each other, and BS does tend to get called out right quick. And unless your life / knife experience is very different from mine, there's no shortage of BS in the "real world", either. I have had to bite my tongue at some of the snake oil being peddled at shows. It's by far the exception to the rule, but it is there.

4) There is no substitute for attending knife shows - for many of the obvious reasons already covered. But never mind the educational aspect - knife shows are a serious amount of fun, and for true knife nuts, it's the kind of fun that can't be found anyplace else. Knife shows would do better to focus on how to make the event more entertaining for attendees - expanding the concept of the show beyond the floor and beyond show hours - rather than the draconian enforcement of "no pre-sale" laws. That approach misses the point - shows must offer MORE than knives for sale to pull people in. Purchase opportunities on-line far outstrip what any single show has to offer. Sell the experience or fail.

5) While the value of shows should not be dismissed, neither should be be contemptuos of or condescending to those who choose to make the web their primary avenue for participation in the community. Are they missing out? Sure - in my opinion. But who the heck am I to suggest that for them, the experience is anything less than highly rewarding and enjoyable? Better to have them participate here than not at all. Constantly carping on those who choose not to attend shows as if they are somehow failing to meet some moral obligation or only qualify as kindergarden collectors only serves to alienate them. We want more collectors, not less.

6) Too many shows. Yep. But attrition is the only way that can change - no-one is going to volunteer to scrap their particular show for the greater good.

7) I've been a collector pre-internet and post-internet - there is no way I want to go back to the days of having to put a stamp on a letter, stuff it with three dollars and write away for a copy of a maker's brochure just to find out about his knives.

8) I enjoy pretty much all aspects of participation in the custom knife community. Web forums; atending shows and hammer-ins, informal get-togethers with fellow collectors, reading knife publications; writing for knife publications; making the occasional knife; working with makers on custom orders; working with delers to acquire specific pieces; buying / selling / trading with fellow collectors; desiging and using custom knives; giving lectures and presentations; working on the occasional charitable project - the whole 9 yards. These are all parts of the greater whole and all have value to me.

Good discussion, all.

Roger
 
Outstanding Thread.
I am proud to be a Knifemaker and proud of all the friends I have made at both Conventional Knife Shows and on the Internet..
Life is good..
Respect..
[youtube]M8dMxWmrC3s[/youtube]
 
Lorien said:
I consulted one of my favorite philosophizing minds with the intention of bringing some deeper thought to the general idea behind this thread. I hope you'll get a little something from this post:).

"Enthusiasm is the mother of effort, and without it nothing great was ever achieved"

"Men admire the man who can organize their wishes and thoughts in stone and wood and steel and brass"

"One must be an inventor to read well. There is then creative reading as well as creative writing"

"This time, like all times, is a very good one, if we but know what to do with it"

"We are by nature observers, and thereby learners. That is our permanent state"

"With the past, I have nothing to do; nor with the future. I live now"

-Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Lorien, Good post, but that second quote is clearly not based on fact.....after all, everyone knows that brass has no class;):D

Ian
 
RogerP said:
5) While the value of shows should not be dismissed, neither should be be contemptuos of or condescending to those who choose to make the web their primary avenue for participation in the community. Are they missing out? Sure - in my opinion. But who the heck am I to suggest that for them, the experience is anything less than highly rewarding and enjoyable? Better to have them participate here than not at all. Constantly carping on those who choose not to attend shows as if they are somehow failing to meet some moral obligation or only qualify as kindergarden collectors only serves to alienate them. We want more collectors, not less.
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Thank you for saying that Roger. I sometimes feel the sting of what you're talking about here. I mean, I shouldn't really care, but no one likes being condescended to.

Ian, lol :).
 
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