The Killing Knife ~ Deisgn

S

shane justice

Joined
May 12, 2003
Messages
1,606
Guys,

I started a thread in the Makers forum about this...

But also wanted your views...

I apologize if I do not know what a "tactical knife" is...

or for that matter...I do not know what a "fighting kinfe" is...

I do not know how to "neutralize a threat"...

I never was too smart...

Be that as it may...

All knives can be used to injure...to one extent or another...

but recently I have come to view the Killing knife as a highly specialized tool..

What are your ideas on design characteristics for this type of tool?

PLease...no wild crazy 700 bladed klingon battle toys...

Shane
 
IMO, todays tactical knives are completely useless as a tool. The coating makes them penetrate poorly. The handles sometimes have so many angles and wierd points that I wonder how they are belt carryable. The ricasso is big making cutting wood during bushcraft hard to handle. And the blade is wicked thick, but it has a sissy hollow ground edge.

All these factors combined with the testamony of soldiers that they use their knives as tools make me a very anti-tak knife guy. The mortal sin: I think Busse's are ugly, and not very functional. There, I said it. Now I can wait for my flaming.
 
Why do you want to know?

And beyond that, what scenario do you envision using such a knife? Weapons as diverse as khuks, push daggers, rondel daggers, and stillettos evolved to kill, in different scenarios. So did "small swords," cavalry sabres, katanas, and cutlasses. Does your weapon need to be concealed, or carried openly? Got to match your scenario, user, and opponent to really come up with an answer.

Given adequate training, an unarmoured opponent, and open carry ... evolution tended to favour killing with the point. Swiftly piercing a vital organ is more reliably deadly than badly slashing a torso or limb, and exposes the attacker to less risk ... because your distance is further. But it takes lots of training, especially if your opponent has also been trained. And while mortally wounded, your opponent may not be incapacitated - lots of stories from duels of people dying from pierced organs, but who killed their opponents first, despite their own wounds.

Less highly trained attackers tended to have better luck with slashing weapons - e.g. heavy cavalry sabres, cutlasses. Both the attacks and the defences are more intuitive, and given enough power, can be devasating. But against a fighter trained to use the point - usually the thruster won.

Translated to contemporary knife design - a trained knife fighter might prefer a well balanced, stiff, primarily thrusting design - blade 8-9 inches. Sharpened on both edges, with a decent guard. A less highly trained knife fighter might prefer something more optimized for slashing - but still with the knife tip in line with the handle.

t.
 
aproy1101 said:
The mortal sin: I think Busse's are ugly, and not very functional. There, I said it. Now I can wait for my flaming.
Click to expand...

HAHAHAHA!!! someone said it! i won't agree completely, i think some of em are pretty damn sexy, but just as many aint. it's the appeal of infi, a grade of steel no one strictly needs but who wouldn't want to chop a cinder block with it? when some kid buys into it and tries it then breaks the knife, he gets flamed as if he's in the depths of the pit.

as to the topic of the thread, anything light, sharp, and pointy. katana, clip point bowie, kobra, a wooden stake, all gravy. unless you count the buck 119, which is marketed as a hunter, i don't have any killing/fighting knives. if black means tactical, i have a zytel m16edc with a blade smaller than a finger.

i don't see what the big deal is with having a knife that only sheds blood. i'd rather have a knife that does everything, which is why i'm mostly on the forums for khuks and SAKs. it should be able to gut a deer, drop a tree, pry open a door, defend the house, and if the need arises fry an egg.
 
Yup magnum.

I've got two "tool" style khuks, and a few "tool" style fixed blades. And SAKs. While I've read a lot about arms and armour, and fenced for a number of years ... I've no need for a special purpose killing knife.

t
 
aproy1101 said:
IMO, todays tactical knives are completely useless as a tool. The coating makes them penetrate poorly. The handles sometimes have so many angles and wierd points that I wonder how they are belt carryable. The ricasso is big making cutting wood during bushcraft hard to handle. And the blade is wicked thick, but it has a sissy hollow ground edge.

All these factors combined with the testamony of soldiers that they use their knives as tools make me a very anti-tak knife guy. The mortal sin: I think Busse's are ugly, and not very functional. There, I said it. Now I can wait for my flaming.
Click to expand...

I doubt you will be flamed for saying that.

I will point out that you are describing some other knives, and then mention Busse as not being functional- although they do not suffer from the flaws you describe. I use all my Busse knives, and they are quite functional. Many have a finger Choil that allows you to choke up right to the edge for detailed work. None of them suffer from little sissy hollow grinds.

If you don't like coatings, that is a common opinion, and I also prefer a satin finish. You are welcome to think what you want about the aesthetics of a knife, but I obviously do not find them ugly. To say they are not functional tells me you have little experience with the knives. To each his own. If you want to get flamed, you will be better served making flame bait comments about some other knife companies. ;)

As for ugly, I think some are more beautiful than others, the one in my sig line I am particularly fond of. I don't know how anyone could find it ugly.



As for the original topic, "Killing knives" I don't personally have any need or use for such an item. Most people who collect Fighters and daggers never use them at all. I prefer utility oriented knives that I can use all the time. If I had to be in a knife fight, I would want a sword. (or a gun) :)

I have never really heard the term "killing knife" used. As such, I have no idea what type of knife that would be. Daggers, maybe?
 
First off. Just to clarify.

Do you want a purely killing knife? for nothing but cold bloded assasination?

or that jack of all trades thats sometimes have been issued to soldiers "the combat knife" thats realy a utility knife that every soldier needs. {& will kill but has no finesse for prescion work}

Spiral
 
Rat Finkenstein said:
I doubt you will be flamed for saying that.

I will point out that you are describing some other knives, and then mention Busse as not being functional- although they do not suffer from the flaws you describe. I use all my Busse knives, and they are quite functional. Many have a finger Choil that allows you to choke up right to the edge for detailed work. None of them suffer from little sissy hollow grinds.

If you don't like coatings, that is a common opinion, and I also prefer a satin finish. You are welcome to think what you want about the aesthetics of a knife, but I obviously do not find them ugly. To say they are not functional tells me you have little experience with the knives. To each his own. If you want to get flamed, you will be better served making flame bait comments about some other knife companies. ;)

As for ugly, I think some are more beautiful than others, the one in my sig line I am particularly fond of. I don't know how anyone could find it ugly.



As for the original topic, "Killing knives" I don't personally have any need or use for such an item. Most people who collect Fighters and daggers never use them at all. I prefer utility oriented knives that I can use all the time. If I had to be in a knife fight, I would want a sword. (or a gun) :)

I have never really heard the term "killing knife" used. As such, I have no idea what type of knife that would be. Daggers, maybe?
Click to expand...

Yes, you're right, I don't own any Busse's. Too rich for my blood. At first glance I really like that knife in your sig, but then I notice the innability to choke up to the edge, and it looses some luster. Still pretty though, I'll give you that. I have hefted several Busse's. Ehhh.

I wasn't trying to get flamed by posting that opinion, or I'd have done it in the Busse section, obviously. Its an honest opinion that I've held for quite a while, and never expressed until now, and with trepedation even now. You Busse guys can be really aggressive.

They did have pretty girls at their booth at the knife show, whatever that is worth.:yawn:

One thing I really like about the knife community is its variety. Knives and people. There are a lot of knives that I don't like out there, others do. More power to you brothers. No offense intended by my opinion.
 
My idea of a good killin' knife is the blued stiletto running diagonally across the top of this picture:

DCP_1594.jpg


DCP_1171.jpg
 
aproy1101 said:
The mortal sin: I think Busse's are ugly, and not very functional. There, I said it. Now I can wait for my flaming.
Click to expand...

OMFG YOU FLAMED BUSSE riogiosfidosfos...

Okay, enough of that. ;) I actually think most of them aren't all that pretty either, but pretty is as pretty does I suppose. Back to the OP's question...

There are a multitude of designs out there with killing in mind and they vary quite a bit. How appropriate they are depends on one's background. If there is one common thread unifying them all, it's that a knife made strictly for killing tends to not be very good for much else.

Over time, most cultures tended to favor a design with an emphasis on thrusting, so much so that some cannot really cut at all. Of course that brings up another question: if a fighting knife is made to thrust only and has no edge, is it still a knife?

If you're asking about what specific features are desirable that again depends on who will be using it and what the context is.
 
from back when they really were the choice:

the ballock: (everyone carried one like this in the 15th-16th century)

ballock.jpg


the bell bowie (bottom one) or any of the other bowies

bowie.jpg


a nice damascus dagger for concealability, victorian.

dagger0.jpg


or a phillipino gunung

gun1.jpg


or the double edged kindjal, a balkan assassin's choice

kindjal.jpg



or the single edged peshkabz version from afghanistan/pakistan khyber pass area

peshkabz.jpg


all will do the job, like was said, which one would depend on the carry conditions, local laws and customs and your own strengths , training and preference.

if you take magic into account, this pamour (laminated steel/nickel steel) badek from malaysia has a dangerous spirit living in it that makes the knife only safe for combat, not for decoration or other magic purposes. needs to be treated with respect and given fragrant oils every few weeks.

badek2.jpg
 
Don't statistics show that the most common killing knife is a common kitchen knife?
 
You know how easy is it in combat to push a knife into somebody versus cut them?

I'd think something like a very sharp khuk that could sever an artery when swung would put somebody out of commission pretty quick.
 
It seems there are too many variables involved to identify a specific design. I suggest a working definition - "Whatever the last guy standing is holding."

Eric
 
Fairburn Sykes Dagger is what i would think of for a fighting/killing knife but what the hell do i know about such things
 
If you just want to kill somebody you want something easy to conceal with good penetration. Ice pick or screwdriver with taped handle, drop and walk. If you want something for a knife fight, bring a gun.
Terry
 
Well...I'm jus' small town white trash, and don't do nuthin' more excitin' than an ocassional bit of woodsloafing, so this is perhaps a bit outside of my scope of expertise....

I'd consider a Crossada or a decent bowie. (spear point, foot and a half long, with a large double guard and quillons)

http://www.szaboinc.com/index1.html

I would not be interested in radically recurved blades, exotic handle styles, sawteeth, super narrow blade geometry, or exotic less than lethal features, such as those found on the old Spyderco Guntings, or the Ontario Abaniko's.

Having said all that, I've often heard that more people are killed with machetes and kitchen knives than any other edged implement out there, and for all the fuss we make, I don't imagine the difference between a "fighting knife" and a decent machete, baseball bat, or axe handle is nearly as significant as us knife nuts like to pretend.
 
Errrmm...Most of the serious folks opine that the best for combat/survival is a six to seven inch straight-bladed knife. Like the venerable Ka-bar. Case could be made for others though I suppose..

TWBryan
 
Magnum22 said:
HAHAHAHA!!! someone said it! i won't agree completely, i think some of em are pretty damn sexy, but just as many aint. it's the appeal of infi, a grade of steel no one strictly needs but who wouldn't want to chop a cinder block with it? when some kid buys into it and tries it then breaks the knife, he gets flamed as if he's in the depths of the pit.
Click to expand...

I think you're thinking of strider...
 
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