The knife making market: Self promotion vs no self promotion..

Kentucky

Kentucky

Joined
Dec 13, 2008
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Me and several other makers have talked over the years about this..First off Im not taking digs at anyone who self promotes, honestly..If thats ok with you and works for you then thats great..My real question is are the people who DONT self promote missing out? It often seems that two makers can make two identical knives and ask greatly differeing prices..Now Im not really talking about the ABS rankings helping you sell..Thats somewhat different..Im honestly not talking about myself, Ive never really wanted to be a full time maker.
The question has always made me think though......Is letting your work stand on its own enough in todays market? Or is it imperitive that you hit the shows(Maybe magazine pics) and self promote to make sells? What do you think?
 
Nothing is imperative, but it sure don't hurt. I think that self promotion and being in the public eye in general lets collectors know that you will probably be around for a while and as such, you stuff is more likely to remain collectable. I have had at least one major collector ask me how many knives I make a year and that seems to be another factor that will possibly convince folks like that to buy one knife from you, or even better, more than one..
Kentucky said:
Me and several other makers have talked over the years about this..First off Im not taking digs at anyone who self promotes, honestly..If thats ok with you and works for you then thats great..My real question is are the people who DONT self promote missing out? It often seems that two makers can make two identical knives and ask greatly differeing prices..Now Im not really talking about the ABS rankings helping you sell..Thats somewhat different..Im honestly not talking about myself, Ive never really wanted to be a full time maker.
The question has always made me think though......Is letting your work stand on its own enough in todays market? Or is it imperitive that you hit the shows(Maybe magazine pics) and self promote to make sells? What do you think?
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Letting your work stand on it's own and speak for itself is enough, but...

… nothing wrong with promoting yourself or others promoting your work for you as long as it's honest and sincere.

I think a lot of times makers are just very enthused about their work and it often gets taken as aggressive self promotion…

self promotion vs enthusiasm maybe?

It helps to be excited and enthused about your work.
 
What's the difference in price between a Jim Merritt knife and a Bob Loveless knife?

The difference is thousands, tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands of $ all due to name brand recognition.
 
The term 'Build it and they will Come' doesn't necessarily apply in knife making.

The work should stand on it's own. But you have to show it to people. ;)
 
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Tai Goo said:
Letting your work stand on it's own and speak for itself is enough, but...

… nothing wrong with promoting yourself or others promoting your work for you as long as it's honest and sincere.

I think a lot of times makers are just very enthused about their work and it often gets taken as aggressive self promotion…

self promotion vs enthusiasm maybe?

It helps to be excited and enthused about your work.
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This sums it up for me. Well said. I think asking what you need, in order to continue doing what you do is reasonable. If the sales aren't there, it's time to change what you do! You are putting yourself out there everytime a blade leaves your shop and will only last as long as you measure up to your own claims. HONESTY.

Rick
 
I've started businesses in several different industries. Marketing and perception is everything. It helps if you can produce a quality product or service, but it's not a prerequisite to success although some may think so. (if it were, there'd be few paki and chinese blades on the market) Life is full of prime examples of less than stellar products or services that continue to thrive due to good marketing. Everyone can probably name a product or service that was outstanding but went belly up. There's several examples of this that I've noticed in the past on this forum! Did they make inferior knives or did they fail at getting the word out at how good their stuff was?

Everyone judges success differently. If you judge success to mean the ability to sell your product at top dollar and do so day in and day out, then you may eventually get there by producing a quality product, (or you may not, see above), but I'll guarantee you you'll get there a lot quicker and be a lot busier with good marketing.

Why does one maker get top dollar when another equally talented maker struggles to sell his stuff at a loss? It's all in the perception of the buyer. Why does a Loveless or a Randall bring lots more than a Akers or Davis blade? Will they cut better? Are they made out of better materials? Are the designs superior? Not from what I can see. It's all how these makers are perceived by the buyers and a lot of that perception was due to marketing (promotion) and still is to this day. Whether they did it their self or paid others to market their blades and abilities, it's how they got to the top.

Just look at some of the more successful makers today. You see their stuff everywhere, you hear their names and you see their fanboys on forums touting how great their stuff is and some may have a huge string of YouTube videos showing off their knives. Whether you agree with this business model or not, their growth is not happening by accident.

So yeah, you can make it (depends on your definition of "making it") with a good product alone. But you'll be swimming up stream and the odds of you succeeding are lower than if you throw some well planned and well executed marketing/promotion behind it. And that can feel like a full time job also!!
 
There is a huge difference between honest promotion and marketing hype. One is ethical and smart(from a business perspective) and the other is deceptive and foolish.
 
It depends on what your goal are as with any industry. For comparison think a large manuf. like Spyderco, Ontario, Cold Steel etc. vs the individual maker w/ his own shop.

If your goal is to make the best knives you possibly can, the way you wish to make them, then self-promotion/marketing probably isn't a true priority. The drawback to that is you probably won't make a huge profit(you'd probably be lucky to pay for production and some household bills) as you won't be producing enough product, compared to the larger manufacturers. Quality over quantity.

Versely, if your goal is to make money, and have a larger operation, then marketing would certainly be important especially in the beginning of your career. Drawback to that is a loss in quality control, premium materials(ivory, fossil, damascus, super steels etc) would probably be too expensive to produce and sell on a full production scale and you'd be limited to "sprint runs" if anything, you'd be much less "hands on" in your products developement by definition. Quantity over quality.

Sidenote: Just think for second about infomercials. How often do you see an item of "QUALITY". Good marketing could sell a bag of raw sewage to a sickening number of people. Or even just "repeatitive marketing". Tell most people something is good long enough, and they will buy it.
 
Rick Marchand said:
There is a huge difference between honest promotion and marketing hype. One is ethical and smart(from a business perspective) and the other is deceptive and foolish.
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That is true. Ethically there is a difference but let's face it. Hype sells, honesty doesn't, sadly. By the time the hype is over, the money is made and the seller is long gone(so to speak)
 
Kentucky,
Are you speaking about posting knives for folks to see here on the forums, or are talking about all of the available outlets? Youtube, facebook, twitter, etc..... I'm just curious.

Personally, I think you'd be silly not to try to promote your work in some way. You could make the best knife in the world, but what good is it if nobody sees it. The more people that see your work the better.. Just my opinion.
 
jonny, honestly I wasnt thinking about either..Just pondering the question really..Lisa(my wife) has a website and a ebay store where she sells strikers kits and other blacksmith type wares..She does the craft fairs and gets a lot of good feedback via word of mouth..I use to run the little side business but I started teaching her about 7 years ago and give it to her..Im just a teacher/hobbie guy now..Ive tried to get her interested in the internet forum community but she just dosnt care much for it:confused:
.
What do you think about the otehr media outlets? Youtube,facebook and such...I had never gave it much thought to be honest..
 
Dave Behrens said:
It depends on what your goal are as with any industry. For comparison think a large manuf. like Spyderco, Ontario, Cold Steel etc. vs the individual maker w/ his own shop.

If your goal is to make the best knives you possibly can, the way you wish to make them, then self-promotion/marketing probably isn't a true priority. The drawback to that is you probably won't make a huge profit(you'd probably be lucky to pay for production and some household bills) as you won't be producing enough product, compared to the larger manufacturers. Quality over quantity.

Versely, if your goal is to make money, and have a larger operation, then marketing would certainly be important especially in the beginning of your career. Drawback to that is a loss in quality control, premium materials(ivory, fossil, damascus, super steels etc) would probably be too expensive to produce and sell on a full production scale and you'd be limited to "sprint runs" if anything, you'd be much less "hands on" in your products developement by definition. Quantity over quality.

Sidenote: Just think for second about infomercials. How often do you see an item of "QUALITY". Good marketing could sell a bag of raw sewage to a sickening number of people. Or even just "repeatitive marketing". Tell most people something is good long enough, and they will buy it.
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Dave Behrens said:
That is true. Ethically there is a difference but let's face it. Hype sells, honesty doesn't, sadly. By the time the hype is over, the money is made and the seller is long gone(so to speak)
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Some of your statements suggest you can't be a dedicated, honest maker with a quality product and self promote? Is this correct or am I misinterpreting? I get the feeling you are categorizing self-promotion in two camps........... Honest/Ineffective vs. Hype/Effective.
 
Rick Marchand said:
Some of your statements suggest you can't be a dedicated, honest maker with a quality product and self promote? Is this correct or am I misinterpreting? I get the feeling you are categorizing self-promotion in two camps........... Honest/Ineffective vs. Hype/Effective.
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First question: No, you can be all of those things, but you might not be as finacially successful as one who spends that effort of producing a higher quality product on promoting. You have to decide which path is right for you.

Second Question: Short answer yes with an *: Honesty is not neccassarily ineffective, but IMO it may be less effective financially. Hype is scarily effective in selling anything whether it be blades, cars, cleaning products, or even political agendas.
 
I totally agree that choosing the path of deception and hype can be more profitable in the short term but when we are speaking of tangible products.... it can only last as long as it meets the expectations set forth in its promotion. Sorry if I misunderstood you before... I think I know where you are coming from, now.

Rick
 
Rick Marchand said:
I totally agree that choosing the path of deception and hype can be more profitable in the short term but when we are speaking of tangible products.... it can only last as long as it meets the expectations set forth in its promotion.

Rick
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That's correct. :)
 
This is kind of a tough one to pin down.

It was mentioned previously that hype in the form of YouTube videos and fanboy postings is kind of the dark side of promotion... but in reality, that form of promotion cannot be described as "self promotion" since it is being done by others. Maybe the maker's initial YouTube post is self promoting, but all of the reaction to it and subsequent posts triggered by it are not under the control of the maker.

I won't name names (it shouldn't be necessary), but we've all seen this sort of hype, and I've noticed most folks react to it in a negative way. It just feels wrong. But the fact that the fanboys are the ones creating much of it shouldn't reflect badly on the maker... and yet, somehow, it does. I know that I am personally so put off by this sort of hype that I won't buy any of those knives. But I'll wager, for every old codger like me (and maybe you) that is put off by the hype, there's probably 10 young fanboys in the making that get psyched by the claims. Kids are more vulnerable to this asort of group-think than us old folks.

- Greg
 
I think that even among the type of folks that you are talking about who may have a "fan" following and promote aggresively, there are the "good"and the "bad". Mike Snody falls into the "good" category, IMO. Yeah, you may find his promotion methods a bit odd, but they work and I have yet to hear anyone say anything bad about him or his knives. Quite the contrary. On the other hand, you do have some real schlocks out there who have nothing but hype to offer or worse, are scam artists. I see some guys being constantly defended by many their fans. Good guys generally don't need that kind of assistance from the public.;)
tryppyr said:
This is kind of a tough one to pin down.

It was mentioned previously that hype in the form of YouTube videos and fanboy postings is kind of the dark side of promotion... but in reality, that form of promotion cannot be described as "self promotion" since it is being done by others. Maybe the maker's initial YouTube post is self promoting, but all of the reaction to it and subsequent posts triggered by it are not under the control of the maker.

I won't name names (it shouldn't be necessary), but we've all seen this sort of hype, and I've noticed most folks react to it in a negative way. It just feels wrong. But the fact that the fanboys are the ones creating much of it shouldn't reflect badly on the maker... and yet, somehow, it does. I know that I am personally so put off by this sort of hype that I won't buy any of those knives. But I'll wager, for every old codger like me (and maybe you) that is put off by the hype, there's probably 10 young fanboys in the making that get psyched by the claims. Kids are more vulnerable to this asort of group-think than us old folks.

- Greg
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True, hype is short term, but remember the business model, whenever the hype is exposed as exaggerated or outright untrue you just either produce "new and improved" products using the same material under different names or implant words like EXTREME!!, or ULTIMATE!! etc., or you point the blame at "faulty manufacturing" and state "things have changed" or "under new management" and the process can begin anew.

True honesty, true quality, and consistentcy in both is what will bring long term success. A bit of humility when screw-ups are made doesn't hurt as well:D.
 
You guys!

… Being “rich and famous” is just flat out a pain in the ass!

A man deserves to get paid for it… :D
 
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