The Logic of Heat Treating Oils

[Chant]

Variables are not our friends!

I like that. I think I'm going to post it on my shop wall.

The bladesmith, or blacksmith who made tools that worked in this venue had one thing few of the knifemakers today had. If their knives worked their product was in demand, if their tools were inferior their market was lacking.

Yep. I suspect that, during some of the darker eras, if their tools were inferior, their market probably shortened their lives significantly, and abruptly.

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

Geez Kevin... don't you have some edge packing to go do?

Actually Nick, today is Sunday, and this is the first day MI has reached 60F this year, and it isn't going to last so I have time, between flipping the steaks on the grill, to play on the laptop in the gazebo

...I once had a VERY WELL KNOWN and respected Mastersmith chastise me in a heat-treating seminar...
...He said, "I hear all you young guys spouting off about control, but I don't hear you talking about better blades. I don't care what kind of control you may have, it's about how good the knives are."

Oh boy, do I hear you there Nick, I know exactly what you are talking about and I think it is sad and very tragic for our business. Those guys do get hostile and it is because they can feel their pedestal wobbling when some young guy has found a way to jump years forward without their invaluable wisdom. Change can hurt, it is called growing pains.

This is one of the reasons I am so passionate about this topic, I wasted too many years blindly following the folksy alternative wasy to skin a cat, because I was told they were THE way to do it. Then a friend gave me a Metallurgical text book to read any my world changed. In short order I was able to predict and reproduce results consitantly in ways I never thought possible. I had been told that those books were not written for knifemakers and just didn't apply. but I found that that was only the case because somewhere along the line many bladesmiths had somehow written their own rules on performance and what a "good knife" is in order to further their own agendas. All while the real world, and the material sciences that built it, continued on.

Now, this whole steel thing is much more wonderous and interesting to me than I ever imagined while looking at it through a crystal clear magnifying lense and not the rosey tinted blinders that I was first offered.

As for the salt baths, I have changed my tune a bit on that, my enthusiasm for the power of that tool had me telling everybody to get them for a while, now I realize that they may not be the best thing for every style of knife making and we each need to find our own path. Although I obsess over the unparralled power of the analysis that my microscopes have given me, I strongly suggest that taking this whole thing that far is ludicrous for anybody less neurotic than myself, they are just not necesarry to make good knives. But they were necessarry to me because of my need to take on the status quo with evidence strong enough to overcome "Mr. X" says so.

Ed, I was glad to see you take an interest in this thread as well, since I know you have mentioned many times the benefits of a good quenching oil. While those who have not experienced it may not get the point of your hours to siphon cold quenching oil. I have a similar story to relate, I was shocked the first year I handled Park #50 in a MI winter. The stuff will literally freeze in a very crystaline manner- as in it will freeze just like water/ice, not just get really sluggish, but actually form jagged crystals on the surface. They say it may be the closest to water, and I am a believer. This is not just any old oil and doesn't behave as such.

Salt baths, microscopes or even rockwell testers can be very expensive lengths to go to to jsut make a knife, but a good quench oil is one of the cheapest investments that anybody can make to quickly achieve very good results.

 

[fitzo]

I have nothing to add to this conversation except to give HUGE KUDOS to Kevin Cashen for his almost single-handed quest to promote and defend the appropriateness of metallurgical insight to help knifemakers produce better blades. Many have just given up and said, "Fine, fool, why should I care what you do?", and the online knifemaking world has lost some valuable resources as a consequence. Why Kevin has elected to put his back against the wall and choose to take this on his shoulders I do not know. What I do know is that I am grateful for it.

I have been a science geek my entire life, and I know no other way. I have always been one to be uncomfortable with accepting myth on faith alone. I am thankful for an opportunity to have someone teach in a way I can feel comfortable with.

Thank you Mr. Cashen! You do a huge service for what often seems like little reward. You da man!:thumbup:

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

Thank you fitzo, I am humbled and very grateful for your words of encouragement, but once again let me be the burr under folks' saddle that makes them take a closer look themselves and never allow me to become one of the unquestionable gurus.

The first time I met Tim Zowada, he had the nerve to question my heros and I left his shop not liking him much and bent on proving him wrong! That objective got me to read that first metallurgy book and it wasn't long before I returned to Tim's shop to chat some more. Now Mr. Zowada is one of the best damned friends I have and he will call me for answers just as much as I would call him. That is the power of asking questions that nobody else dares to! And I would much rather have folks despise me enough to bring about the same results, than to just go with whatever I say.

And I know that is not a danger with you fitzo, you are a bonafide question asker

edited to add- P.S. let's not forget to give some kudos to my friend Mr. John Frankl for really sticking his neck out by starting with this touchy topic.

 

[fitzo]

Thank you fitzo, I am humbled and very grateful for your words of encouragement, but once again let me be the burr under folks' saddle that makes them take a closer look themselves and never allow me to become one of the unquestionable gurus.

A guru is one who encourages people to accept without proof. The old "trust me" con. That's religion. The high priest is affronted by questioning. Dogma reigns supreme and new interpretation is called heresy.

A teacher is one who explains through logic and facts until the student grasps the concept and can think for themselves. The teacher is rewarded by seeing a student get to the point where they can pose a question, then research it and experiment to answer themselves. Being called a "high priest" would be a sign of failure.

Which category you fit in is readily apparent.............. Personally, I can usually tell by the style of writing.

BTW, I hold Zowada responsible also.....LOL. Spherical forges and watercooled nozzles and a bootfull of brass when we made our first attempt at mokume together. Dang techboy.... I'll forever be indebted to him.

 

[fitzo]

Yeap, props to John Frankl for having the guts to start this thread. I'm not surprised at all that he would ask the question from the wee bit I know him. I admire the fact that he would post it, realizing the potential for finding himself in a firefight.

Well done, John. :thumbup:

 

[brash]

I once had a VERY WELL KNOWN and respected Mastersmith chastise me in a heat-treating seminar (in front of about 40 or 50 people) because I brought up my salt bath and the control factor of +/- 3 degrees F I have with it.

He said, "I hear all you young guys spouting off about control, but I don't hear you talking about better blades. I don't care what kind of control you may have, it's about how good the knives are."

Well, I feel that if you have better control, it's JUST A GIVEN that you'll be making better product. No matter what we're talking about.... tires, rocket ships, spoons, parachutes, knives... WHATEVER!

Variables are not our friends!

What the master smith may have meant is that technology is not a substitute for knowledge and experience. It's the same philosophy as that behind teaching kids math, not just how to use a calculator.

Of course, he might just have been jealous that he didn't get that kind of accuracy while he was learning.

 

[brash]

A guru is one who encourages people to accept without proof. The old "trust me" con. That's religion. The high priest is affronted by questioning. Dogma reigns supreme and new interpretation is called heresy.

To continue your analogy: One also has to be careful of the opposite reaction, where every new interpretation is hailed as better than anything before. And, worse, where every new interpretation is held up as a necessary replacement of the last one.

(And, as a "religious" man, I won't go into your unfair generalization of religion as a whole. )

The funny thing is, I think I was really the only person who argued against the original post, and I wasn't even arguing against the idea that quenching oil was better, only against the idea that anyone who uses anything else is some sort of fool. And, it turns out, that wasn't even what John meant!

As a pretty new knifemaker still messing around and learning stuff, I didn't even know this was a hot topic... I certainly picked the wrong thread to get involved in.

 

[fitzo]

........(And, as a "religious" man, I won't go into your unfair generalization of religion as a whole. )

I studied religion academically and have read in religions and spirituality both for many years. I don't argue religion with anyone because of that background; because "religious" people usually see me as some kind of debbil. I am fairly certain my views are radically different than anyone who characterizes themselves as "religious", and we would find little common ground on the topic. I have an admittedly jaundiced view of organized religion. Thus, this is the last I'll say on it, lest I offend more. I will say, though, that as long as your religiosity doesn't interfere with me and it makes you a good person, then I am happy for you.

Be well. :thumbup:

 

[brash]

I studied religion academically and have read in religions and spirituality both for many years. I don't argue religion with anyone because of that background; because "religious" people usually see me as some kind of debbil. I am fairly certain my views are radically different than anyone who characterizes themselves as "religious", and we would find little common ground on the topic.

Yeah, arguing religion is pretty fruitless anyway.

When I was in middle school I was very, very atheist. My best friend came from a very, very fundamentalist Christian family. His mother scared the hell out of me when I went over to his house one day. She told me that if I didn't sign some statement about accepting Jesus as my savior written in some bible she gave me, that I was going to burn in hell for eternity. And she described what it would be like to burn for eternity. I didn't sign it... it still amuses me that I eventually became a Christian, even after that. Anyway, I have very distinct memories of arguing with him... great middle-schoolish arguments about, "If God created everything, what created God?" and, "If God can do anything, can he build a wall he can't jump over? How can he do anything if he can't jump over it?"

I've since learned a lot about religious arguments. The vast majority of the time it's as if the people arguing are speaking different languages. Even when they think they are speaking the same language. To argue on the same plane, one party has to give up premises that they feel are true, and usually no one wants to do that (or feels it is going to be any use). I've been in plenty of arguments since those in middle school, and most of them aren't any different!

Ok, I'm just rambling now. I need to go to bed.

 

[John Frankl]

Thanks to everybody participating. I feel so very fortunate to be a part of the bladesmithing community. I have never met a more generous group (can you imagine a bunch of lawyers sitting around giving free advice in order to make other lawyers more competetive, for one example?). Kevin Cashen continues to be an inspiration, Ed Fowler is tireless in his writing, speaking, and teaching, and has been for a very long time. Nick Wheeler is always ready to help out with the vast amount of skill and information he has acquired in a relatively short time. And Fitzo has generously helped me a bunch on line and in chat rooms though we have never met.

I hope this thread can stay alive as long as it is useful. To that end...

Ed Fowler wrote:

"We can only hope that one day a rating system for knife performace will be developed, one that those who wish can subscribe to and their knives will be described on the basis of total performance."

This sounds like a good idea. Obviously all makers would all try to put together a good overall package with some shooting more for toughness, others for strength. This would let educated customers decide on knives based on both attributes and aesthetics.

"There is no question in my mind but that bladesmisths of old who at first gained reputation through men who had to fight with their knives knew the quality was there. I also believe that these great knives came from the agricultural community who had needed tools to harvest grain. The bladesmith, or blacksmith who made tools that worked in this venue had one thing few of the knifemakers today had. If their knives worked their product was in demand, if their tools were inferior their market was lacking."

I respectfully disagree. In random cases this was probably true. In other cases, people did not have much data with which to compare blades. And any blade will hold up better than flesh in a knife fight. The same would go for agricultural implements. Most steel will do pretty well against corn or sugar cane, and many blacksmiths in small towns may not have had any competition, forcing customers their way whether their products were great or just average.

"Today our metals are much better than those they had towork with, we have no excuse for not developing our steels to their highest level of potenital. The bladesmith of today is in command of the art, the tools to evaluate performace are available in his shop. Science if it chooses can explain the art of performace, but rarely leads the venture."

Again, since you wrote the above, what is your logic for continuing to heat treat using a torch? This is a hard question for me to ask, as I know some may think I am being rude. But I am not. Neither am I saying your blades are not great, but, according to your own logic, they may be capable of being significantly better and more consistently so if you were to choose to explore new heat treating regimens.

"While debates like this appear vengeful and many will be more comfortable keeping their head down, I encourage you to stick you neck out, share your thoughts, enjoy the target practice it will draw and must maybe another who reads will try to improve on our champion lady knife."

Thank you. I am definitely sticking my neck out on this one. And I am being sincere, and very much want to hear your answers.

I'll close saying that I respect Ed very much. He may not remember it, but we met in Oregon a few years ago when I showed him my JS cut and bend knife. It passed with a lot of help from his articles, and he was very positive and encouraging to me and just about everyone else he met. I continue to respect and learn from him.

Thanks,

John

 

[Dan Gray]

"Today our metals are much better than those they had towork with, we have no excuse for not developing our steels to their highest level of potenital. The bladesmith of today is in command of the art, the tools to evaluate performace are available in his shop. Science if it chooses can explain the art of performace, but rarely leads the venture."

Again, since you wrote the above, what is your logic for continuing to heat treat using a torch? This is a hard question for me to ask, as I know some may think I am being rude. But I am not. Neither am I saying your blades are not great, but, according to your own logic, they may be capable of being significantly better and more consistently so if you were to choose to explore new heat treating regimens.

"While debates like this appear vengeful and many will be more comfortable keeping their head down, I encourage you to stick you neck out, share your thoughts, enjoy the target practice it will draw and must maybe another who reads will try to improve on our champion lady knife."

Thank you. I am definitely sticking my neck out on this one. And I am being sincere, and very much want to hear your answers.

I'll close saying that I respect Ed very much. He may not remember it, but we met in Oregon a few years ago when I showed him my JS cut and bend knife. It passed with a lot of help from his articles, and he was very positive and encouraging to me and just about everyone else he met. I continue to respect and learn from him.

Thanks,

John

John
I still use a touch on small blades. over 30 years now.
and I still feel they come out very well.

to say it's can't be done this way and done well is from those that may not be able to do it well this way, it's like saying I can't get good result doing it this way so no one can. I'm not saying that you have ever said this and I'm not pointing fingers at anyone.

the feel with a finger can pick up things that a tool can't.
some of the most actuate machine work has been done by hand.
for instance hand, scraping in, a column for a Reid surface grinder.

watching the steel as it's getting ready for the quench and seeing when it's ready you can't really time
because of the variables , thickness, room temp, oven variances, more power consumption from an other circuit maybe causing a bit lower power the temp reading just plain may be off, ecct.. timing tables is good for those that can't do it other ways.
but I don't say it's all a bad thing either..why do they have directions on the back of a paint can? we all should know how to paint right?

there are some here that will say you can't get constant results from a torch, well they or you or the guy that tried it a few times may not be able to or want to for that mater, but to say I, ED or maybe Brian can't achieve it,,, he needs to reevaluate his thought and prove that it can't be done, not just say it can't be done.
I'm not getting on anyone's case here,

Kevin when you used the pedestal analogy and said you were rethinking the salt baths, and Nicks adventure, it made me think, it's easy to discount long time craftsmanship that many will never master solely because they can not put the time in on it or his own ability may not even allow it..again I'm not pointing at you either..just because I mention you..

but I'm just saying, it's easy to lose sight of an ability that some never master but others can. By all means I'm not saying I can or have done this ,But I'm happy with what I can do, to date, and I still look for ways to better myself.
sometimes what someone doesn't know or hasn't seen doesn't mean it Can't be done,, it just means maybe he can't do it...to say it can't be done should never be said. it puts us in the main stream of things, it limits us and then we've done and said all this in vain with close minds..

the words "it can't be done" bothers me greatly.. I do wished I was better at words..the guy that tore down Nick is a prime example of , my way is the best way , it's to bad the guy is disillusioned with himself and good money was spent.though
I'm sure he had many good things to bring forth.

I've been poked at a bit myself for bring up stuff too just to uncover things that may not maybe under stood by some that will not ask, but it sure does open up some thought on things. and we can see some of the , hey this is the way it is and that's it. there are Doctors that kill too, that education don't make them right, there is a method to my madness. OK I've opened my mouth again..some will say hey I'll bet he's talking about me.. don't go there, I've posted too many time for that to be assumed..only put the shoe on if it fits.

 

[Ed Fowler]

Hello John:
First of all I sincerely appreciate your invitation to discussion, that is what leads to better blades for those who choose to persue them. You my friend are a good hand.

You mentioned grain as an easy cut. Yes one or two swats is easy, but cut ten acres by hand and you will have a new perspective of the knives of agriculture. This is a minor point, but I strongly believe agriculture let the way to better blades. Man has been growing grain for over 100,000 years, while warfare or person to person conflict existed always, and although the time spent in battle with man was significant, most of man's time with knife was spent as we do today just keeping the store room with groceries.

Untill the time of Wootz the quality of knife was based solely on performance, wootz only served as a visual certification of quality. (Until man learned to fake a 'hammon')

I welcome you question about the torch!
Much has been said about the redundancy of salts and all that stuff. While redundancy is a valuable goal, redundancy without testing for the desired performance is a terrible waste.

Blade smithing is an art, as is medicine. I went into surgery with all the science behind me to predict the nature of the repair needed. When the Dr. got into my shoulder he found much more damage than was indicated by the
x-rays and mri. A predicted 45 minute surgery took over 2 & 1/2 hours. His was the art of repair learned over time and knowledgable practice tempered with a strong desire to heal. In our visit before surgery he asked me if I was willing to do my part in the recovery period, if not he would not waste his time putting me back together. I assured him I would do me part and we started a voyage together.

No one can predict what a piece of steel will do as a knife without testing that blade doing what it is meant to do. The honest etching of a blade can reveal the true nature of the steel if the man who reads the tale of the etch with knowledge. There are many benefits to using a torch, I can dictate exactly where I want hard, soft and the nature of that hardness. It took some time to learn, but now, today, I know absolutely, and I know because I have been testing blades for over 30 years. I do not have to wait for the lab to tell me, I can find out as soon as the blade is ready for testing while the variables are fresh in my mind.

One of the top men in the science of metals examined a photomicrograph of one of my blades, his comment, "This is the art, it is up to us to endeavor to explain the science." Since that time he has supplied us with questions, in a short sentence he can keep me busy for months. We know how to reach the upper limits, the only problem is that every advance has been at the expense of time and labor. My next venture will be to scale back and find a plenty good enough process that will seek to make a blade that is affordable to all who wish to have one. Just maybe with luck it will become a reality by Blade Show.

I hope I have answered your thoughts, if not ask again.
Most sincerely and Thanks

 

[Ed Fowler]

Dan you posted while I was working on mine, I have to go to physical therapy, will read and answer what ever needs attention when I get back.

 

[Ed Fowler]

John: I well remember our meeting at Eugene, and rember it with hopes of good times to come, I believe I was right. If anyone fails to explain to your satisfaction you owe it to that person and yourself to keep asking until you understand. Just maybe your questions will bring more questions to his mind and more knowledge will be revealed.

Dan:I agree completely with your thoughts, when we make knives we owe it to our clients to provide an honest knife, and describe that knife for what it is. We can only do that when we know ourselves, and unfortunately that knowledge comes slowly for some.

 

[Karl B. Andersen]

Just had to post this!
I just came in from doing some blade quenching -torch-wise - that I learned from Ed at WIllow Bow. Wouldn't you know it?!?! I have a DARNED! good idea how that blade will perform. I do believe I nailed that sucker right on the head - if my testing of past blades proves me this time!
Anyway, the steel I use is 5160.
I managed to secure a rather nice little stash of 1" square - about 3000 feet.
There is a small factory here in my little Illinois town that manufactures Anhydrous ammonia applicator knives! For those non-agriculturally inclined, these are knives that "cut" a groove in the soil into which is applied liquid anhydrous ammonia at a specified depth. It looks sort of like a harrow with a big tank on it. Anyway, this company is known throughout the agricultural world for their quality of knives! Imagine a knife cutting through tough soil day after day. This must be done in a small window of opportunity and down-time is highly frowned on by the farmer! His knives really need to perform! So, this company's reputation lies in the toughness and reliability of their knives.
The 1" square stuff I have was made especially for a special project that never got off the grouhd, so, not needing the 1" stuff anymore - I got it!
What am I saying here? Not sure. Just backing up a few things.
Torch quenching revolutionized my knifemaking.
I find myself using steel that has been adopted by an award winning agricultural manufacturing plant. Tested to failure in the agricultural world.
These factors, including Ed's heat treating techniques, have allowed me the extreme privelege of knowing what's going out my door and how it's going to work for my clients - in advance!
Thanks, Ed, and all who have contributed to opening up a journey that I hope never ends.

 

[B . Buxton]

I've always wondered, how do you know when its time to change your quench oil. I use 3 gallons and its just as clean as it was when I started using it, it doesn't flash fire or smoke any different either. So how do you know?

Thanks,

Bill

 

[Dan Gray]

Just had to post this!
I just came in from doing some blade quenching -torch-wise - that I learned from Ed at WIllow Bow. Wouldn't you know it?!?! I have a DARNED! good idea how that blade will perform. I do believe I nailed that sucker right on the head - if my testing of past blades proves me this time!
Anyway, the steel I use is 5160.
I managed to secure a rather nice little stash of 1" square - about 3000 feet.
There is a small factory here in my little Illinois town that manufactures Anhydrous ammonia applicator knives! For those non-agriculturally inclined, these are knives that "cut" a groove in the soil into which is applied liquid anhydrous ammonia at a specified depth. It looks sort of like a harrow with a big tank on it. Anyway, this company is known throughout the agricultural world for their quality of knives! Imagine a knife cutting through tough soil day after day. This must be done in a small window of opportunity and down-time is highly frowned on by the farmer! His knives really need to perform! So, this company's reputation lies in the toughness and reliability of their knives.
The 1" square stuff I have was made especially for a special project that never got off the grouhd, so, not needing the 1" stuff anymore - I got it!
What am I saying here? Not sure. Just backing up a few things.
Torch quenching revolutionized my knifemaking.
I find myself using steel that has been adopted by an award winning agricultural manufacturing plant. Tested to failure in the agricultural world.
These factors, including Ed's heat treating techniques, have allowed me the extreme privelege of knowing what's going out my door and how it's going to work for my clients - in advance!
Thanks, Ed, and all who have contributed to opening up a journey that I hope never ends.

I would add,, different steels are like the use of different tools. 5160 is a spring steel and I would venture to say that in the use that you described above is H/Ted a bit differently than for use as a knife as we know it.
other steels are good too good going on your find..

 

[John Frankl]

Ed,

Thank you so much for your reply, and especially for taking my question the right way. I was a bit scared as I wrote it (the internet often leads to misunderstandings that never occur face-to-face simply because we cannot see the other person's expressions, body language, etc.). I hope your shoulder is healing well and to see you again soon.

John

 

[alexmin]

Not to steal this thread... do you know any good online Metallurgical reading for a newbie. I'll be buying an oven soon and want to educate myself a little bit first.

Alex