The long anticipated S30V Millie vs. Cruwear Millie edge retention test!!!

[nccole]

the millie is a big but light knife. given a choice, i'd want it to have a steel that's polished screaming sharp, rather than rugged tough, or even sturdy-toothed. candidates are:

zdp 189
cpm 154
A. super blue
O-1
ceramic?

I am the exact opposite. I want a steel that has more than average edge stability qualities. Although I don't think your two characteristics are necessarily one in spite of the other.

 

[nccole]

Did it already.... Here: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...based-on-Edge-Retention-cutting-5-8-quot-rope


400 grit congress Silicone carbide, 15 DPS, 5/8" rope, cut until 20 LBS of down force was reached.

K390 - 820 - Mule - 62-64 RC
S110V - 600 - Mule - 60 RC
S90V - 460 - Military - 60 RC
CTS 204P - 420 - Para 2
M390 - 380 - Military - 61 RC
S30V - 300 - Military - 60 RC
CTS-XHP - 240 - Military - 60.5 RC
CTS-B75P - 240 - Mule
Dozier D2 - 220 - Dozier K2
ELMAX - 220 - Mule - 58.5 RC
VG-10 - 160 - Stretch
AUS-8A - 160 - Recon 1

One big question with comparing your results to Vegas'. How does your 20 lbs of down force compare to "no longer slice clean?" Also, does 20 lbs of down force yield similar slicing/shaving results across all steel types?

 

[Fanglekai]

Your conditions were 50 degrees inclusive and coarse grit finish while cutting rope.

That tests wear resistance. 50 inclusive is very obtuse. Now you should try 24 degrees inclusive at 2000 grit and cut soft non abrasive material and see which retains a higher sharpness for longer.

If you test something you should look at what exactly you are trying to test. What was the hypothesis for your test setup conditions? What did you expect would happen under those or other conditions? One test doesn't give the whole story.

Also did you do multiple runs to average the data? That's necessary to decrease error.

 

[Ankerson]

One big question with comparing your results to Vegas'. How does your 20 lbs of down force compare to "no longer slice clean?" Also, does 20 lbs of down force yield similar slicing/shaving results across all steel types?

None of the knives were dull when finished, all would slice paper after the testing.

Should be noted this is draw cutting, NOT PUSH CUTTING.....

 

[Hairlesstwinkie]

Spyderco's S30V is hard to beat.

 

[Ankerson]

Thanks for posting your results . I thought you had forgotten.

The test of rope in that fashion will pretty much always give the edge to the steel with the greater carbide fraction. With a 50 degree inclusive edge you should have a pretty tough cutter there with both. Even the S30V. Note though 300 is the number Jim got with S30V even with a 30 degree inclusive edge. That tells me that the performance is mainly driven by the carbide fraction and is just what one would expect by looking at the compositions of the two steels on paper.

Without doubt S30V is a premium steel and many people overlook it. It's no longer new or sexy and there are now stainless/non stainless alloys that have even greater wear resistance so they have made S30V seem to some people boring or a "lesser steel".

All cutting isn't pure carbide fractions though and there will always be room for steels with differing attribute balances just like S30V and Cruwear. Finding great abrasive wear resistance and corrosion resistance is easy. Finding that great wear resistance with high toughness is not as easy. S30V isn't balanced that way, but CPM Cruwear/Z wear/PD-1 are. To find near S30V ( 4% Nanadium plus ?%Chrome carbides depending on heat treat protocol) wear resistance with near 3V shock and toughness is currently rare, and that is what the CPM Cruwear brings. It does give up corrosion resistance to get this accomplished naturally, as we can't have it all.

4V should be in the neighborhood as well, with a more wear/less toughness than CPM Cruwear balance. Imagine S30V wear with almost 3 times the shock and toughness ( 3V and PD#1 can get almost up to 3-4 times the shock toughness).

All slightly different flavors with different attribute balances.

I'll be honest. I like them all from 1095/O-1 all the way up to S110V/S125V/A11, etc. The only steel I don't care much for is 440C. It just doesn't do much for me. S30V is still one of my favorites and probably always will be. I've liked (ingot) Cruwear/Vascowear for even longer. CPM M4 will also be a favorite of mine too.

Anyway Vegas, your tests once again came out like they should have going by just looking at steel chemistry and foundry information you must be doing something correctly. That's not to say if you got different results you were doing something wrong. It would mean we would then look at what was causing the difference. That's when things get tougher. Chasing down variables which can be difficult for production knives especially as we really know nothing more than final hardness about the heat treat given the knife and trust me that can make a huge difference.

Joe

The method tests straight wear resistance so the steels (knives) will (Should) for the most part follow the carbide percentage right down the line the same as CATRA does.

If it doesn't then there is a problem with either the method or too many variables.

That's assuming the blades in the different steels are close to the same in blade geometry, behind the edge thickness and edge geometry to keep the variables down.

Start testing knives that are different then the results will be all over the place.

S30V is an excellent steel when it's HT and tempered correctly.

Still have to get around to testing CPM Cru-Wear, have the Military in the box still waiting to be reprofiled and tested.

 

[Vegas Blade]

Your conditions were 50 degrees inclusive and coarse grit finish while cutting rope.

That tests wear resistance. 50 inclusive is very obtuse. Now you should try 24 degrees inclusive at 2000 grit and cut soft non abrasive material and see which retains a higher sharpness for longer.

If you test something you should look at what exactly you are trying to test. What was the hypothesis for your test setup conditions? What did you expect would happen under those or other conditions? One test doesn't give the whole story.

Also did you do multiple runs to average the data? That's necessary to decrease error.

Hello, first I would like to say I'm glad you read my post and hopefully enjoyed it. I'm not trying to be Mr. Scientist. It's simply a bit of fun, and I was passing on my findings. There are a million variables we could throw in to any test. We could test at every different angle at grit and micron ratings from 400-.5 microns. The point is, as I stated in my post, this is simply to test a "working edge" that the average person might have on their knife. I could take them down to 15* per side and polish them with diamond spray strops. That would undoubtably change the outcome. I simply don't think that is a realistic test for most folks. I am just having fun here and posting the results.

I would invite you to buy two identical Millies, the S30V, and the Cruwear, spend the time to sharpen however you see fit, do your test, and share it with us all. I would read it and no doubt enjoy the results.

Cheers to all. Happy Friday.

 

[Ankerson]

I would invite you to buy two identical Millies, the S30V, and the Cruwear, spend the time to sharpen however you see fit, do your test, and share it with us all. I would read it and no doubt enjoy the results.

Cheers to all. Happy Friday.

Yeah, exactly correct.... :thumbup:

Spend the money and the time and do the testing and share the results....

But then spending the $300 to $400 on the knives, another chunk on a sharpening system so the edges will be the same geometry and add the cost of materials then actually doing the testing is a lot harder than just sitting behind the computer and giving an opinion.

 

[elrond18]

Thank you guys for testing these blades! This helps us newbies a lot in choosing our spydies!:thumbup:

 

[Fanglekai]

double

 

[Fanglekai]

Hello, first I would like to say I'm glad you read my post and hopefully enjoyed it. I'm not trying to be Mr. Scientist. It's simply a bit of fun, and I was passing on my findings. There are a million variables we could throw in to any test. We could test at every different angle at grit and micron ratings from 400-.5 microns. The point is, as I stated in my post, this is simply to test a "working edge" that the average person might have on their knife. I could take them down to 15* per side and polish them with diamond spray strops. That would undoubtably change the outcome. I simply don't think that is a realistic test for most folks. I am just having fun here and posting the results.

I would invite you to buy two identical Millies, the S30V, and the Cruwear, spend the time to sharpen however you see fit, do your test, and share it with us all. I would read it and no doubt enjoy the results.

Cheers to all. Happy Friday.

I think you missed my point. You tested something with conditions that led to behavior that we already expected. By testing under other conditions we learn more. Keep in mind that I commented on your test. This thread isn't about me. It's about your test. I commented on your test. There's no need to get defensive.

Yeah, exactly correct.... :thumbup:

Spend the money and the time and do the testing and share the results....

But then spending the $300 to $400 on the knives, another chunk on a sharpening system so the edges will be the same geometry and add the cost of materials then actually doing the testing is a lot harder than just sitting behind the computer and giving an opinion.

My post wasn't an opinion. It was asking a person who already has the materials to perform another test and share the results. Apparently that's not acceptable in your opinion.

 

[me2]

Can you describe how you make the cut? You said on a pine cutting board. Do you cut from heel to tip, tip to heel, isolate a section, use the whole edge, or other?

 

[ShepardCC]

Awesome Thank you for taking the time to do this

I love the edge that I can get on VG10 though

 

[Surfingringo]

I think you missed my point. You tested something with conditions that led to behavior that we already expected. By testing under other conditions we learn more. Keep in mind that I commented on your test. This thread isn't about me. It's about your test. I commented on your test. There's no need to get defensive.





My post wasn't an opinion. It was asking a person who already has the materials to perform another test and share the results. Apparently that's not acceptable in your opinion.

Nobody is defensive, and I don't think anyone is arguing with your ideas for further testing...but your post just sounded a bit rude and condescending to someone who had taken the time to do a test and post results that most of us are grateful to have. If, as you say, you were simply asking him if he would be willing to perform another test, I'm pretty sure there might have been a more polite and more productive way of asking. I dont know...maybe you are right and everyone just read it the wrong way.

 

[Vegas Blade]

I meant no disrespect at all. I was simply saying that it was "A Test", not the be all end all test. I would love for someone to take the time to do a varying degree, varying grit, sharpness test. Candidly it's just not something I have the time or wherewithal to do. I simply put my results, on my day, under my circumstances. There are more variables than can be factored into one simple test. Heck, I was several hours doing the one little test I did. If I added different angles, different coarseness levels, and multiple medias, the test could be a week long. I will say Fangleikei, your post came across as rather "snarky". I will give you the benefit of the doubt and chalk it up to texting not truly relaying ones emotions and intent. I'm going to assume that the written word made you sound different than what you intended. We'll call it a misunderstanding. It's all good. we are all here to have fun and play with knives.

That said; my test was using a slicing motion. Heel to toe. That is, I started from the back of the blade and sliced forward. I tried to incorporate as much of the blade as possible. I tried to use the blade equally.

Thanks to all who have posted, and lets keep the fun hearted discussion rolling. Lets face it: we are all boys playing with knives, lets not be too serious. Cheers all.

 

[Vegas Blade]

Silly fingers!! Double tap.

 

[Surfingringo]

Speaking of boys playing with knives...hey VB, do you own a Yojimbo 2 yet??! Holy Moly, I just got one and it's beyond awesome!! I've been like a 10 year old with his first knife all day! How's THAT for off topic??

 

[me2]

Thanks for the information. Though it's a different knife and geometry, I'd like to try to replicate the tests and see how much difference I get.

 

[me2]

Oh, and you might be a knife nut if you see "holy moly" and wonder how much Molybdenum that would take.

 

[Stays Sharp]

Nobody is defensive, and I don't think anyone is arguing with your ideas for further testing...but your post just sounded a bit rude and condescending to someone who had taken the time to do a test and post results that most of us are grateful to have. If, as you say, you were simply asking him if he would be willing to perform another test, I'm pretty sure there might have been a more polite and more productive way of asking. I dont know...maybe you are right and everyone just read it the wrong way.

I agree, he wasn't being defensive at all with his response to Fanglekai.

Vegas comes off as someone that is doing this out of enjoyment. This is the correct way of going about a hobby and I support him. It can be nitpicked and it isn't perfect, so what let him do it. This isn't AIDS research. It's an amateur sharing his findings with fellow hobbyists lol not a Cliff Stamp rocket scientist article.