The Mystique of the Hamon

Hi STeven. So, given your previous postings, what do you think of the Ono Yoshimitsu style juka choji or the hitatsura in general?

And as far as western blades do you think that, given the nature of modern steels, that the need for the 1/3 to 2/3 ratio is as necessary?
 
SBranson said:
Hi STeven. So, given your previous postings, what do you think of the Ono Yoshimitsu style juka choji or the hitatsura in general?

And as far as western blades do you think that, given the nature of modern steels, that the need for the 1/3 to 2/3 ratio is as necessary?
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Hi Stuart,

Don't care for the juka choji, or hitatsura on the blades that I own or study, but there is certainly a purpose for it, and many people like it. It is so much more difficult to earn a living making swords in Japan than it is to be a knifemaker in the the west, as I am sure that you are aware, that to ignore current preferences in Japan would be quite a financial disadvantage.

Visually, a lower hamon looks much more correct.....I would turn it back to you....do you find a knife that has approximately 1/10th of it's surface to be outside of the hardening line correct or do you strive for more of a balance?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Thanks for the reply. I agree with you on the juka choji and hitatsura. For the most part it is decorative and under a hadori polish can get towards ostentatious. However I think that the juka choji represents a very high degree of control and skill in knowing the steel and heat and for that I admire the smiths who attain it, though aesthtically not necessarily the result. These though are hamon "designing", not something that is to further the performance of the blade. I think I understand your aesthetic to be informed by the idea of the complexity of the hamon as a development of a stronger blade, not a prettier blade though the latter is important in revealing the former.

Visually I too prefer the classical hamons as you have described and shown. I'm not sure what part you mean is the 1/10th but in any case I can't see the point either way. Either you have a blade that will only be able to be sharpened a few times before running out of edge or you'll have one that has differential hardening to a degree that makes the intended benefit useless.

Of course I personally strive for balance and have, over time, tried to evolve my hamons to be more controlled and traditional, thus showing, at least to me, that I know how the steel, the geometry, the quenchant, (and it's temperature), the heat, the soak, the length of quench and clay layout all interact. In fact to make a hamon like you show is more difficult that the flashy ones.
I guess what I am starting to like less are serendipitous hamons. They can be a fun but they don't convey understanding.
 
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Stuart,

Great post.

Like Patrice, I also recently read The Art of the Japanese Sword at your recommendation. I have a new appreciation for good hamon from a smith's perspective. It makes sense that you and other makers would embrace the deliberate over the capricious.

Seth
 
SBranson said:
I think I understand your aesthetic to be informed by the idea of the complexity of the hamon as a development of a stronger blade, not a prettier blade though the latter is important in revealing the former.
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Hi Stuart,

I have an unusual perspective, in that I collect knives, but train in JSA and use all the swords that I own. In 1999, after I had started training, attended the San Francisco Token-Kai....looking around at swords, found a beefy model in very nice polish, and asked the seller how it cut. He looked at me the same way I might look at someone who asked how my Loveless cut.

Have had the privelege to examine priceless swords, swing them and all it leads me towards is wanting to know how "I" and the sword cut. This desire and experience has certainly led me to appreciate a beautiful hamon, but not in the same way as using the sword. So....yes, strength of the sword and the maker's knowledge of what they are doing is of tantamount importance to me.

SBranson said:
I'm not sure what part you mean is the 1/10th but in any case I can't see the point either way. Either you have a blade that will only be able to be sharpened a few times before running out of edge or you'll have one that has differential hardening to a degree that makes the intended benefit useless.

Of course I personally strive for balance and have, over time, tried to evolve my hamons to be more controlled and traditional, thus showing, at least to me, that I know how the steel, the geometry, the quenchant, (and it's temperature), the heat, the soak, the length of quench and clay layout all interact. In fact to make a hamon like you show is more difficult that the flashy ones.
I guess what I am starting to like less are serendipitous hamons. They can be a fun but they don't convey understanding.
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What I am talking about here is the western propensity for makers who have no real idea what they are doing where the hamon goes way past the centerline, turns back where a reasonable boshi would be and, hey, the spine is hardened as well, leaving a section about the size of a silver dollar that is not hard. It's unattractive and pointless.

I admire makers like you that are really taking the time to absorb, if not the techniques, the aesthetic of good Japanese blades. It can only help in how you approach differentially hardened hunters, fighters and bowies in the long run.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Thanks STeven. One day I hope to work more traditionally in tamahagane and charcoal.

Kohai999 said:
What I am talking about here is the western propensity for makers who have no real idea what they are doing where the hamon goes way past the centerline, turns back where a reasonable boshi would be and, hey, the spine is hardened as well, leaving a section about the size of a silver dollar that is not hard. It's unattractive and pointless.
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Hamons are a very good indication of the smith's overall knowledge and aesthetic.
 
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I'm enjoying this conversation and it certainly centers around my studies for the last couple of years. My ideas changed a lot about sword shape and hamon when I suddenly was able to examine old swords in hand.

San Francisco Token Kai this weekend, I should be there lurking about.

Dan
 
Kohai999 said:
What I am talking about here is the western propensity for makers who have no real idea what they are doing where the hamon goes way past the centerline, turns back where a reasonable boshi would be and, hey, the spine is hardened as well, leaving a section about the size of a silver dollar that is not hard. It's unattractive and pointless.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
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Hey Steven I am finding your post interesting and like to file away stuff like this to put to use on my next attempt, however I guess I have having a duh moment because I am just not getting exactly what your saying. I am just not visualizing it I guess I should say. I understand the boshi is the area toward the tip that the grind or bevel starts sweeping up from the straight horizontal. Usually with the hamons I see that they follow this upsweeping line to the spine of the blade. I guess I learn better with pictures :rolleyes:

Thanks
 
D. Pfanenstiel said:
I'm enjoying this conversation and it certainly centers around my studies for the last couple of years. My ideas changed a lot about sword shape and hamon when I suddenly was able to examine old swords in hand.

San Francisco Token Kai this weekend, I should be there lurking about.

Dan
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Dan, that is exactly what is lacking in my education. I am however starting Iaido this week and hope to learn about construction by actually practising with a sword.

quint said:
I guess I learn better with pictures :rolleyes:
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I think that would be difficult without offending someone, maybe ask through a PM.
 
Stuart, that is awesome. There are no good dojo for sword in my area, so I get to miss the practical side of sword making, other than cutting mats as best I can.

I got lucky a couple of years ago and met a fellow who's been polishing old swords for many years and wanted to train me. He also has quite a collection of swords, mostly rusty and waiting for restoration. Well, with some horse trading and several visits, I now own a dozen or so, ranging from the 1600's to showato. With that and the S.F. Token Kai only an hour and a half away, it's all invaluable study material.
 
You may get some, what I bet are subtle surprises Don but your hamons are always even and balanced and that shows, very literally, that you are in control.
 
Stuart, I have two recently heat treated blades that tell me I don't know what I'm doing. :D

But thanks man! You are doing some great work!
 
i have been pursuing the hamon since before i started knifemaking and have a long ways to go yet in understanding its nuances and application for my blades...but it is an enjoyable pursuit, especially when the clay and the charcoal and the water and the fire look favorably upon the steel and bring it to life as a blade...

along the vein of the evolved convolution of the hamon Stuart spoke of earlier, and the tension between practical requirements and cultural and societal shifts over time, here is a partial translation of an old study on the correlation between the width of the hamon and broken blades...
http://www.nihontocraft.com/Suishinshi_Masahide.html

and, while there are certainly some great gains from the consistency of modern steels, there is much to be said for a core of low carbon and high layer wrought iron in preventing a broken blade, as would be the construction style of all antique katana and most wakizashi...
 
My dream Matt Lamey Bowie! I love just holding it and feeling it. Some day I will have to chop something with it.
I would hate to mess up the lovely hamon though.

 
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