The perfect 'flop'

STR said:
Otherwise you are left wondering what the design was intended for overall.
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Quite frankly, I think a lot of times there isn't one. Descriptions are also left rather vague specifically to allow excuses for poor performance. Compare this with knives actually indended for working tools, look up the description of the Olfa's for example and they will tell you in detail the exact type of materials that each one is made to handle. It would be nice to see more critical examination of knives from this viewpoint (coherent design). What is this knife suppposed to do, is this actually supported by all elements of the design, are there any elements which are severely out of balance, are there any elements which are in fact completely polar opposites. Note in the above those smatchets and similar knives are often made out of brittle and high wear steels yet they are made primarily for use which has no demands on wear but is high on impacts. This is a very common example of a divergent design.

-Cliff
 
Great point actually. Sometimes the design may be apparent to you but the steel is not designed for what the style of knife is supposed to do. Excellent! When we agree on what the steel can do I mean. :D

STR
 
STR, when you speak about flops, do you also think about the Strider PT,SNG, and SMF that seem to be built for eternity with sturdy handles and blades, yet have a weak link in the form of a lock-relief which is cut out too deep ?
I also read your report about the Zero Tolerance 200, do you think this model has a better design and execution than what is considered the 'real thing', meaning the aforementioned Strider folders ?
 
Umm, if I can respond -?

The lock relief you refer to stood up well in a test vs. Extrema Ratio when they were both put in a hydraulic press. It withstood more pressure that a human could apply, which meets a significant criteria for a hand tool, at least to me.

Compared to the Psuedo-PSnG I mentioned earlier which could rock shut with mild hand pressure - as did it's replacement.

Please relate what "lock cut out too deep" means to you - is it perceptive or an actual experience?
 
STR, when you speak about flops, do you also think about the Strider PT,SNG, and SMF that seem to be built for eternity with sturdy handles and blades, yet have a weak link in the form of a lock-relief which is cut out too deep ?
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No not really flops there in my mind.


I also read your report about the Zero Tolerance 200, do you think this model has a better design and execution than what is considered the 'real thing', meaning the aforementioned Strider folders ?
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I think the ZT 301 and 302 as well as the 200 and 400 are step ups yes but I have not ever handled an SMF. I might point out that Mick and Duane had a hand in the design of the 301 and 302 along with Ken Onion.

On lock relief. Say what you want but they are the weakest link in the chain. If you test a solid liner lock of .050 for stress and it is uniformly thick for the whole length of the lock and it flicks off the interface contact area on the blade it is most always because of something done wrong at the interface with the degree of the angle. If you test one and it sticks for the length of the test you will find it is strong enough that way and that the energy of the load is equally distributed for the entire length of the lock. You can see some bend as they are stressed only to pop back to their original shape afterwards. This is much the same with a frame lock with the exception that when you have a .125 frame lock with a .032 relief cut out at the bend area for the lock keep in mind that the entire lock, meaning the part that is still .125 thick does not bend or deform under the load and so what happens is that all the energy from the load transfers to the cut out in that one little spot.

As for saying that they can stand up to more weight than a human can exert. I beg to differ. I watched a 12 year old 80 pound nephew of mine destroy one I made for him with a .032 lock relief. He didn't mean to. But he did and it happened in my shop minutes after giving it to him while he was impatiently waiting for his mother to take him home. He did this by merely pushing the open blade in a slot in my work table and pushing down on the handle. I had to remake the lock because it folded and kinked the lock relief right there at the bend. The strongest liner locks can hold about 100 pounds on the tail or lanyard end of the handle with the blade cranked open and clamped in a vice. Don't believe me? Try it.

You have to remember that in a approximately 4" long knife. Thats four inches closed, 340 pounds on the lanyard would equal plus or minus between 1000 to 1200 pounds of weight at the pivot based on SOGs stats and testing data that I have read. Sal has a calculation he uses to determine this also. 100 pounds of downward pressure on the lanyard end of a knife is a lot of stress on the lock. Lots more than 100 pounds but that is another story for another thread.

I do have strong feelings about the way frame locks are made guys. But I'm in good company. Elishewitz, Sal Glesser, myself and many others note that the relief is something that is of concern in frame locks and most always the fail point that shows up when they are stressed. This by itself does not make the knife a flop. It makes it out of balance which is an entirely different thing really. In other words the bull pivot and hefty stop pin are much more durable and more reliable than the lock is by far. Stand outs actually.

A thinner relief allows the blade to center up better when closed. It makes it custom level for opening like a small gents folder. Frankly it seems to me that most of the guys using these knives in tactical situations are stout enough to handle a 'mans' lock with some tension on it. So what if it is harder to close or has so much spring the blade sits slightly off when its closed? I'd rather have a thicker stronger lock. I don't think most of these guys are sitting in the dug out opening and closing their knives for entertainment or really even care about custom level easy opening where less drag on the blade is necessary. I don't. Beef up the lock relief that is all I'm suggesting. Or at least give me the option to get it the way I'd rather have it. Look at the lock relief on the Cuda Max for example. Now thats what I'm talking about!

STR
 
Personally i only had a problem on my new SNG with the lockbar not travelling far enough to lock the blade.
Although i solved it by disassembling the knife and bending the lockbar quite a lot further, i don't think this should happen on a 400 dollar knife.

About the perceived too thin lock-relief, as for me it is indeed perceived; i was under the impression STR was pointing at the Strider SNG/SMF when he spoke of folders with bull-pivots and rather weak locks.
I don't think i will ever use my SNG hard enough to see it fail at this point, but in a folder that is overbuilt like this one, the rather thin lock-relief indeed catches my eye.

I must say i am very pleased with the knife as it is right now, i have thinned the edge to the point it can now cut like a Spyderco, and it has become my EDC for the time being, that says enough don't you think ?
:D
 
With the Striders and Emersons so what? They are covered. Those guys will fix or replace it if you mess it up. Use it. Obviously they are comfortable making them this way. I wouldn't. Its just a difference in opinion.

To me when I see a lock relief cut that thin in a knife with a big ole bull pivot 1/4" or more and a 3/16" stop pin or bigger in thick titanium and G10 slabs it is like me taking one of my 16" rims off my Lincoln Navigator on just one wheel and going ahead and using a 14" incher there but leaving the others 16". Sure it will still roll down the highway, and I bet I can even four wheel a bit with it too but its out of balance. To me to bring more balance to the "system" as a whole in those type knives the relief should be like the ones in the Cuda Maxx. I've measured those on that knife to be between .080 and .084. at the lock relief with the lock slab itself a .150+ thickness. Sure its a lot of lock. But I like it!

STR
 
My criteria for a flop

Visually appealing? if yes go to next
Ergonomic? if yes go...
Innovative? does it do anything better than previous knife i was using? ...
really hard to destroy/scratch/etc? (very important) if yes continue...
will I get arrested for carrying this? if no.....
Does knife perform as intended and as i perceived it to when i purchased it? If so...

Its not a flop by my definition.
 
kwackster said:
Personally i only had a problem on my new SNG with the lockbar not travelling far enough to lock the blade.
Although i solved it by disassembling the knife and bending the lockbar quite a lot further, i don't think this should happen on a 400 dollar knife.
:D
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Strider Intends the lockbar not to travel to far up the blade ramp. this is intentional in most cases. can you post a link so i can see it? just curious :)
 
Many frame locks and even many liner locks do not come out very far to engage the blade. I've worked on more than a few .125 thick frame locks where only .025 to .050 of the lock thickness was behind the blade to secure it open even after they had been carried and used for a good while. I prefer the way Chris Reeve does his with ample thickness in behind the blade. His are anywhere from 50 to 75% of the lock thickness behind it when new which is optimal for security in my opinion.

The relief is not a big issue with makers for the most part. They don't cause a lot of the defeats that are frequent really. The number one complaint is locks sliding off the blade from pressure. This is much more common but as I said if you do have one that stays locked, and if you do push it to where something has to give of course it will be the weakest part of the system that gives whatever that may be. Sal said on the Spyderco forum that in his tests the cut out was the weak link and where he saw them fail. I've seen this also.

The key I think to what I'd call a proper lock relief vs one not proper is to take it down but only as far as you need to and no more. Why take it so thin that it allows the lock to compress and kink easier? Granted it may still be hard on some models depending on several other factors but it is still going to be much easier to kink a .032 lock relief vs one left .070 like a thick liner lock. There are no relief cut outs in the Strider Buck 881 folder and it bends and releases just fine, is smooth to open and close, so much so my wife can do it and that knife has .070 thick liners in it. The lock is .072 at the contact on my knife. So, in my mind if .070 can be bent and allow easy use without the need for a relief that should be the standard and no thinner. But what do I know?

Again though this does not equate to a flop.

More flops? Ok. How about the Boker Ceramic pictured in this link? http://www.knivesplus.com/BK-2040-Boker-knives-ceramic.HTML

Here is a question for you. Why put a brittle ceramic blade in a tactical handle with thick strong titanium and a good strong lock back design? Whats wrong with this picture? Even the shape of the blade says hard user but its not. Tap it the wrong way and its history.

What about the new Spyderco Captain? Does it qualify? I'm thinking about that one just because I'm not sure exactly what that blade shape is for. Sorry Sal. Just couldn't resist but one does have to ask. Just what does one do with that blade shape? I keep thinking I must be missing something. Its probably border line but it is a puzzle to me currently. I believe I even mentioned this in my review of it.

http://www.knivesplus.com/spydercoknifecaptain-sp-c111gp.html



STR
 
The lockbar relief will not fail first in the case of the Striders (or most frame locks). Saying "it looks like it could crumple" is a weak complaint.

What will break (nothing in a way) or how I know that is not important, so don't ask.

To stay on track with this flop thing, I wouldn't get visual appearance or non-function criteria involved. The best tools are ones that are 100 percent task-driven, so ugly usually means no time was wasted on the non-essentials.

I'd stick to the "what is this for" concept.

Such as stabbers with weak locks.
Self-defense knives with poor accessibility (low rider clips anyone?).
Slicers with choils to catch material on.
Choppers with heavy handles.

Fixed blades that can't do anything better than a folder make no sense to me unless quiuck access is important.

Large, delicate knives also confuse me. I'm keeping my Millie for life, but it took me a while to figure out some uses for it. I rarely find myself needing a thin knife with only a linerlock any longer than 3 inches. What can it do that a Caly Jr can't? My only answer is easier food prep. If I want to slice up more shops rags at once, for example, I'd be using a recurve anyway. If I needed to stab through thick plastic (very common for me with cars) and could only chose between it and my Para, the para would get the nod due to lock and tip strength.

Ironic one of the best selling knives of all time, and it doesn't meet many needs for me.

It was actually designed to compliment a stouter knife, and it does it well. But I still don't see the need to 4 inches of blade in a knife for this purpose.

Actually, I just thought of one. It would have been the perfect knife for making the initial cuts into foam I used for a protoyping class a few years ago. I didn't have it then, but used my caly jr. The extra length would have been nice in that case.

Sticking with this "best-selling knife" theme for me, the blade of a Buck 110 also confuses me. Hollow ground blades maintain a section of full stock thickness at the spine, presumably for strength vs a flat grind. But by making it a clip point, the tip is on the fragile side. So the extra spine can't be used for prying because the tip will break. What is it for?

The obvious answer in many "flop" cases would be comprimise. All- around "well balanced" sounds good, but means it will do nothing great, just everything ok.

We are all knife nuts. If we had money for a knife for each job, we would own them (some people here do :rolleyes: )

For those who don't, compromise knives must be bought. A native does everything well but nothing great. Hence great first (and only) knife.

The real flops are specialty-purpose knives that have one or more aspects that contradict the purpose. Sometimes steel choices stick out as a sore thumb in this regard.

PS: whoever said the Gerber Solstice was junk, you couln't be more right. I bought one for 4 bucks canadian at home depot. I thought "hey, I won't have to open my split ring like for occasionally removing my Micra". It takes 4 times longer to put it back on than opening a split ring. I won't continue, but it's junk in so many ways you have to wonder if anyone actually tried using a prototype before mass-producing them.
 
IMO that boker ceramic is a definite flop, its just ugly so it doesnt even get any more consideration from me. lol the spyderco id have to try to use for something before i can say for sure. I need to handle/own a Spyderco because i think they are crap and im pretty sure if i owned one id like them better.


Edit :
Thoughts on Spyderco are a preconceived notion based on 1% experience with them, ive owned 1 spyderco and it gave me a bad impression so i traded it immediatly.
 
STR said:
What about the new Spyderco Captain? Does it qualify? I'm thinking about that one just because I'm not sure exactly what that blade shape is for. Sorry Sal. Just couldn't resist but one does have to ask. Just what does one do with that blade shape? I keep thinking I must be missing something.

STR
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I get the blade shape, but for this reason would absolutely call it a flop (and it might turn out to be).

A tanto is great for stabbing hard material and for prying. A flat ground drop point will outstab a tanto into softer materials, but that's besides the point.

A recurve tanto, as is the case for the Captain, is the recent effort to add utility to strong tanto designs. Similar to reinforced tips emerging on slicers, which is again another story (we all want a knife to do it all). The recurved section provides a good edge to cut with, as it continuously varies the angle of attack, as well as keep the material from sliding off the blade (common for tanto's).

So there we go. Recurve tanto are meant for prying, stabbing into hard materials, and still providing a decent cutting edge.

A knife for these uses needs a very strong lock and pivot, should it even be a folder at all. Why did Spyderco use a linerlock??? Lockback would have been fine.

Not only is the Captain's lock mismatched for it's blade shape (and general knife construction), but from what I have read the lock has had problems for just general knife use, which for most people is relatively docile.

A flop indeed.
 
No. I don't think the Captain qualifies as a flop. I think after looking at it deeper that it could be fairly good at skinning which is in the description. The grip goes well with the task and would allow good tacky handles even when wet from blood. The recurve could allow it to continue cutting even after it got a bit dull and as far as the lock goes. For what it is written up to do in the description in the link I think the lock is fine. The Military has had the same issues you bring up about it and you seem to be quite happy with it.


STR
 
darkestthicket said:
Strider Intends the lockbar not to travel to far up the blade ramp. this is intentional in most cases. can you post a link so i can see it? just curious :)
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The lock on my SNG would not engage at all.
When the blade was fully opened, the lockbar did not touch the tangramp, so the blade could flop a little (what a beautiful word) back and forth.
I don't have any pictures of it, but i cured it,and it works fine know, although the lockbar touches the tangramp at about 85 percent.
:)
 
The Captain's blade has several unique uses. It's really good for chipping things out too...tip's very strong... It's not an SD blade shape...much more specialized...
 
In the "Welcome" section of Spyderco's "2006 Product Guide", Spyderco states that before they produce a knife, its design "must meet one decisive factor; does it elevate cutting capacity and enhance function and ergonomics?"
If it does not do so, then it is most likely a flop.
I'm sick of all the "gimmick" knives that have fancy new "bells and whistles" that do not make the knife any better than a more common design. I have not held or used either, but in my opinion, the Cold Steel AK-47 and the Kershaw E.T. are both flops. I've noticed that many owners of the Cold Steel AK-47 end up grinding off the "pressure point" jut at the end of the handle to improve the knife. Here's a clue: if the customer has to grind off part of the knife to make it work better, it's a flop. Why anyone would not just instead buy a Cold Steel Recon 1 (especially now that they have G-10 handle scales) is beyond me.
Concerning the Kershaw E.T., does that not look like one of the most uncomfortable handles ever? Wouldn't it be possible to pinch a finger or part of you hand in those pivoting handle parts? And is there any need for a knife that has a built in carabiner? Can't I just tie one to the lanyard hole of my BenchMade Griptillian with a piece of para cord? The E.T. also, I believe, has a bottle opener. Fine, so does my Becker Necker. I'll just tie a carabiner to it, too. And the E.T. has a MSRP of $99.00. For $99.00 I could buy two knives that would each be better. There are much better choices in that price range. In my opinion, both the AK-47 and the E.T. are gimmick knives that look cool, but would be less comfortable in the hand and no more functional than more common designs. They may be great conversation pieces, but that's not why I carry a knife.
 
Yes, but historically gimmick knives have sold to collectors well though. So again it isn't necessarily a negative thing if that is what its intent was. Its obvious that was not the intent with the two you mention though in the AK47and ET. As I said earlier. True flops are hard to find.

I think novelty knives still sell quite well to collectors. I have an aunt that collects Coca cola pen knives for example. Most are pretty useless but she seems to like them. Some are modern users though and are quite handy. I would put the Spyderco Q in this category. Advertisement knives is another term I've heard used for them.

STR
 
melt said:
I have not held or used either, but in my opinion, ...
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That doesn't leave much to base an opinion on. :)

Concerning the Kershaw E.T., does that not look like one of the most uncomfortable handles ever? Wouldn't it be possible to pinch a finger or part of you hand in those pivoting handle parts? And is there any need for a knife that has a built in carabiner? [...] The E.T. also, I believe, has a bottle opener. [...] And the E.T. has a MSRP of $99.00. For $99.00 I could buy two knives that would each be better. [...] They may be great conversation pieces, but that's not why I carry a knife.
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The E.T. may LOOK uncomfortable, but I personally didn't find it FELT uncomfortable. No pinching.

The E.T. is not the only knife with a built-in carabiner. Buck and Leatherman both have knives with carabiners. Kershaw has another knife that IS a carabiner with blades built in.

The bottle opener is just the carabiner used to hook the edge of a bottle cap, not a separately designed function.

Who pays MSRP? I believe the street price is around $60.

Some of us do have knives that are conversation pieces, although not only that. They are as much for fun as for utility. You pays your money and you takes your choice.
 
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