The perfect 'flop'

Another great point. I have found there are two kinds of beauty in knives. Some look very pretty but feel very ugly. Some look very ugly but feel very beautiful in the hand. Spydero is famous for this. I gave Spydercos nothing more than a passing glance for years because they looked fugly ugly to me and I couldn't see past the visual affect. It wasn't until I picked one up to use it that my hand told me to think again. People see my Dodo and react this way all the time. I hear things like "what an ugly little knife", or "how cute" as common expressions when I have my Dodo out. Then they hold it and suddenly the words "wow" come out of their mouths.

STR
 
There is a real conection between the knife and the bird. Both are gone...

But i don´t see the Dodo knife as a flop. It works the way and it is obvious, what it was made for.

Much to expensive for a box cutter.

I see it more as an example how the industry reacts on restrictive laws, as it was advertised as to be New York conform. Wasn´t it?

I guess the Benchmade 921 was a flop too. Guess it sold badly. To me: Why buying a knife with to blades made from high alloyed steel at nearly similar hardness, both relative thin, together much more expensive than a SAK, featuring a more or less Non atractive design? Where instead the SAK features a screw driver, that can be used to pry a bit.

The 921 won an award.:D
 
I didn't bring up the Dodo to list it as a flop. I certainly don't think its a flop and wish that it was still in production. That little serrated one I have is a cutting machine. I use it all the time. From the perspective of sales it may have been less than was hoped. I figure they discontinued it for that reason. I would not say the Q is a flop either. It is probably one of the most sought after collector pieces Spyerco has ever made.

STR
 
STR said:
Many frame locks and even many liner locks do not come out very far to engage the blade. I've worked on more than a few .125 thick frame locks where only .025 to .050 of the lock thickness was behind the blade to secure it open even after they had been carried and used for a good while. I prefer the way Chris Reeve does his with ample thickness in behind the blade. His are anywhere from 50 to 75% of the lock thickness behind it when new which is optimal for security in my opinion.

The relief is not a big issue with makers for the most part. They don't cause a lot of the defeats that are frequent really. The number one complaint is locks sliding off the blade from pressure. This is much more common but as I said if you do have one that stays locked, and if you do push it to where something has to give of course it will be the weakest part of the system that gives whatever that may be. Sal said on the Spyderco forum that in his tests the cut out was the weak link and where he saw them fail. I've seen this also.

The key I think to what I'd call a proper lock relief vs one not proper is to take it down but only as far as you need to and no more. Why take it so thin that it allows the lock to compress and kink easier? Granted it may still be hard on some models depending on several other factors but it is still going to be much easier to kink a .032 lock relief vs one left .070 like a thick liner lock. There are no relief cut outs in the Strider Buck 881 folder and it bends and releases just fine, is smooth to open and close, so much so my wife can do it and that knife has .070 thick liners in it. The lock is .072 at the contact on my knife. So, in my mind if .070 can be bent and allow easy use without the need for a relief that should be the standard and no thinner. But what do I know?

Again though this does not equate to a flop.

More flops? Ok. How about the Boker Ceramic pictured in this link? http://www.knivesplus.com/BK-2040-Boker-knives-ceramic.HTML

Here is a question for you. Why put a brittle ceramic blade in a tactical handle with thick strong titanium and a good strong lock back design? Whats wrong with this picture? Even the shape of the blade says hard user but its not. Tap it the wrong way and its history.

What about the new Spyderco Captain? Does it qualify? I'm thinking about that one just because I'm not sure exactly what that blade shape is for. Sorry Sal. Just couldn't resist but one does have to ask. Just what does one do with that blade shape? I keep thinking I must be missing something. Its probably border line but it is a puzzle to me currently. I believe I even mentioned this in my review of it.

http://www.knivesplus.com/spydercoknifecaptain-sp-c111gp.html



STR
Click to expand...

Regarding the Captain,

According to a guy at my local knifeshop and in case you can't read it in this post dripping with sarcasm "the blade shape is to maximize cutting efficiency into flesh with a minimum amount of resistance and brutal damage from a short blade". Yep, thats an awesome sales pitch right there, and this guy is HUGE at Usual Supects and carries a Dwyer Strider. That and inflating the MSRP by 70 to 100% keeps me from shopping there but I do thank him for providing clarity. :thumbup:

So now you know what the blade is for. I think this knife makes a great paint stripper and tape remover actually.
 
I guess what threw me on the blade shape was the rounded end. I expect to see a flat like chisel end on tanto styles so that was a bit of a question mark for a bit. I suppose it could skin out and maybe even be used to stripping out the hair of a hide to prepare for tanning also.

STR
 
STR said:
I guess what threw me on the blade shape was the rounded end. I expect to see a flat like chisel end on tanto styles so that was a bit of a question mark for a bit. I suppose it could skin out and maybe even be used to stripping out the hair of a hide to prepare for tanning also.

STR
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Well upon speaking to my esteemed Pa, it seems this knife is a fighter born and bred and he wants one for Christmas so its a twofer. 1. Its serviceable as to its specific purpose 2. My dad gets a Captain.
 
STR said:
I would not say the Q is a flop either. It is probably one of the most sought after collector pieces Spyerco has ever made.

STR
Click to expand...

Collector value aside, I wouldn't call it a flop anyway. I actually EDC'ed one for over a year. It's purpose was light cutting in an unbelievably light package, which it succeeded at perfectly. The wow factor was a cool bonus.
 
STR said:
More flops? Ok. How about the Boker Ceramic pictured in this link? http://www.knivesplus.com/BK-2040-Boker-knives-ceramic.HTML

Here is a question for you. Why put a brittle ceramic blade in a tactical handle with thick strong titanium and a good strong lock back design? Whats wrong with this picture? Even the shape of the blade says hard user but its not. Tap it the wrong way and its history.STR
Click to expand...

After reading the majority of this thread.... that was the first knife I came up with. Just my personal opinion but, I can't think of one thing I would need a caramic blade for:confused:
 
tarmix101 said:
After reading the majority of this thread.... that was the first knife I came up with. Just my personal opinion but, I can't think of one thing I would need a caramic blade for:confused:
Click to expand...

Some food preparation really benefits from ceramic knives.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
tarmix101 said:
I can't think of one thing I would need a caramic blade for
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That's because you are not an operator. McClung introduced his line of ceramic knives on the basis they would not react like steel to electromagnetic forces which from a "tactical" viewpoint has various advantages. They are also very corrosion resistant and are harder than various alloys often used for dive knives such as Titanium, 420J2, etc., so they were stronger and had better edge retention. Mission will basically say the exact same thing but invert the comparison in thier favor (Titanium is better than ceramic for that application).

From a more mundane point of view, they are the next logical extension if you accept the common promotion that more carbides = better knife steel. If this is the case then obviously ceramic is much better than <insert fad stainless here> because it is harder, more corrosion resistant, with a much higher wear resistance. Also, given that ceramics are mainly inert you can for example cut lettuce and not have it brown. Of course you can also do that with a plastic lettuce knife.

For those people who find HSS too soft without enough wear resistance, these are also alloys such as Carpenters maxamet, 70 HRC (minimum), with a large volume of very hard carbides. So those alloys would seem to be a sensible first suggestion over pure carbide. Though personally I would find it difficult to believe that anyone would use a M2 knife at 65/66 HRC and complain about lack of hardness/edge retention, or for that matter 1095 if properly hardened for that application.

I have sharpened a bunch of ceramic knives, even regound points which were broken and badly chipped blades. They are not as difficult to grind as many claim, I just reshaped them on the same 80/100 grit AO belts I use for everything which are the cheapest ones I can find at any hardware store. The main problem I had was that a coarse edge tended to fracture rather than take an aggressive finish. It also needed a more obtuse angle than I like for cutting ability. However that was years and many knives ago and one of these days I intend to work with one again and check this again in detail.

As for flops, the Becker Magnum Camp was a flop in terms of sales, but in terms of design it seemed to be coherent. The purpose was well specified, the design looked very solid, the steel was a great one for that type of knife and it even had a well known makers name attached to it. However it simply could not compete in the current tactical market and it was disregarded by many as just a large kitchen knife, which is what it pretty much was, but that is kind of what you want for that type of work, unless you are Rambo of course.


-Cliff
 
Kwackster, I had the same problem with an SNG I bought. It didn't have a good lock up and the blade would wobble with little pressure. It was a quick fix, I sent it packing. I've owned mabye 2 others since, bad QC on a $400 knife is a flop to me. I no longer buy Strider. Give me a solid knife with a well thought out design and great fit+finish and I'll buy it. I don't care whos name is on the blade.
 
I know, I will get a lot of heat for this, but the Tom Brown Tracker is a flop to me.....I can not make heads and tails of that design. I think it tries to do to many things at once.
 
HoB said:
I know, I will get a lot of heat for this, but the Tom Brown Tracker is a flop to me.....I can not make heads and tails of that design. I think it tries to do to many things at once.
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You're not the only one. I have no use for that one.
 
The DO Paul Basal Shadow is another obvious one. But then again, it is too easy to pick on Dork Ops:

...this knife is the new choice of operational warriors throughout the globe ...The Shadow offers an extended blade length for penetrating Comm-bloc frag vests with an accelerated spearpoint tip..... The top edge features a bone breaker and a radical, self-cleaning BlastRip™ saw for carving survival notches in spears and anchoring notches for detonation cord. A pat pend. BarbSnap™ cutter allows for rapid notching and snapping of interdiction wires in entry ops.... The handle is made of a low-durometer, high tensile aramid composite that is impervious to everything from aviation fuel to Al Qaeda body fluids. ... Quartz impregnated inserts provide extreme circumstances grip enhancement and are replaceable should decontamination be required. ... The black Titanium CarboNitride (TiCN) vacuum deposited finish is designed to shed the micro-fine airborne sand of Middle-Eastern deserts.

Clearly my ideal EDC....ROTFLMAO :D
 
HoB said:
I know, I will get a lot of heat for this, but the Tom Brown Tracker is a flop to me.....
Click to expand...

Considering that design is in production by multiple manufacturers and several custom knife makers, its performance can not be questioned by Bladeforums logic. To suggest otherwise implies that manufacturers/makers could actually be influenced by fads and what sells over functinality. In fact this whole thread is absurd given that presupposition.

tarmix101 said:
I have no use for that one.
Click to expand...

The thing about designs which are so radical is that they make a major performance statement. If that knife is solid then obviously a parang is severely lacking. The design exploded when the movie came out, Rambo did the same thing for that style of knives. I'd prefer a small valiant golok or a Bruks axe, or a mora + saw. Someone needs to make a movie where the hero uses a Mora 2000 and Wildlife hatchet.

-Cliff
 
My SOG Xray Vision I'm sad to say. It was the first folder I paid over $100 dollars for. (It was at a B&M before I'd discovered this forum or shopping online). It felt good in my hand, it was a good steel (especially at the time), and I had always wanted a tanto (thinking how strong the point was). I also like the Arc lock even better than the Axis.

Now, we have a good strong blade- both design and materials, a great lock, and they go and put such a weak handle on it that I'm almost afraid to use it for anything more than minor chores. It easily and visibly flexes and all it would've taken was some decent liners, and adding them probably would have even improved the balance.

I can't believe I didn't notice it when I bought it- oh, well, such is lust! I don't care much for tantos anymore, anyway!
 
Fit and finish on a knife like a SnG should be a given - but it doesn't make it a flop in the sense discussed here. It just makes it a poor example of product. Not the only time that's been mentioned - and I have other knives with F&F problems, - but it's the inclusion of one poorly thought out feature that is being celebrated here.

It's why I mentioned the crap liner lock design on the Buck. A thin SS liner on a SS blade can't generate enough friction, given the extremely short effective length of the liner and sharp ramp angle. It actually works as a delayed action closer. Add a 420H blade on a knife emulating a high performance Strider = flop. (Not the ATS34 versions, I hear.)

I see the need for ceramic or titanium blades, but I have to wonder how much the anti magnetic qualities are compromised by all the other gear an "operator" would carry. I understand they were sold for underwater use - so are they using CF tanks and other non-magnetic gear?

I think the application as a whole would need careful analysis to prevent a lethal flop in performance. Obviously the knife as the primary tool has been addressed.
 
Cliff Stamp said:
Someone needs to make a movie where the hero uses a Mora 2000 and Wildlife hatchet.

-Cliff
Click to expand...

What about Jack Nicholson in The Shining? Wonder if fire axe sales went up after he used his.:) Heeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrreeeeeeeeeeeee'ssssssssss Johnny.:eek:
 
Liked the grip...loved the blade profile and performance. Smooth action... even had bronze-alloy washers, etc.

But...

It needed an elastic to keep the blade in the handle when folded and turning the knife over for a "spine whack" test would cause the lock to disengage in fright! First model was returned...replacement was the same.

Still have one...should look into seeing if it could be modded into a functional piece at some point.
 
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