The problem with 'survival' knives

Batoning is a test of a knife. It's a technique. Your questions pertain to tactics. For that read from reputable survival instructors. Go out and experience the wilderness and apply knowledge.

Find what works for you.
 
DeadboxHero said:
Batoning is a test of a knife. It's a technique. Your questions pertain to tactics. For that read from reputable survival instructors. Go out and experience the wilderness and apply knowledge.

Find what works for you.
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I don't know what to make of this argument. Batoning is indeed a test of a knife, but I could equally try and test a knife by using it to make a dining table. If I went out and experienced the wilderness (assuming you mean, fake a survival situation in my local woods), and didn't decide to baton anything, that would indeed be a 'tactical' decision, just as my decision not to build a dining table would involve a tactical decision. Nothing in that decision making process says anything about the suitability of the knife I am carrying with me for survival.

I guess we could list all possible uses of a knife (it's probably not as hard as it sounds), from preparing food to building shelters, and rank each knife according to its utility in each situation, but we would never agree on a winner, because the list is going to involve tasks that some knives could never do (such as batoning a thick piece of timber, or being used as an improvised spear point), and involve decisions to undertake tasks that would not be relevant in all survival situations (such as building a raft in the desert). All of which leads me to think that a so-called 'survival' knife is really something much more mundane, and that is, it is a utility knife, and we should acknowledge that and apply an overall utility test, so that we have a compromise knife that can be useful in the most possible situations. Or, as some have suggested, carry two knives, but then we are simply acknowledging that your chances of survival improve with the more tools you have around to help you survive.

Something presented as a 'survival' knife like one of the larger Beckers then likely fails this test. This is because it would only score higher on a few survival tasks, and is a less suitable knife in other situations. A 'bushcraft' knife like a Mora stands a better chance. But the more I look at the 'two knife' situation the more a lightweight knife and saw win out. I am sure this is what a survival instructor would tell me.

I am still going to buy a Becker or other similar large knife. But I do not think it be carried as a survival knife and will certainly never be used for batoning (I can think of half a dozen more effective ways to get into dry timber to start a fire). In all likelihood, it will live in the truck and be used for heavy duty tasks - breaking up timber for fires, or clearing tracks to car-campsites. I am sure it will be a good knife for those tasks.
 
tl;dr: oh boy...
Been hashed, rehashed, and hashed again several times.
 
To the OP, read Seriosbladeno1's response and take it to heart. It is very well written. Everyone has their own definition of a "survival knife" based on their own experiences and training. Forum members that have served in the military have a vastly different definition of survival than someone like me who is an Eagle Scout and avid backpacker. The requirements and demands for a blade will vary drastically based upon this past experience, but also on the scenario you envision yourself being placed in. On top of this is nuanced layer of personal preference, which varies wildly. I'm sure even a cursory review of these forums will reveal this aspect in what knife you should carry in what you consider a "survival" situation.

Personally, I define a survival blade as one that fulfills multiple roles adequately in a "lost in the wilderness" situation. Of course this excludes many of the common EDC blades, and as a general rule narrows the search to a high quality, utility-based fixed blade. However, as an Eagle Scout, we are taught to survive with the knife you carry on you most commonly. I've seen some of my best friend's "fancy" knives crash and burn in our troop's "personal gear test" outings. (Our troops held these outings a couple months before a serious outing, such as Philmont, Rocky Mountain High Adventure Camp, or Northern Tier). These trips have helped hone my knife carrying criteria, and it is something you can't replicate outside such conditions.

That said, I find my preferred "survival" carry setup consists of two knives. On single day or 1-night backpacking trips these days I prefer a very small, hard-use knife such as the CRKT Heiho (assisted, tho many here will disagree with my choice to keep it so). I just don't need anything larger, and for the price point if I lose it (which happens relatively often on the trail) it isn't a big deal it all. I'm sure it may be a bit small (or have cheap steel [AUS8]) for most users, but man does it take a beating and it's inexpensive enough that you won't miss it. I recently acquired an EnZo Birk 75 (S30V, full flat grind) that I'm currently putting through its paces in this role, so I can't recommend it fully just yet. Early results for me seem to be very promising for the day-hike orovernight-hike role, but I'm reticent to recommend it until I've put it through my full backpacking gauntlet.

My second knife is often a larger piece that can be thrust into a defensive/survival role with high tolerance that can take a vicious beating if/when the rubber meets the road. I'm not a huge Spyderco fan (as far as aesthetics are concerned) but a cheap Endura 4 I picked up on the exchange is performing beyond my expectations in this mid to heavy duty role. Just be aware that this "back-up" or "heavy duty" knife that you carry with you is something that you need to be confident with putting through the ringer. No safe-queens should be allowed here when you are seeking a "survival" knife. My backup knife experience is limited to folders (I prefer to carry them on my hikes) but honestly a high quality fixed-blade knife would almost certainly be better served in that role. While I was in Boy Scouts fixed blades were strictly prohibited, so for better or worse I to this day have always focused on folding blade knives for my hiking and camping.
 
AntDog said:
tl;dr: oh boy...
Been hashed, rehashed, and hashed again several times.
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Thanks Antdog, I was aware that I was entering a much-discussed area. The problem is that the proper analysis is difficult to find.

Fact is, like a lot of people I would like to hit upon a sound and logical reason to carry a larger blade, but when I went looking for one, I couldn't find any reason to justify it, when I already have a few mid-sized fixed blades in my camping kit, kayak, fishing boat and truck. I spent a lot of time on Youtube and forums looking for a good explanation as to what 'survival' knives had to offer me.

I could never claim to justify the extra weight if I was taking it backpacking, and large, sharp and unwieldy implements definitely have no place out on the water. As things stand, I think I might get away with claiming it is a truck knife for heavy duty tasks. But this is a bit dubious given I am not intending to start stowing a saw or in axe in my truck, so I am conscious I might be guilty of my own crime - not carrying the right tool for the job.

Bill, you've provided a thoughtful and well intended answer, so forgive me for being critical of it, but nowhere in your answer do you point to any particular reason that you are carrying a large knife. The fact that your larger knife can take more punishment is noteworthy, but this feature says nothing about its utility for its intended function, as a knife, nor what uses you might be intending to put it to if you ever had to rely upon it to survive. Large knife = good is exactly the proposition that I am struggling to make sense of. But it seems I might have to take some of the earlier advice in this thread and make a decision based on my own needs, and not base the decision on knife 'recommendations' or knife recommendation threads.
 
Camillus said:
Thanks Antdog, I was aware that I was entering a much-discussed area. The problem is that the proper analysis is difficult to find.

Fact is, like a lot of people I would like to hit upon a sound and logical reason to carry a larger blade, but when I went looking for one, I couldn't find any reason to justify it, when I already have a few mid-sized fixed blades in my camping kit, kayak, fishing boat and truck. I spent a lot of time on Youtube and forums looking for a good explanation as to what 'survival' knives had to offer me.

I could never claim to justify the extra weight if I was taking it backpacking, and large, sharp and unwieldy implements definitely have no place out on the water. As things stand, I think I might get away with claiming it is a truck knife for heavy duty tasks. But this is a bit dubious given I am not intending to start stowing a saw or in axe in my truck, so I am conscious I might be guilty of my own crime - not carrying the right tool for the job.
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I don't agree that proper analysis is difficult to find.
Why do you need a reason to carry a larger knife beyond the fact that you want to carry one? *shrug*, I don't feel the need to justify or validate any knife I carry or use, ever, to anyone.
As long as it pleases me, what other reason do I need? If a knife pleases you, what justification do you need to validate your desire to carry it ?
My main dove hunting knife is a Busse Basic 9. Know why? Do you think I clean the birds with it? No. I use it to hack through brambles when a bird goes down in a non-optimal spot. I don't use a knife to clean them at all.
Also, LARGE size does not a survival knife make. A knife doesn't have to be huge to be a "survival knife". That term actually grates on my nerves. A true survival knife would be whatever knife you have on you when you happen to be faced with a survival situation.
Bottom line is, carry what you want to. Want to carry a big knife? Do it. You don't need anyone's permission or validation other than your own.
 
I carry a large knife for its chopping ability, and for its longer edge-holding ability (more on that below)...

Batoning is not a means to justify a knife that is too big, it is on the contrary to justify a knife that is too short and too heavy in the handle (because of a full tang) and thus a poor chopper, as is currently in vogue in "bushcrafting"...

I think batoning is generally a bad idea because, unlike chopping, it traps the knife between two objects, and this prevents the blade from vibrating freely: This makes breakage more likely. (Ironically, a sawback probably softens the blows of the stick by biting into it, making breakage less likely...)

I've also found batoning requires a very specific beating stick that is thick but short: This is precisely what is not easy to find in good shape on a forest floor... So the effort to manufacture the stick is not inconsiderable...

On the plus side, it is a valid way to get to dry wood in a rainy environment... It does save on the forward part of the blade, which is by far the hardest to sharpen correctly...: Batoning is hardly complete nonsense, but I recommend doing it on a sawback...

However, the current fad for short blades is demonstrably nonsense, particularly for "unspecified" survival situations: In survival, the use of the blade is expedient, and for that sharpness means safety when the job is unpredictable. Sharpness is everything, and I'm sorry but a blade with nine inches has twice as much available sharpness as a 4.5 inch blade: This means, all else being equal, that the edge holding is twice as good on a twice as long edge...

Can you imagine, when choosing a steel, people justifying a steel that holds an edge half as well as another steel identical in all other respects? Yet that is exactly what people are doing to themselves with a short blade...

A good point to consider on a survival knife (from my own harrowing experience) is that a spear point is more suitable for digging and leveraging into pressure-treated wood, not for making a shelter, but for breaking into one... As I said, a survival situation is by definition unspecified...

Gaston
 
I think this is a busted topic to start with.

Every year, we get plenty of stories in New England of hikers or hunters who get lost or benighted and in need of assistance. These situations have the making of survival scenarios but in these situations, I have a hard time focusing solely on the knife. Any competent hiker, hunter or backcountry skier carries a kit of what he or she considers to be their essentials and while a knife should be a part of that, it is only a part. Better to ask, what is the survival kit they are carrying and recognize that the knife is a hiking/camping/hunting knife.

Occasionally you hear stories of somebody who ends up on the woods without expecting to be. For example, occasionally skier venture off trail and get lost. On skis, it's easy to go a long distance in deep snow and end up, by magic, in a very bad place. A teenager in Maine stayed out 2 nights a few years ago. Rescuers credit his mini shelter inspired by watching Cody Ludin as having saved him.

But even in a case like this, I can't get my mind to the dropped in the middle of nowhere fantasy. All I see is people wandering into the backcountry without adequate knowledge or gear.

At the edge of ski area boundaries, you sometimes see signs warning that the boundary of the patrolled area has been reached. I'm trying to imagine one of these signs saying something like, "Don't proceed past this boundary unless you are carrying a 9" knife." I can imagine because I've seen, many times, "Don't proceed past this boundary unless you are carrying backcountry essentials."

This thread sits at the intersection between our shared interest in knives and backcountry skills.

I think a more interesting and productive question is "What do you carry in your backcountry essentials kit and how does your knife fit into that?"


My general outdoor carry.
Outdoor Carry by Pinnah, on Flickr
 
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Sometimes I'm guilty of oversimplifying things but what about this: my 10" knife (I call it a camp knife not a survival knife) can do everything a mora can do and everything a smaller knife can do, but it can also chop fairly well, it's bigger and can complete a few more tasks fairly better because it's bigger.

A lot of these new wave "survival" knives might just be really great ergonomically awesome knives. The fact that they are on the big side doesn't mean they are unnecessary.
 
For instance, this knife can do everything that opinel can do but in addition to that, it has more versatility when it comes to the big chores. It's a knife and I'm a big strong man so I don't wanna hear about weight. I think it just brings a more well rounded tool to the game.
 
To each there own large knives have a place just as small ones do.
There is no correct answer which is why knives are awesome.

Batoning is a technique whether acknowledged or not. All tests such as even use in the kitchen build an empirical perspective of a knife for the knowledable viewer on a knife of interest.

most review videos are showing techniques that can be
Integrated into ones tactics.

Tactics tell one the "when, where and why" a technique is done

I feel alot of people get disenchanted with batoning because of poor tactics. It's not the technique for everything. An axe is ideal. But a knife is always with you.

Either way, enjoy your Becker. Sweet knife
 
Camillus,

Great post!

For the most part, IMO I see a "Survival Knife" much the same as "Doomsday Prepping" It is some perception that we allows ourselves to feel comfortable by having the tools, food, and clothing for some unforeseen circumstance that will never happen. And if it does in reality it won't matter what food or tools one has in the long run..... To the other point which I never really had thought about: It is rare that reviews illustrate examples of Survival knives doing actual food prep, cutting through helicopter fuselage and such, and other survival like tasks. Obviously few have a helicopter to poke through but tasks other than wood would be interesting to see.

I think for the most part "realistically survival" as many know it would be in the great outdoors in mother nature without and manmade resources. And there are plenty of knives that can do a good bit of invaluable varied tasks. However, If this was case the best survival knife is "The one that you have on person" :)

For myself I remember playing with the little plastic army men when I was a kid. This play invoked lots of imaginary things, ideas, and cool stuff! Today, 50 plus years later, although a collector and user, I often purchase a knife look at it and do the same type things, a way to keep the kid in me I suppose.

Great Original post topic!
 
I decided to to carry my Fallkniven A1 for deep woods backpacking mainly because a larger blade almost halves my camp setup time. Load out weight is definitely a consideration for me, but that problem was solved by hanging the A1 on a lanyard over one shoulder with a slip knot on it. Now I don't even notice it while hiking.
 
I own big knives such as an RTAK II, Condor Barong, a BK-5 and a SP-53, but I consider them camp knives. Their weight doesn't annoy me so much as their carry characteristics do. Always long, never out of the way unless lashed to a pack.

If I am going to lash something to a pack, it's gonna be a short axe, either my Roselli or a Fiskars X-7. Then I can carry a true belt knife like my SBT, BK-15, USN MK.1, ESEE-4 or a Mora that isn't always jabbing me or has me thinking I'm belt carrying a short sword when I want to just sit down on a log and drop the pack for a few.
 
I carry different types of knives for different situations. Sometimes big, sometimes small. When I hear someone refer to a knife as a "survival knife" I picture Rambo in a tarp poncho making a fire. This discussion is like the GM vs Ford vs Chrysler discussions of my youth. They lead nowhere. OP, I suggest carrying what you are comfortable with and stop referring to other folk's choices as "the problem". If you want to carry a broadsword into the woods and that works, then do it! If you can hike with a SAK, do it! Can we stop posting this topic over and over please?
 
Wow. Many tl;dr posts in here! My attention span isn't that long! :DD

The thing with "survival knives" is that that is a meaningless marketing phrase used to suck in people who fantasize that their outdoor recreation is a nonstop struggle with life and death.

So, ever since outdoor recreation became popular towards the end of the 19th century, knives have been made with the express purpose the feed that fantasy.

"I'll never make it to the case of beer in the trunk of my car over there without making a bow drill and a fuzz stick and batonning! My life hangs in the balance!"

It doesn't hurt anybody and, in fact, it all makes many, many people happy.

So its not really a "problem," in my book.
 
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The topic may have been rehashed to no end but the OP gave much attention to the "problem" and took the time to write his thoughts out clearly and politely. This does deserve some polite answer and this is mine : if you ever find yourself in a survival situation (unexpected by definition), your survival knife will be the one you carry everyday. So, choose your EDC with that in mind : an "easy to carry" knife which should be capable of more than opening letters, and most important of all, a knife with which you are totally confortable. The one that you feel is an extension of your hand. Such a knife is an asset in a "survival" situation. Otherwise you'd be better off with two gallons of water and a pry bar. If we're talking hiking or woodbumming, get what tickles your fantasy and try it out in the woods. You'll check out what works for you and what doesn't. You may be happy with a thick heavy knife, or a machete, or an axe, or a saw, or a small slicer or all together.
 
Choosing a "survival knife" is situation specific and there is a great deal of personal preference involved. I prefer to think in terms of a kit which includes a knife or two. Including several knives opens up your options more and allows you to choose blades that fit your experience and preferences. While it is true that a large knife can do most small tasks and a small knife can not do many of the tasks of a larger knife, there is a practical aspect to it.... what do you like to use? Are you carrying the "kit" on the trail for days? Can you safely handle the large knife for small tasks?

I think Dave Canterbury has the knife size about right for general woods duty. His upcoming ESEE blade typifies those preferences and he generally explains his choices fairly well in his videos. But they are his preferences based on his experience. The old choice or recommendation for a 5-6" fixed blade covers most contigencies as far as knife tasks go and is still small enough to allow for more dexterity in use for most. But I would always have a folder of some sort with me. That often is a SAK.

If you want a chopping blade, I prefer to go larger than 9" with 9" being the shortest length considered. For me, the choice is often... chopper or saw? Or both? The chopper usually gets left at home unless you are working from a base camp or car camping.

For most of us, the survival knife thing is a fantasy just like playing with plastic army soldiers as a kid.
 
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If you guys have not seen LastViking's Dogs head thread, you should check it out. Not only entertaining, but may put things in perspective.
 
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