The Re-Birth of the C-60 Massad Ayoob model

Just to present the "contrary" position, the Ayoob C60 is/was designed as a SD knife.

As a "fan" of SD knives (of which I have MANY, which is why I bought the C60 in the 1st place), fully SE blades do NOT function well as such BECAUSE when you attempt to cut thru cloth (which the perp will almost certainly will be wearing) the serrations hang up in the cloth and do not cut cleanly as a PE blade would.

If you use your C60 for NON-SD purposes, fine but, if you are using the C60 for what it was designed for, grab your PE version instead.

Take my word for it but, if you don't believe me, set up a dummy w/a jacket on and see what happens when you attempt a back handed slash cut on it w/the soon to be released fully SE version.

It will hang and stop and the prep will knock your lights out, unless you block the strike and use the C60 as a stabbing weapon instead.

Just saying . . . LOL! ;)

BTW, I have NOTHING against fully SE blades but their usefullness is limited to maybe 10-20% of the tasks that you may face.

Like any tool, use the best one for the task at hand and, if the task requires a fully SE blade, grab one but for daily duty a PE blade will function fine and will event handle the tasks that a fully SE blade will handle better but it will just take a little more time.

If in doubt, carry a PS blade instead. Is there a PS C60 in the plans?
 
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sgt1372 said:
Just to present the "contrary" position, the Ayoob C60 is/was designed as a SD knife.

As a "fan" of SD knives (of which I have MANY, which is why I bought the C60 in the 1st place), fully SE blades do NOT function well as such BECAUSE when you attempt to cut thru cloth (which the perp will almost certainly will be wearing) the serrations hang up in the cloth and do not cut cleanly as a PE blade would.

If you use your C60 for NON-SD purposes, fine but, if you are using the C60 for what it was designed for, grab your PE version instead.

Take my word for it but, if you don't believe me, set up a dummy w/a jacket on and see what happens when you attempt a back handed slash cut on it w/the soon to be released fully SE version.

It will hang and stop and the prep will knock your lights out, unless you block the strike and use the C60 as a stabbing weapon instead.

Just saying . . . LOL! ;)

BTW, I have NOTHING against fully SE blades but their usefullness is limited to maybe 10-20% of the tasks that you may face.

Like any tool, use the best one for the task at hand and, if the task requires a fully SE blade, grab one but for daily duty a PE blade will function fine and will event handle the tasks that a fully SE blade will handle better but it will just take a little more time.

If in doubt, carry a PS blade instead. Is there a PS C60 in the plans?
Click to expand...

So you see a problem with any SD Knife being SE?
 
Then there’s the Civillian. To each his own on edge and steel preference.

A brand new SE edge will likely snag. A sharpened SE edge is a different thing really. They perform differently when the teeth have lost their points and get more rounded. FWIW.
 
I think a PS blade is the best of both worlds.
Oddly i am carrying a fully serrated blade now but to be honest the last few times i carried any knife the bad guy always ran!
My guess is the gun i use as backup may have had something to do with it lol


my military has a 25/75 PS blade.
 
upload_2020-10-12_20-45-49.jpeg
What i’m getting at is there could be all kinds of options. SE & PE are good choices. 50/50, 60/40, 25/75 makes it complicated.
 
Can someone explain to me how to purchase a sprint run knife. Totally new to me and after looking at this one i am interested.
To be honest i think a special sprint run does sound exclusive and expensive?
 
mb> said:
Then there’s the Civillian. To each his own on edge and steel preference.

A brand new SE edge will likely snag. A sharpened SE edge is a different thing really. They perform differently when the teeth have lost their points and get more rounded. FWIW.
Click to expand...

This is correct. A "tuned" serrated edge on a sharpmaker is hard to beat for "high performance matter separation".

sal
 
mb> said:
Then there’s the Civillian. To each his own on edge and steel preference.
Click to expand...

True but that doesn't necessarily make the blade preference the right choice for the job in question.

mb> said:
A brand new SE edge will likely snag. A sharpened SE edge is a different thing really. They perform differently when the teeth have lost their points and get more rounded. FWIW.
Click to expand...

Perhaps but I'd rather not worry about the possibility of the knife snagging on clothing rather than slicing thru it.

I know from personal experience that a razor sharp PE Bastinelli-Marciada Pika (even with it's very short blade) will slice through a thick jacket like butter, even when only used defensively in a counterblock rather than a full slicing motion.

While I own a Civilian and a Matriarch, I wouldn't carry them for SD because I think that curved blade too limiting in the method of attack. It is designed to slice but would not be effective for stabbing. So, while there are "cool" and scary to look at (which is why I bought them), I don't think that they are the most effective SD knives that Spyderco offers.

I'm sure they'll do damage if "tuned" and are able to be used to slice thru flesh (and/or light clothing) but personally if I wanted to carry a larger SD knife, I'll pick a Tropen or Yojimbo (or Yojumbo) instead.

And if "tuned" serrated blades are so great for SD, why aren't more SD knives (including the Yojimbo) made w/that option?

FWIW, if I wanted to carry (or was carrying) such a blade that I needed to use in SD, I'd rather have my shorter vintage Merlin or the much cheaper and disposable Byrd Hawkbill instead which can be used more effectively because of their smaller size and shorter blade in close hand to hand combat than the longer bladed Civilian and Matriarch.

Just saying . . .
 
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Just have the knife designed with two blades one PE one SE with the holes staggered so in a flash you can deploy the one that suits your
situation. I know it would be a few ounces heavier and a little bulkier but if you are facing dire danger on a daily basis I personally wouldn’t have a problem with those issues. Call it the defensive series.
I know two bladed knives are not a new idea
but in a duel defensive Spyderco application might be just the ticket?
New thought: one blade deployed with hole one deployed with flipper? Would also reduce weight i think. The flipper on the left and would be the SE and the width could be similar to the mantra2 since slashing would not be its primary purpose but piercing.
It doesn’t have to be this model. A completely new design or modify another model.
 
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sgt1372 said:
BTW, I have NOTHING against fully SE blades but their usefullness is limited to maybe 10-20% of the tasks that you may face.
Click to expand...

I don’t want to take this thread too far down a debate rabbit hole. It doesn’t matter to me which edge someone prefers. At all. :) Just throwing some food for thought out there.

I used to think this SE limitation was true myself, and was biased against SE. But I’ve seen too many examples proving otherwise. In reality, PE is probably far more limited than SE. Some have even carried SE exclusively...for years.

My $.02 thought here...in the case of an EDC knife that you actually use, an SE blade would give you a better chance of keeping some sharp edge available... especially with VG-10, which is pretty low on the spectrum of edge retention.

sgt1372 said:
And if "tuned" serrated blades are so great for SD, why aren't more SD knives (including the Yojimbo) made w/that option?
Click to expand...

Great question. Perhaps it’s the snagging assumption already discussed. Or maybe it’s a cost or ease of manufacturing choice.

You bring up some fair points though. Sounds like we have similar preferences in smaller pikal style fixed blades. There are as many blade and self defense styles as there are people it seems.
 
I would have to respectfully disagree on a SE being unsuited for self defense.
You can always make a Mr. Janich inspired "meat man" and test the theory for yourself. SE blades have devastating results.
 
The Civilian is a special case. It is my understanding that it was designed as a “let go of my sidearm” knife for LEO’s. So there is a struggle for the holstered gun, cop and BG both have a firm hand wrapped around it, wrestling around, cop reaches up with one hand and unlimbers the Civilian from the front of his chest gear, and slashes down and back across BG’s wrist area. He’s not trying to stab. He’s not even trying for the kind of multiple layer clothing penetration necessary at the BG’s core, he just needs to cut through to the wrist. And the Civilian can most certainly do that. So can the G10 Harpy SE I always carry in my left pocket.
 
Great question. Perhaps it’s the snagging assumption already discussed. Or maybe it’s a cost or ease of manufacturing choice.

You bring up some fair points though. Sounds like we have similar preferences in smaller pikal style fixed blades. There are as many blade and self defense styles as there are people it seems.[/QUOTE]

It seems to me anyway that most people don't like SE Edges, maybe due to sharpening issues, or human nature. I didn't like them for the longest time. From what I glean from here they just don't sell as well. I'll bet if these people actually tried one many would become a believer. My favorite folders for SD are the Civilian, Matriarch, Lil Matriarch, Harpy and Merlin in the collection. My main SD Knife is a large fixed blade, mostly Cold Steel and (vintage) Gerber's. Occasionally the Jumpmaster 2, for something smaller the Street Beat works for me.
 
V-1 said:
I would have to respectfully disagree on a SE being unsuited for self defense.
You can always make a Mr. Janich inspired "meat man" and test the theory for yourself. SE blades have devastating results.
Click to expand...
There is one aspect of that debate that I do want everyone to take a hard look at. I've tried to get a conversation going about it over at the other Forum but so far few people think it's a problem.
When it comes to serrated edges and Self Defense I tend to agree with "V-1">>however there is one issue I feel that is much overlooked. The serration pattern ( and there are many) is a big part of it's performance>> it's also a big part of what it's intended use is. If you take those more "pointy", "spikey" type serrations that you see on a few of the Spyderco models from Japan I do think those could and would hang up on clothing as Mr. Michael Janich as pointed out. But if they would make serrations on SD blades similar to the one on several of Spyderco's "kitchen/culinary" models that could be a different story entirely.

I would be all for using a C-60 model for SD but the type of serration pattern they choose for it is going to play a big part in it's success.
 
sgt1372 said:
Just to present the "contrary" position, the Ayoob C60 is/was designed as a SD knife.

As a "fan" of SD knives (of which I have MANY, which is why I bought the C60 in the 1st place), fully SE blades do NOT function well as such BECAUSE when you attempt to cut thru cloth (which the perp will almost certainly will be wearing) the serrations hang up in the cloth and do not cut cleanly as a PE blade would.

If you use your C60 for NON-SD purposes, fine but, if you are using the C60 for what it was designed for, grab your PE version instead.

Take my word for it but, if you don't believe me, set up a dummy w/a jacket on and see what happens when you attempt a back handed slash cut on it w/the soon to be released fully SE version.

It will hang and stop and the prep will knock your lights out, unless you block the strike and use the C60 as a stabbing weapon instead.

Just saying . . . LOL! ;)

BTW, I have NOTHING against fully SE blades but their usefullness is limited to maybe 10-20% of the tasks that you may face.

Like any tool, use the best one for the task at hand and, if the task requires a fully SE blade, grab one but for daily duty a PE blade will function fine and will event handle the tasks that a fully SE blade will handle better but it will just take a little more time.

If in doubt, carry a PS blade instead. Is there a PS C60 in the plans?
Click to expand...


I disagree. SE will cut through clothes better than PE.
 
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FWIW, I just happened to see 2 listings for a fully serrated C60 here:

C60S Massad Ayoob 801 and here: C60S Massad Ayoob 447.

Priced at $425-$445 they're too expensive to me but, if you're interested, the 2nd one seems like the better value because it looks LNIB and box is supposedly signed by Ayoob; no authentication provided.

Since they're numbered over 200, they are not Collector Club knives but may have been part of an earlier numbered Sprint Run. Perhaps Sal can elaborate on their history and the total produced.

They're both still there as of this writing if you're interested.
 
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