The REAL Meaning Of "Lowballing" And What's Wrong With An Offer?

There are some people that are classic lowballers no matter what. You often see the BTT after the "email sent" post. :rolleyes:

On the other hand, I see people wanting, as a made up example, $60 for a $40 new Cold Steel that's clapped out. IMO, people who price their knives too high outnumber lowball people.
 
Knives are worth what some one will pay for them.

They have little intrinsic value outside of the salvage value of their materials and/or thier usefulness as a tool.

In this crowd you have people (myself included) who will pay top dollar for fancy customs because we value them for more than their salvage/tool value.....take the same knife to another venue and you would get a lot less...if you could sell it at all

The prices here rely heavily on the "demand" part of the supply/demand curve.

People (makers/retailers) set pries based on what they think they can get for the piece. A manufacturer usually bases this on the cost of the goods sold plus some amount of profit. Custom makers prices are more arbitrary and for the most part seem to be based on what the maker feels the market can bear. Nothing wrong with that....that's capitalism.

You can extrapolate this to the resellers market here. People post prices for what they hope/expect to receive. Nothing sacrosanct about this proceess and there are no "book prices" for most of this stuff. People should not be offended if someone offers less than their listed price. They have to decide if they value the trade item or money more than the knife they are selling. They might consider many offers to be "lowball" but judging by the number of BTTTs and blades that do not sell around here it would appear that many "overprice" their goods.
 
I agree that presentation of an offer lower than a seller is asking is important.

Sometimes, there is a very good reason for making a lower offer.

Say Joe Blow buys a Sebenza at his local tourist trap knife shop. Pays $370 for it, when he could have gotten it for $345 direct. Say that an internet dealer is offering an even lower price, say $305 (there used to be a couple of those). So when JB tried to sell his Sebenza and wants say $350 for it, and I think that a second-hand Sebbie that someone bought at the internet shop should go for about $275, then you can see we are pretty far off, but that my lowball offer is in fact fair and quite comparable relative to the initial price paid.

If I make a low offer, I generally try to present this kind of reasoning so someone is not offended. (They may be pretty sorry to find out how much less they could have had the piece for in the first place). Other times, when I am plain out being cheap, I put an offer out and say "if you have no other takers". That way, I let the person know that I understand that my offer is low and that they should only consider it if they have exhausted their other options.
 
Architect, the offer you are making is not lowballing. You are actually making a very reasonable offer based on what the knife you are wanting to buy is really worth. I have no problem with someone contacting me and saying, "Look, I have seen that same model of knife for sale recently for X dollars and I would be willing to pay that for it. There is nothing wrong with letting a person know that the price of his knife is to high. It may well anger the person who doesn't want to be told that he possibly paid too high a price for his knife and therefore he is not a very good shopper, but so be it.

The people that piss me off are the ones that know that the price being asked for a knife is reasonable and they still throw out a rediculously low offer. If I have a knife for sale for $350.00 and someone comes to me with an offer of $275.00 I will consider that a reasonable offer. Even if $350.00 is not over pricing the knife in the first place. If I am determined to get $350.00 then I will state that my price is firm, but thanks anyway. If I am open to offers I will maybe lower my asking price to $325.00 and see what the other person thinks of that. That is negotiating. If on the other hand someone that I think should know better offers me $175.00 for the same knife, he might just get back a response of, "Get real", or just a plain "no". I will also not entertain any further offers from this person. If I do not know the person making the offer, I will inform the person that their offer is far too low and that if they want to try again with one that is more in-line with reality then I would be glad to take a look, if not then please don't bother to contact me again.

There is a big difference between wanting to get a good deal on a knife you are buying or trading for, and being an ass. I think that most if not all of the people on this forum are intelligent enough to figure out which of these kind of people we are dealing with. If it is the later, I have no trouble with someone telling that person to take a hike. Telling them to F off is probably going overboard, but telling them bluntly that you want nothing more to do with their offers, is not.
 
I think we (oops) missed Gene's point: being that "lowballing" is not the buyer's action, but the seller's. Like a bait-and-switch.

Thanks Gene.

Personally, here's my take on lowballing - it's never happened to me.

OK, here's my take on negotiating a price:

You have 3 kinds of sellers out there:
(I know you guys are going to like this one :D:D)

1. used car salesman
--- out to make a fast buck
--- way overpriced intentionally, knows that you will try to talk him down.
--- if you persist, you can bargain, but you will go up against LOTS of pressure.

2. honest abe
--- puts up his best price
--- offended by lower offers, won't budge
--- won't sell except on own terms, or special circumstances.

3. traders/dealers
--- bargain hunters
--- always trying to strike a deal, move inventory
--- may not have high markup, but because of high inventory, every little bit adds up.

Having said this, I want to point out that people can be all three types at different times. I would classify myself in my last 3 trades/sales as "trader/dealer", then "used car salesman", then "trader/dealer" again. There are times that I have been an honest abe, but usually I don't because I really like to bargain - as both a buyer and seller.

It's like earning your keep. The problem comes when you get a bogus offer (too high or low) that is clearly ridiculous. However, even when I've had instances like that, with a little time, I was able to bring the value closer to a realistic offer.

I like to think that there are a few people out there who really got a good deal at my hands. Perhaps I got a knife at a lower price and was able to pass the savings to them. Sometimes it dribbles down my way. I'm ok with that as long as neither situation is "the norm".

I get aggravated with sellers/buyers who are in it just for the money transacting hands. Or with those that only bark for deals, deals, deals. Or those that consistently pressure and badger. I've not been burned yet, and hope it stays that way.

There have also been many times when I have made an offer and the response was "Ok. You got it" right away. Made me wish I had investigated the sale/trade a little better.

I figure, it will all add up in the end. Everybody gets their turn at the table...:)

Dan
 
Are we talking about lowballing or making a lowball offer? In business and in knife trading, I have always understood that making a lowball offer is when a potential buyer offers mush less than the seller is asking. Some people have the mentality that the lower the offer they make, the lower the buyer will come down to a compromise price. They know their lowball offer won't be accepted, but believe it will give them more bargaining leverage to say "let's just meet in the middle". Of course that tactic often just ticks the seller off and kills the negotiation.
I went to a business sales seminar some years ago titled "Principled Negotiation". One of the basic excersizes it suggested was that one should ask themselves every thirty seconds or so "what is my goal" while they are negotiating. Of course this implies not saying it out loud so those around you think you are nuts:) What it does is redirect you focus on what you are trying to accomplish and keeps the ego out of the equation. I have certainly seen ego clashes kill deals that could otherwise be worked out. Principled negotiation alway seeks the win-win scenario, where both parties are satisfied with the outcome.If somebody sends a lowball offer, it is best to concentrate on the goal of a successful sale rather than a making it an ego thing. Better to either hold the line on price or make what you think is a reasonable counteroffer and make that a bottom line. Sometimes the other guy will meet it, some times you just can't come to terms. Either way, reminding one's self of their goals during negotiation is a good way to keep The ego in check and keep the process rolling.
Another thing is that sometimes people make a lowball offer out of a lack of understanding of what is being offered. Sometimes a little information in the counteroffer goes a long way toward aiding the understanding of the potential buyer and may help close the deal. After all, never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity:D
This technique seems so simple that it is easy to pass it off as something you automatically do in the course of your dealings. I have found that going through the excersize is worthwile.
Dave
 
Dave, what we are discussing for the most part is the lowball offer not lowballing in the strict definition.

What you suggested makes a lot of sense. I don't know if I would always be able to be that reasoning in my thinking, but I suppose I could always give it a try.
 
So many of the above posts bring to light a subject that has caused rough feelings here among otherwise good people. Knives are very personal to us; unless you are a dealer in which case it's just stuff.

When someone has decided (happily or unhappily) to put his baby up for sale or trade, offers less than what he thinks its worth may offend. To this I say lighten up.

Both parties want to get a good deal and a little friendly haggling is, as some stated above, a time honored tradition. I've had guys offer me less than what i wanted and I politely pass. After a while, if I really want to get rid of the knife, I'll sometimes scroll through my old mail, find the offeror and contact him to see if he's still interested. Bottom line, a little friendly negotiating adds to the experience, I do not believe that most here seek to offend and unless given reason to, should not be taken otherwise.
 
I think it boils strictly down to two things:

respect
communication

If someone 'respects' the effort you are putting forth in selling something by having the knowledge it takes to represent it well in your ad, taking the time it takes to respond to 'all' offers (even the ridiculous ones) including all the small talk and then finally the patience to close a deal then their communication will reflect this. However, if they lack respect their 'communication' will show it. On the net this is amplified cause you simply see words on the screen. What I think some people do (myself included) is to 'run off at the keys' instead of the 'mouth' and maybe type a sentence that we thought little about but may come across in another way somewhere between condescending and insulting...

Flip to the other side and you're the seller... You've gotten 14 emails in the space of 4 hours and finally answered them all including a couple back and forths because someone happened to be online at the same time and you traversed into some small talk. You patiently wait a couple more hours because someone was nice enough to reply "I'll take it." and then not respond to your emails so you are now back in the hunt. BTW, prioritizing emails that come in within a few minutes of each other and sending subsequent emails saying "Hey man, you were the second person to make me the offer so I need to hear from 'X' first so just hang tight but I think he'll probably take it so don't get your hopes up." to someone who is really wound and excited about getting your knife, etc is quite stressful and hard to communicate effectively.

Anyway, after all this here comes a 'lower offer' which is either full of misc. junk or just WAY low and to add insult to injury (in your stressed out opinion at the time) you receive some ill-timed and un-wanted remark. I mean, really, who wants any advice after they've done the research on what something's worth and finally decided to sell at 'X' price? No-one. Or they would have asked for it before listing it! So, of course you fire back with some less than respectful remark and then off you go. Who's fault is it? In my mind it is the fault of the person making the 'low' offer as they know all that is involved from the get go and should have 'stuck to the facts' instead of including subjective information. And if you do this as a rule as Melvin then you should just let the stuff/return comments roll off your back when someone goes off as you can at least realize it is a not uncommon reaction. If the subsequent reply is WAY over the top then that is something else but in this day and age it is quite common to hear cursing and frequently... I work in a professional office and work with all types of people who have pain and the most common statement I hear from guys no matter their age, nationality, or income status...

"It forking hurts!", "This shite hurts!", "My thissity that is killing me!", etc. (but not fork, shite, thissity that, etc.)

and that is the first few minutes of the first day I've ever met or known them. People who are offended by cursing or curt statements (especially on the net) these days I believe are either too optimistic or just not being realistic.

As for people who offer 'low' on purpose that is the reason I no longer have garage sales...

(Wayne's World "Doodlety Doo, Doodlety Doo, Doodlety Doo..." voice insert as we jump to the past.)

I'm up at 5:30 getting stuff ready and dealing with the early ones who show up at 6:00 despite the clear statement of 'no early birds' cause that is courteous, right. Yeah, uh huh. Whatever! Did we forget to mention the 'discourtesy' it takes to show up early in the first place? Mmmm... That's another story so let's skip it. I Get all the stuff and deal with all the early ones and I finally sit down with a glass of water at the time it is supposed to 'start'. Lady pulls up in a Grand Caravan that is not yet a year old and walks right over to some kids clothes (Osh Kosh) that was worn ONCE and has been washed and pressed with a price off $1 shirt and $2 pants (together they were $35 new). Bitch, er um 'lady' walks up with attitude and grabs them aggressively and says "You know this stuff isn't even worth a dollar together!" (sniffs and rolls her eyes for effect) "How about I give you a quarter for both?" Me, "No way! I'll just keep 'em and use them for doll clothes if I have to sell them at that." Bitch, "Well, how about 50 cents then?" Me, (Top blown and steam rolling, ground shaking and PISSED) "Lady, you need to leave right now... I wouldn't GIVE you the amount of piss required to put you out if you were on fire much less SELL you something here! Get the hell out of here!" Did this lady 'respect' the amount of work I did to prepare and get ready for her to come in and buy? Nope. Did she 'communicate' effectively? Regarding price, yep. Regarding reality or respect, no. Was I wrong? Hell no! My property, my crap, my good price and my initial courtesy which was not returned...

Result? People laughed! They LAUGHED and then they bought plenty of the stuff and one couple even offered me more than I was asking but I wouldn't take it and honored my original price which they thought was a "DEAL!" to quote them both.

I think people are sick and damn tired of some people who initially jump and take advantage and then expect all the courtesy in the world in return. So, when someone replies with a 'mirror image' of that persons approach people respond to that. Is the 'moocher' pissed? Yep. Who's fault is it? Theirs!

Maybe I'm the only one but I ALWAYS try to put myself in someone else's shoes and show the utmost respect and courtesy from the get go in a deal... And that means keeping my damn advice to myself! Walk into any garage when they're working on your car and offer some 'friendly advice' to the mechanic and see what their reaction is or into any other place where professionals or experts work and try the same. Are we 'professionals' or 'experts' when we sell knives? Maybe not in the strictest of sense but quite close regarding 'that knife' and 'that deal'.

Courtesy runs both ways and you can't short change someone then be 'shocked' when they respond in kind!

Just my .02,
Shawn
 
Wow! Talk about a civil thread! Except for the obligatory "exception", I am amazed at how much wisdom and civility you guys have shown!

Again, let me explain that "lowballing" is a term that was originated in the retail trade for a SELLER that has no intention of SELLING the product at the price quoted. "Lowballing" really took off in the automobile trade. Most honest retailers will quote a reasonable price for a product they are selling. The consumer then goes on to one or more retailers until one finally quotes a price he cannot resist. He finally commits to the "lowball" offer. The SELLER is so polite and courteous but lo' and behold, there is a problem! She has forgot to add "whatever" or the wholesale price has suddenly gone up in the few seconds that she has been punching keys on the computer. It's a common trick in retail and the consumer is so exhausted in his quest for the "right price" that he gives in and agrees to the deal. Simple advice, (as in everything), DO YOUR HOMEWORK so you have a ballpark figure for what your looking for!

The above might seem a little complex, so for simplicity's sake, let's just say that what we are talking about in this thread is; "Making a LOWER OFFER". ;) So to be politically incorrect and again, for simplicity, we shall now call buyers who "lowball", "LOWFERS", (lower offer), or if you will, "LOAFERS".:) Also, an act of offering a lower price shall henceforth be known as a "loaf".

One thing I want to mention concerns knifemakers and knife shows. IMHO, I think "loafers" need not apply here. I know some pretty famous makers and they go to great lengths to come up with a reasonable price that will give them some return for their time and craftsmanship, (not to mention their expenditures to BE at the show!). If you want it, you pay the price! Such makers will also give you "subtle hints" if they are willing to accept less than the price advertised. If you can't afford their price, move on and hope the knife comes up in the aftermarket where you can make a "loaf".

One last thing. I know our knives are "special", especially since WE purchased them. They have souls and mean so much to us!:barf: How dare some ogre offer us LESS than we paid OR what WE think they are worth! Again, :barf:. Listen folks, if a loafer makes an loaf that offends you and you want to lash out, lower your testosterone level and just DON'T RESPOND! I honestly think the best response is a "thanks but no thanks".

These forums of ours are a lot of fun and "getting stressed" over something as insignificant as a "loafer" ain't worth the hassle. Hope I can "loaf" all of you soon! :p
 
Originally posted by Gene
The above might seem a little complex, so for simplicity's sake, let's just say that what we are talking about in this thread is; "Making a LOWER OFFER". ;) So to be politically incorrect and again, for simplicity, we shall now call buyers who "lowball", "LOWFERS", (lower offer), or if you will, "LOAFERS".:) Also, an act of offering a lower price shall henceforth be known as a "
Click to expand...

Nice one!

I vote for "LOWFERS". leaves more lattitude for interpretation. Plus it's more fun.

"loafers" is much too soft, and not pushy enough.

my $0.02

Dan
 
low-ball or low·ball (lbôl)
tr.v. Slang low-·balled, low-·bal·ling, low-·balls
To underestimate or understate (a cost) deliberately: “He often took illegal cash payments from developers in return for... low-balling the cost of construction and renovation work” (Boston Globe).

I have identified a number of modern useages when lowball applies to a bidder in an offer... if anyone is interested. This meaning certainly has some currency.
 
"Lowboys" are what we call those 16-ounce plastic Miller Lite bottles. They're really quite exquisite. You can drop them and they won't break, and they make nice spitters for the tobacco-chewer in every crowd; he can even screw the top back on after filling it with funk to prevent toxic spillage.

The only downside I see to Lowboys is that they're often never cold enough in the refridgerated section of grocery stores. I guess the plastic doesn't conduct cold as well as glass bottles do. That's why, and this is crucial, the best place to purchase lowboys is at the corner market, where while perhaps a little more expensive, they are stored in the glass-doored refridgerated cases.

Just a little food for thought...

Professor.
 
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