the role of a police officer

May experience with police is that they are just doing their job. Some get a bit zealous, but all in all I find them fair and good people. The only scrapes I have had was when I was in the wrong and got caught.

Add to your list of favorite quotes:

Who is the first person you call when there is trouble and the last person you want to see otherwise?
 
Hey, Danny and broken, take it easy. That "two to the body" thing is just a joke and definately not written in any policy. The only thing I meant in my little rant was that "I" have never seen a cop behave inappropriately. I never said that they never have, and I'm sure they will again. It's just my personal opinion that most cops are just trying to do a job. I understand cop humor is not always well received, and I apologize if I offended anyone.
 
By the way brokenhallelujah, just exactly what would your definition of abuse be regarding law enforcement? I dont think we could be that far off.....
 
you'll have to forgive us our sensitivity to braggadocio. Most of the banned a-holes were prone to that particular indulgence.
 
Sometimes it is the hunter who is least likely to see his prey . If I was a corrupt or out of control police officer then the one I would hide my activities from the most would be another police officer . I think it would be a credit to anyone who was not privvy to any wrong doing . It may mean that you were considered a threat to them .

I have personally had my registration dropped in a puddle , been threatened because I didn,t want to produce my drivers licence when not in control of a motor vehicle ,Almost been beaten by a football teams worth of border guards for going to urinate (in a urinal) without permission, been fined for a paid ticket by a corrupt judge and his court secretary .(both were sent to jail .) . I have seen a man have a revolver pointed at the back of his head for public urination in the bushes on a deserted road at two in the morning .
I still have a great deal of respect for law enforcement and the majority of my encounters were done by at least civil individuals who performed what can be a difficult task . They are sometimes dealing with distressed ,impolite, on the rare occasion hysterical, individuals and actually have to deal with true criminals who would think nothing of whacking them over the head given the slightest opportunity .
 
Kevin the grey said:
Sometimes it is the hunter who is least likely to see his prey . If I was a corrupt or out of control police officer then the one I would hide my activities from the most would be another police officer . I think it would be a credit to anyone who was not privvy to any wrong doing . It may mean that you were considered a threat to them .

I have personally had my registration dropped in a puddle , been threatened because I didn,t want to produce my drivers licence when not in control of a motor vehicle ,Almost been beaten by a football teams worth of border guards for going to urinate (in a urinal) without permission, been fined for a paid ticket by a corrupt judge and his court secretary .(both were sent to jail .) . I have seen a man have a revolver pointed at the back of his head for public urination in the bushes on a deserted road at two in the morning .
I still have a great deal of respect for law enforcement and the majority of my encounters were done by at least civil individuals who performed what can be a difficult task . They are sometimes dealing with distressed ,impolite, on the rare occasion hysterical, individuals and actually have to deal with true criminals who would think nothing of whacking them over the head given the slightest opportunity .

Kevin, I am curious about where these events took place? USA? Another country?

Having been on the "citizen's side" in some events, for instance we caught a guy with a stolen car in one of our apartment complexes. He was not a resident, just looking for a place to dump it.

We called the police, they arrested him, took him away. We were called to testify, twice it was continued. The third time the judge let him go. And he had a record. There seemed nothing wrong with the arrest, just that the "jails are overcrowded, blah, blah, blah." You read about this kind of thing happening a lot, and with more serious crimes.

It must be very frustration to the cops to see this happen over and over. Personally I would be tempted to leave the bad guys with a little hurt. The problem here is THAT would be taking the LAW in their hands..... Still, it would be a huge temptation, for me, anyway.

Probably good I am not a cop. Very TOUGH job.

In Atlanta (Fulton County) we have a SWAT team called the "Red Dogs." They have a street reputation that if you try to run from them, they will catch you and they WILL put you in the hospital. Best I understand, people do not run from them.

We live in a suburb of Atlanta called East Point. Crime is relatively low here even though there is a large population of poor, high profile people if you get my meaning.

The jail inmates must wear "clown suits." Huge black and white striped jumpsuits with orange day-glow hats. Not there usual "gangsta" outfits. People laugh and point at the road crews.

Secondly the jails are very clean. No TV, no magazines, plain food, no books except maybe, and this is rare, a Bible. But you have a basic clean box for a cell. Very boring. The jails in East Point are never overcrowded.

The word on the street is, "Don't get locked up in East Point." and "Don't run from the Red Dogs!"

I like this.
 
And another thing,

My previous home was in a "good" section of Atlanta. Big house on a busy street.

I was raking leaves in my front yard, had a few beers and was feeling mellow. A street guy came by (some people call them "homeless" others call them "outdoorsmen"). Anyhow he looked pitiful and I gave him $5 for "food." He shambled off.

But he came back. Often. I would find him sitting on my front porch, downcast, acting like he had nothing to lose. I asked him to leave, he agreed if I would give him another $5. I firmly refused.

I called the cops. They came quickly, but he was gone. I gave a description, but knew it would do no good. He made no overt threats, just passive-aggressive.

My wife was afraid to go outside because of him. He knew the police would do nothing and he must have figured that if he kept at it, I would pay him to leave.

I decided to get into his frame of reference. I went out and sat beside him and "mumble-talked" with him.

"I want you to leave."

"Give me $5 and you will never see me again." Yeah, right! He said that every time. I knew that if I did, he would be back, probably with friends.

So I said, "I have a gun in my pocket. If you do not leave, I will kill you. THEN I will call the cops. They will find you dead in my driveway with a f**king knife in your hand."

"I ain't got no knife!"

"You WILL by the time they get here. And they will bury your sorry ass in an unmarked grave. AND they will give me a medal and put my picture in the newspaper. They will do this because I am a tax-paying citizen and you are f**king trash."

I never saw him again. Would I have done it? He thought so. My wife was afraid he would come back, with friends. I didn't think so. He understood me, probably because I was talking his language.

And it just wasn't worth it for him to find out if I was serious. Maybe he decided to pick an easier target.

"The difference in trash and garbage? Garbage you dump. Trash you kill."
----------------------------- some movie I saw, I forget the title__________________
 
Both sides of the border . The threat because of my refusal to show my drivers licence while not in control of a motor vehicle happened in Canada . Most of the serious incidents happened in border-town U:S:A: . A corrupt judge and his legal secretary took the files of a dead State Trooper and preyed upon any out of town tickets that he had issued . Don,t ask me how they did it or why they thought they could get away with it . In absentia they revoked my right to drive in their State on the false premise I had not payed a twenty dollar ticket . I remembered that ticket and having paid it because the Trooper was bending over backwards not to give it to me (Apparently 105 in a 55 is illegal in some states ! ) I was put in handcuffs at the border by a crowd of border guards and another very polite well meaning State Trooper. i was transported to Said Judges residence and fined for not paying the fine and for driving with a suspended licence even though I was stopped at the border . Long story short ? I arranged to pay the fines to avoid any more unwarranted hospitality and was sent on my way back to Canada .
I balked at this disrespectful treatment and raised such a fuss over such a long period of time that they were investigated and incarcerated . I still to this day have only got part of my money back .
 
Kevin the grey said:
Both sides of the border . The threat because of my refusal to show my drivers licence while not in control of a motor vehicle happened in Canada . Most of the serious incidents happened in border-town U:S:A: . A corrupt judge and his legal secretary took the files of a dead State Trooper and preyed upon any out of town tickets that he had issued . Don,t ask me how they did it or why they thought they could get away with it . In absentia they revoked my right to drive in their State on the false premise I had not payed a twenty dollar ticket . I remembered that ticket and having paid it because the Trooper was bending over backwards not to give it to me (Apparently 105 in a 55 is illegal in some states ! ) I was put in handcuffs at the border by a crowd of border guards and another very polite well meaning State Trooper. i was transported to Said Judges residence and fined for not paying the fine and for driving with a suspended licence even though I was stopped at the border . Long story short ? I arranged to pay the fines to avoid any more unwarranted hospitality and was sent on my way back to Canada .
I balked at this disrespectful treatment and raised such a fuss over such a long period of time that they were investigated and incarcerated . I still to this day have only got part of my money back .

Good for you in getting them incarcerated!

I recently drove into Canada from the boondocks. I found that our Homeland Security was very active on our side of the border (Upstate New York). They patrol and stop people on back roads. A friend is married to a Nepalese woman. They were heavily questioned.

I guess they were looking for terrorists?

Years ago I dated a flight attendant. She drew the flight to Canada for a month or so. On her first trip there she made a big mistake. When asked to declare, she told them that the only thing she was worried about was that she had an ounce of pot with her.

They searched her luggage and then took her in a back room and had a female office strip her nude and do a body cavity search.

This happened on EVERY one of her subsequent flights. Of course I had to also make sure that she wasn't carrying anything before she left Atlanta. ..... :D

I tend to thank the TSA security people at the airport. We have been searched a few times also (not to the extent of the flight attendant). I don't care. I would rather they be over careful so that no more airlines are flown into buildings.

I also applaud anyone in a military uniform and thank them. I find that when I begin clapping, usually other civilians also join in.

Knock on wood, but I have never been mishandled by police, border guards, customs, etc., maybe a few French waiters got snotty.......

I try to give the outward appearance of being a law-abiding citizen, and mostly I do obey the Law. I would rather drive watching the speedometer than looking in my rear view mirror.

Also I like to choose my battles. A friend of mine was cited because he was driving with no insurance, also his driver's license and tag were expired. He ignored the Court date because he felt that the laws were unfair.

The Judge issued a Bench Warrant when he did not show. He was caught again. This time they put him in jail. He called me to bond him out. I did.

He then told me that he was going to plead Not Guilty, that the Court was depriving him of his rights. (???) That his defense was that he was going to quote the Ten Commandments to the Judge because they were "God-Damning" his rights. He asked my feelings on this.

I suggested that he get his registration and insurance in order and pay the fine or they were going to put him where the "sun doesn't shine" and keep him there a very long time.

Another friend wrote a letter to the IRS that he felt paying taxes violated his rights. He asked my opinion also. I told him that I did not see the sense in waving a big red flag at a bull who could ruin your life with a freaking form letter.

Maybe I got lucky in my dealings with authorities. Sorry for your mishaps. Certainly there are bad people in any arena. Sounds like you ran into a bunch of them.

Personally if I was in a battle, I would rather be a sniper than a guy with a sword.
 
I am new to the board ,,but let me say I have just retired from the LEO after 33 years, spent the last few as a patrol Sgt.

In all areas and levels of LEO's you will find good and bad,and just plain mean and stupid,, we try our best to weed those out during selection, but some slip through,, by and large the men and now women of law enforcement are doing their level best to enforce the rule of law, as fairly as possible.

One of the bigest problems we have is the unwillingness of Officers to use the right force on force,and it there for causes problems in an Officer's responce..

We are also facing the bigest change in the LEO field since the 60's,, there is a rapid and ongoing millitary mind set taking over, more so now then in the 70 and 80- after RVN,,,it is in some way good , but in others its just plain bad...

Once you remove the "cop on the beat" and loose touch with the people you are sworn to protect,, NOTICE I DIDN"T SAY PERSON,, it really enforces the "us against them" type of aditude.

And remember we hire from the same gene pool as every one else.
 
Dave James said:
Once you remove the "cop on the beat" and loose touch with the people you are sworn to protect,, NOTICE I DIDN"T SAY PERSON,, it really enforces the "us against them" type of aditude.

I couldn't agree with you more, Dave, and welcome to the forum!

In reading over my original post here, I realized two things.

One, I kinda took off through the bushes with this thread in my teeth. Sorry, Danny. Two, I said some pretty harsh stuff. I don't recant any of it, but I do want to amend it to make clear that I don't have a problem with the institution of LE as a whole. I have known some really good cops who were really great people. As with most things, quality human beings ususally take their morals and ethics to work with them; bad folks do too, unfortunately.

The problem in THIS community is... well, there are a lot of problems with LE in this community, a major one being what Dave said above: they are not sufficiently involved with, and therefore accountable to the community. There is a real dearth of self-scrutiny and transparency; we have had a rash of people dying while in LE custody, and the investigations have been neither particularly forthcoming or satisfactory.

So, in MY little corner of the world (current corner, anyway), we have a problem with bad cops. Some of them really bad. We need change, and just haven't been able to make it happen. The good ol' boy network down here is, well, ubiquitous.
 
Dave James said:
We are also facing the bigest change in the LEO field since the 60's,, there is a rapid and ongoing millitary mind set taking over, more so now then in the 70 and 80- after RVN,,,it is in some way good , but in others its just plain bad...

THAT, to me, is the most dangerous issue out there when it comes to law enforcement. The militarization of the police force, the tendency to go "tactical," to treat everything as a SWAT issue...after all, there's no such thing as too much force, right? I have sure seen a lot of fully-kitted tactical MP5-toting SWAT officers on the news these days.

A recent study I read about in the Chicago Tribune mentioned that even though violent crime is at a 30+ year low (and has been steadily falling since the 1980s), the formation of police tactical SWAT teams has increased something like 70% nationwide in the last 10 years. I think this reflects the change of attitude in law enforcement that Dave mentioned above. The tendency to go military, to use overwhelming firepower- even though the statistics don't reveal such a need.

I think a real disconnect is being created between the police's original function (public servant) and the perception of new police recruits, which I suspect is more and more along the lines of "let's go kick ass and take names" and glorifying violence and military in the name of "good" versus "evil" and "we're just doing our job." I say this as an ex-soldier, who was throughly immersed in such a culture. The military needs to demonize its opponents, in order to wage war effectively- but I certainly hope that the police doesn't adopt those attitudes.
 
Trends change in Law Enforcement and they are usually due to a Master's degree/Doctoral thesis that some administrator did and then presents at the Chiefs of Police/Sheriff's conference. All of a sudden it's the rage and "Why haven't we been doing this, let's get up to speed on this!" Weed and Seed, Neighborhood Oriented Policing (or Nobody on Patrol as street cops call it) Broken Windows, Comunity Oriented Policing..shall I go on...

The real problem is the mistrust most departments have of thier officers (some of it earned). If you are out walking around, talking to people and shop owners, you are going to get corupted, or take gratuities..ie "I noticed you spent 6.5 minutes at this call, what were you doing there for that amount of time and you only had 75 miles on your vehicle tonight...Then you have the other stream of COP/NOP "Get out and talk to people, you need to have some positive contacts..."

The ship gets steered at the top and that top person is a politician. Elected as a Sheriff, appointed as a Police Chief. As the proverb goes "If the head of the fish stinks, the whole fish stinks"

Having defended officers as a rep and arrested a few as an investigator, they are just a mirror of the community they are drawn from. I met Craig Peyer (CHP Officer arrested for murder of a young girl) before he was arrested and he was teaching womens self defense classes. I don't think less of the CHP, and he wasn't the only CHP officer arrested for murder. It's a huge department, with a long history. You are bound, given the size of some organizations, to have some bad, really bad, apples. That said, good supervision, training, pay and a culture of providing the best conduct makes for a good department.

Thats's my 2 cents
 
soupah said:
I think a real disconnect is being created between the police's original function (public servant) and the perception of new police recruits, which I suspect is more and more along the lines of "let's go kick ass and take names" and glorifying violence and military in the name of "good" versus "evil" and "we're just doing our job." I say this as an ex-soldier, who was throughly immersed in such a culture. The military needs to demonize its opponents, in order to wage war effectively- but I certainly hope that the police doesn't adopt those attitudes.

Bingo. Not a point that I thought to bring up, but a telling one, I think. Somehow, somewhere, someone in our society is redefining the role of law enforcement. What happened to the idea of "peace officer?" Why are the police judged to be doing their job if they are making MORE arrests? I would think that more effective involvment in the community would result in fewer problems, hence fewer arrests.
 
The formation of SWAT teams really means nothing. The issue is "when are they being used?" If they are knocking down the door of some houswife with an arrest warrant for shoplifting thats one thing. If they are called out to deal with a man holding his girlfriend at gunpoint or grabbing a felon on a warrant that is known to have weapons and be violent, well thats another. The idea of a SWAT team is that they have the specialized training and equipment to handle the types of situations that the patrolman cannot. I have no problem with that concept and was a SWAT team member once myself. The idea that when a cop joins the SWAT team he becomes some sort of soldier-like killing machine that cant treat an old lady on a car stop civilly is insulting. Not that anybody here has said as much, but I have heard the point made elsewhere. Some of the biggest SWAT bashers I have come across on the job have been other cops that had tried out for SWAT in the past and were rejected. Again, not that anybody here is like that...just tossing out my opinion.
 
G22 said:
The formation of SWAT teams really means nothing. The issue is "when are they being used?" If they are knocking down the door of some houswife with an arrest warrant for shoplifting thats one thing. If they are called out to deal with a man holding his girlfriend at gunpoint or grabbing a felon on a warrant that is known to have weapons and be violent, well thats another. The idea of a SWAT team is that they have the specialized training and equipment to handle the types of situations that the patrolman cannot.

Certainly sir, you are correct. I suppose I should clarify by saying that I DO think the formation of SWAT teams really does mean something- something quite disturbing.

Make no mistake- if a tactical police unit is formed, it WILL be used; there is no better justification for all the expenditure it requires (time, training, equipment and so on). And if we remember that violent crime is lower than it has ever been in the last 30 years, and tactical police teams are forming at higher-than-ever rates, then we see that they're going to be used SOMEWHERE. Maybe for that housewife with the shoplifting warrant? Probably not, but they will certainly be used for other things that might not be necessary. I want a public-service police force, not soldiers in black "camoflauge" with badges. I'm certain it can eventually create an "us-versus-them" mindset for some officers.

You are correct in saying that it is possible to be a SWAT team member and not a "killing machine", and I believe it when you say you had no problem with the issue yourself. I'm just worried at how the profligeration of SWAT teams and tactical response training has affected the mindset of the police force at large.

Granted, I'm sounding alarmist, but I think if we looked more closely at the of tactical evolution of our police in America, we would be a little concerned. The last thing we need is a police force that wants to act like the military (and vice-versa). If someone really wants to kick ass and take names, they should join the infantry and get it out of their system. I did- thoroughly.
 
Well my dept. team is only part-time. A few training days a month and maybe 5-10 deployments (at the most, including joint task force drug house sweeps) a year. If you are talking about full time teams with cops looking to justify their team maybe I can agree with you. We are street cops 99% of the time and SWAT only when necessary. There is no "must use" issue here. As a matter of fact the brass trys to avoid the overtime costs of activating them unless its absolutely necessary. Our team has been around since the mid 80's and I just dont see that problem in my neck of the woods.....
 
I can see that this thread has run it's course. All participating appear to agree that there is good and bad in everything....I hope that any and all law breakers within the ranks of those sworn to uphold the law will be weeded out. I think that as long as cops are human, we will have problems to some degree or another. I still stand by my statement that the vast majority of those wearing a badge are doing a fine job, and I will continue to support them.... Peace.
 
My Dad did gunsmithing work for a lot of cops, and for years the local PD shot his reloads. My brother was a cop for almost 16 years. My son just started as an officer week before last and last night made his first arrest of a gang banger who was robbing a store. We are very proud of him.

That said, all it takes is one incident to sour you on police forever, esp. if you make the blanket assumption that one bad apple ruins the whole barrel.

Incident: we call the San Jose PD in 1970. Someone is breaking into the house across the street. 45 minutes later they roll up loudly with lights flashing. Sit outside with their spotlights flooding the front windows for 5 long minutes, while the thieves leave out the back and over the fence. Voila! No arrests and no paperwork.

Incident: A black man is sitting on the chest of a woman at 2 in the morning on our front lawn, slashing her with a straight razor. Her screams awaken us. She is a mass of blood, with defensive wounds all over her arms and hands. Her dress slashed open. I am 12. My Dad calls the SJPD, then grabs his 1911 and heads outside and holds it on the dirtbag. The cops show up and arrest my Dad and confiscate his pistol. While they are busy with him, the black guy gets up from the ground and saunters off, blood dripping from the razor. They never find him.

Incident: I am stopped in 1983 because my idiot boss didn't put registration stickers on my cab. It is called in and I found that it was paid but no sticker was put on the plate. Since he now has no reason to hold me, arrogant, abusive 30 years on the job CHP officer writes me up for doing 40 in a 25. I protest that the speed limit is 35 and that's what I was doing. Gives me a hard time, (for some reason the cops assumed all cabbies were scum), and drives off. I walk back 50 feet and check the speed limit sign: 35 mph. On the ticket the street name is wrong. The license plate # is also incorrect.

I drive over to the local coffee shop and spot a CHP Sgt. there and show him the ticket and explain the errors. He shakes his head, and says don't worry about, he'll take care of it. Then he takes a look at the officer's name and hands it back to me and says he'll talk to him.

3 weeks later at traffic court, the officer stands up, takes the oath, and swears that the speed limit WAS 25 mph. at the time of the infraction, but has since been CHANGED to 35 mph., and then looks at me triumphantly. I called him a liar. I was found guilty and paid a fine and my insurance went up with another point on my record.

Incident: It is 1986 and I am delivering newspapers at 3 in the morning because I am out of work and severly broke. I do 300 papers a night, for $25 cash. I am stopped by a Santa Rosa PD cop and cited. The reason? Littering. Throwing newspapers from the car, is littering.

Incident: At 1 in the morning a completely naked woman is standing in the center lane of 101 South. I narrowly miss hitting her with the cab at 70 mph. I take the next exit and pull into an all night coffee shop, run in and tell a CHP guy sitting there that there is a naked woman about to become roadkill out past the frontage road not 300 yards away. He just stares at me and takes another bite of his french dip and goes back to watching the TV behind the counter.

Incident: I spot two kids smashing a huge plate glass window with a brick. I call the dispatcher from my cab and she calls the cops. The kids are laughing walking downtown. I wait 20 minutes and turn down several calls waiting. A bored Santa Rosa PD officer shows up. I tell him what happened and point out that the kids are now a mile away, but I know where they are.

He asks can I ID them. Yes. Then he says I will have to fill out lots of paperwork if he files a report. Do I know that? Is that OK? Yes. Then he says I will have to appear in court. Is that OK? Yes. You know they will schedule it on your day off? Yes, OK. Meanwhile while this joke with a badge is trying to get out of writing a report, these guys are getting away.

Then he says it doesn't matter because the store has insurance! Then I get mad and tell him if he doesn't get off his ass and stop these guys, maybe his Chief would like to know that? He reluctantly follows me downtown, where fric and frac are kicking the hell out of a mailbox, trying to knock it over.

I park at the cab stand while he goes over and talks to them. After two minutes he shakes their hands and they walk off quickly. He comes back over to me. Well, I asked? He says, "I asked them and they say they didn't do it."

That's it??? Yep. So thanks for your assistance, and he drives off. I have lost at least $30 worth of runs.

I sit at the cab stand, and 5 minutes later a rock smashes my back window. I get out and fric and frac give me the bird, laugh and run off.

From that day on I could see the Hope diamond being stolen and I wouldn't lift a finger, and certainly would never call the cops.

Follow up: a few years ago I am driving home 150 miles at 3 in the morning and can't stay awake. I am the only guy on 6 lanes of 280 North and keep nodding off. The truck is drifting from the fast lane to the slow lane and back again for miles.

I am stopped by a CHP officer, who asks what the hell I am doing, he can see me nodding off, and do I want to get killed? He escorts me to a Denny's, tells me to go in and tank up on coffee, and to stop being an idiot, and if he sees me again on the road driving that way I'm his. He cut me a huge amount of slack, and that one guy just about made up for every one of the others losers I had run into over the years.

So, sorry for the long post, but I've learned cops are human beings just like everyone else. People expect perfection from people who are inherently imperfect, as are we all. The difference is accountability needs to be in place.

They have a huge amount of responsibility, and I could never be one. In the cab when someone gave me a really hard time I just thumped them and grabbed them by the collar and tossed them into the nearest roadside ditch and called in a "no service." Cops don't have that option, at least not usually...;)

Norm
 
I've put off posting in this thread for a while now. I am a police officer, I hate the idea of a dirty cop. However people always complain when i pull them over, (32mph in a 20mph) failure to stop at a stop sign, ect ect. They say why are you harrasing me, ( Im not Im enforcing the law) and Im usually pretty leniant. But what really p***es me off is when they call in to complain about me doing my job. Or when they get out of the car during the traffic stop and I yell at them to get back in,(safety issue) they call and complain. But when someone remebers some small kindness I've done for them, or a parent thanks me for stopping and talking to the kids or passing out candy on xmas or halloween or passing out baseball card. That makes it all worth it. .

James
 
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