The role of the modern day urban carry fighting knife ?

S

Scott Evans

Joined
Oct 4, 1998
Messages
193
I see the role of the modern day, urban carry, fighting knife as one of the following:

First and foremost as an aid in retaining the firearm or as a tool used in creating distance necessary to use the firearm.

Second as the “alternate” to the firearm in situations where the close proximity of the threat combined with the speed and position of the attack make the knife the better choice. This would include situations where by-standers are in the area behind your attacker and there by at risk from rounds that travel through the target. If there is not time or distance for you to alter the line of your shot and the Bad Guy is closing then go to the knife.

Third
When the firearm is not legally an option.

The knife should be carried in such a way that it can be deployed immediately into a strike. Off side carry in my mind is ideal making the weak hand the primary knife hand. However, it should be positioned so that the strong hand can acquire it as well, albeit probably not as fast. The Knife should be small enough to conceal and large enough to be effective. To me that puts the blade length at 5” - 5.5”. Fixed blades are preferable to folders in the role of a fighter.

That’s a brief skim of my thoughts on my most favored of knife category types.

What’s your view of the role of modern fighters?


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“We are the pilgrims masters; we shall go, always, a little farther.”
 
I think you summed it up nicely. Gun first. Knife to protect gun, or if the gun is unuseable for situational or legal reasons. Something fast, easily carried and easily deployed to an immediate strike.

My only gripe would be that I don't feel the term "fighter" should be attached to this type of knife. I see "fighter" as meaning a knife intended for combat with an armed, awares opponent. "Squaring off." "Duelling." That's a role for huge Bowies with full double guards. In this country, the "fighter" is not a thing of this century.

I feel the type of knife we are discussing deserves its own term, and I've taken to using "defensive knife." Spyderco effectively defined this category (for folders, anyhow) with the Civilian, a knife designed to let its wielder retain a weapon or rapidly extricate him/herself from a violent situation. I think it's a distinct category separate from "fighters." I also think that the industry continues to blindly produce "fighters" and "folding fighters" (I laugh at the term) to fill this role.

-Drew
 
I dunno...if you CAN pack something big'n'ugly you'll flat-out panic any idiot stupid enough to screw with ya.

And that's a GOOD thing, as Martha Stewart might say if she shacked up with Donna and took Kali!

smile.gif


Jim
 
Corduroy
Likewise, I have thought twice about the term Fighters. I certainly see “Squaring Off” or “ Dueling” as something other then the knife and role I have tried to describe (stupidity in one of its more undiluted forms is more like it). However, if a situation ever calls for the proper use of a knife in the defense of your life or that of another you are absolutely in a “fight”. As such I have stuck with the term fighter. Because it is the weapon of close proximity, last resorts and immediate need, in my mind it is likely that your attacker will not know you have a knife until it is to late for him. If time is present to exchange words and show weapons you are best to exit the area or draw the firearm or both. I have often thought the best term for the type of knife I have in mind is “Pure Fighter”. No extras but everything needed to do the most in the least amount of time. For me I go the extra step and re-label knives designed to engage blade to blade as Dueling Knives.

 
I agree with Scott Evans' impressions. In additional to his thoughts....

In an ideal world, I think defensive knives should be made and sold in pairs. They should be identical or nearly identical. They should be equally comfortable in forward as well as reverse grip. Their carry positions need not be compromised to accomodate the off-hand. It should follow the KISS rule, designed for comfort, concealment, and quick/secure access. The blade handle shape should be made in such a way that it would not easily slip out of the hand, or the hand slip into the blade. And yet, it should not easily catch on clothing. The blade shape need to be such that it can easily adapt to utility chores.

Off the top of my head....

[This message has been edited by SB (edited 15 November 1999).]
 
SB,

Why in pairs?

I agree with your premise that the knife should handle well in either the forward or reverse grip. I would add that it should also be one that moves well from the forward to the reverse. Some knives feel great in either but snag when you attempt to make a transition. The handle must be snagless in grip transition IMO.
 
Scott:

Yes, smooth transition!

Why in pairs?
Click to expand...

In a word: Versatility.

One can be PDW while the other a back-up. If you lose or break one knife in a struggle, you'll have the other on hand.

I can't carry my pistols everywhere I go, and in these circumstances, my knives become my PDW. The ideal back-up to the primary knife is another primary knife. If my life is in danger, well, I wouldn't feel too safe with just one knife.

This is true with both guns and knives, but off-hand draw is often very tricky, not to mention slow. I fail to see how useful they are in the middle of a struggle. The easier solution would be to to have another one for your weaker hand. That way, you can have an knife ready for the offhand without sacrificing speed and access.

In the event of an emergency, you can pass one of your knives to a friend, family, or loved one for them to protect themselves. Kind of controversial, but it's good knowing the option is there.

If you're somehow caught off guard and an opponent demanded that you drop your knife, you can drop it knowing that you still have another one of those on your body but they don't. A very comforting thought IMO.

And there is always the esoteric method of fighting wielding two knives simultaneously. Although, I admit it probably ranks somewhere along with full auto fire, there doesn't seem to be too much realistic needs. But again, the option is there.

Hmm, that's all I can think of off the top of my head.

$.02
 
Gentlemen,
I have to ask where do you hang out, that you feel you need two 5 1/2" fixed blade knives, and a gun? I live in Brooklyn, and Brooklyn has a real bad reputation when it comes to violent crimes. Are you just playing war games, or do you really live in a war zone? Please don't get me wrong, I do believe in being prepared, but prepared for what? I mean do you go out of your way to look for situations, where your going to need a weapon in each hand. Your lives must be a lot more exciting than the average person, certainly more than mine. Most Police Officers never fire their guns in action in a whole career. I don't know any that have one let alone two fixed blades on them. What are you guys up to? Just curious.
 
Phil,
An inserting post. You state you believe in being prepared yet it seems that guns and knives are not in your plan. For one who lives in a violent area I am wondering as to what preparations you consider prudent should you be confronted by armed attackers?

Last if I follow your logic correctly … Since most LEO never use their firearms ... they should not carry them??


------------------
“We are the pilgrims masters; we shall go, always, a little farther.”
 
For Brooklyn New York, i think a 45 auto plus 1 grande Vaquero and 1 Gunsite would suffice. Plus 3 xtra clips for the 1911.
 
Ivan,
That sounds about right!

Scott,
I can't carry any of the equipment, that you have, and not be breaking the law. I am a law abidding citiven. Unexpected violence is always possibility. I try to not put myself into situations of imminent danger. Guns and knives are not my primary weapons, that I keep concealed between my ears. I also know how to use other "Body weapons." I'm not anti-gun, should Police have guns? Sure. Should you be allowed to carry as many weapons as you like? Why not, who am I to judge. I think you missed my point, why do you feel the need to have all of these weapons? I don't see a knife as a tool when it's to back up a gun. Honestly, I was just trying to see the world through your eyes, not to say you were wrong.
 
Er, I don't want to get stuck in a debate that will circle endlessly.

Briefly however, if you think something is too much or too little, that's your opinion and that's fine. Nothing wrong with that. In fact, logistics is much easier. On the other hand, I have a friend who lived in New York all his life and is active military right now. Even HE couldn't get a conceal carry license. I don't know who you guys are, but it's incredible that you guys can carry guns in Brooklyn. Not that I doubt you, but if you've got a golden opportunity carry more than one, why not go for it?
smile.gif


You know, for a while, I was chastised for carrying two pistols. Dunno why, because later on, many people got on the bandwagon about always carrying a back-up pistols, and that means having two guns. Realistically, if you're in Brooklyn, the best the average person can swing is probably a New York legal blade. If that's your PDW, you'll probably want another one for back-up to that, even if it's just an utility folder.

Anyway, enough about that. To me, it's not about why. It's about the fact that I CAN and WANT TO. Why go half-way when you can go all the way?
smile.gif
 

Phil,

SB seemed to explain clearly why he feels two knives are better then one. Redundancy … in the event of failure and increased options in deployment. These benefits seem to be more then an adequate trade off for the relatively small inconvenience one would endure by adding a second knife to your person.


The roll the knife fills today, with regard to personal self defense, was the target of the topic.

I suppose that a justification of why we feel preparations for defending one’s self in our society ( Brooklyn or else where) is a valid tangent although one that I thought to be self evident to most. Also, your question of

“… I do believe in being prepared, but prepared for what?”

is part of the same. So the “world through my eyes”, here in home-town Jacksonville, NC (the All American City), is as follows:

A former employee of mine was recently (5 weeks ago) driving home late one night on US Hwy 17 from Topsail Island back to his home in Jacksonville. However, his car broke down on a lonely stretch of that highway and he elected to walk the 3 miles to the nearest gas station. A pickup truck pulled over as he was walking. He assumed they were there to help; however, they beat him with a baseball bat instead.
He was not armed and there was no place to run. He is OK now.

I became rather good casual friends with a fellow who worked in one of our local gun shops. About 2 years ago his son, who was a CCW permit holder, was taking care of some shopping at the Jacksonville Mall. A Mall that has private security and parking lot surveillance as well as off duty Police officers on site. The son left his firearm in the vehicle as the Mall was posted a “No-Firearms allowed” zone by the management. On his way out of the mall in the parking lot near his vehicle he was jumped and beat with a 2x4, then robed. …. He died a few days later.


About six years ago a lady who we know from Church was robed at gun point at an ATM here in town. She was unharmed … but she was also helpless to defend herself if the robber had other intentions.

Also, about six years ago …. I was walking in my development. I was confronted by one man while others attempted to circle around behind me. I drew my weapon and chambered a round (at that time I carried in cond. 3). They fled and I have not seen them since.


This is not as bad as Brooklyn but this is where I live. The above examples are not all that I can give but they are all people who I know. I drive Hwy 17, sometimes at knight, sometimes alone, sometimes with my wife and kids. My family shops at the Mall and we have used that same ATM.

The above type situations are likely anywhere in the US. My preparations for defending myself and my family are made with this realization squarely in view.

It is a shame that legally you cannot likewise make prudent, effective, preparations for your own safety. However, you still have the freedom to choose a home in a location where you can. I grew up in NJ … after leaving The Marine Corps I elected not to return. One of the contributing factors was most certainly NJ’s ridiculous gun laws.

I hope this helps clarify my perspective on why I feel one needs at least one knife with his firearm for daily excursions.



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“We are the pilgrims masters; we shall go, always, a little farther.”
 
I live in NYC(Brooklyn) also. In my younger(say 16 or less) years, I was either robbed or, for want of a better word, hassled, at knife or gun point(one was a real revolver, the other an air pistol) more that once. I could have been killed or badly injured in all cases. I was lucky. They always came in groups(4 and above). No one in my neighborhood seemed to have the balls to do a mugging by themselves, but that is beside the point. My opinion is that the "bad guys" will always arm themselves however they want to, and the honest law abiding people get screwed by the weapons laws. I carry a legal size folder and a palm stick/olisi palad(the FMA name for a kubotan type of weapon). In NYC, you can't carry anything with a blade length of 4" and over. Forget about automatic knives, Balisongs, and double edged knives. CCW permits are very hard to come by. I won't even try to apply because it would be a waste of my time. In fact, the CCW permit problem was in the news yesterday! If I could carry them legally, I'd choose an ASP baton, and a fixed blade with a 5" or 6" blade, but that's not going to happen. So I settle for what is legal.


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K. Williams
kel620@aol.com
Modern Arnis Student
 
Scott, thanks for the clarification. I can understand you wanting to protect yourself and your family, with any means possible. I would of course want to do the same, if it were an option. I don't find myself in the same kind of situations, you and K.W. describe. Maybe it is just luck, maybe I've just been able to avoid them. I do carry two legal sized knives, which is more than most people I know. I'm an ex-street kid, and do know how to handle myself. Would I want to go up against a thug with a gun? I don't think so. I also don't see myself as Bernie Getz, a victim, waiting for the next attack. In general the threat comes from gutless punks, who have no consideration for their lives or anyone else. These low lifes aren't hard to spot, they're in a street uniform. Because they are punks they are looking for easy marks, I don't look easy, which I think works in my favor. Would I like to get out of NY? Yes. Would I move to where it was easier to get and carry a gun? No, it wouldn't be a consideration. I do fully respect where your coming from, and wish you well.

PhilL
 
Phil,
I agree completely with you that avoidance is tactic number ONE. Being aware of ones surroundings and identifying potential danger scenarios is as much a discipline as any other area of self defense and with out question the foundation of tactical preparation. From your description you have developed such a foundation. If one were to spend much time in developing skills with weapons and ignore the principals of “avoidance” then I would perceive a problem. For many, who from time to time, engage in specific discussion of specific areas of self defense the principles of avoidance are so basic that it seems overly redundant to bring it up every time. We agree, We agree, We agree.

Modern “fighting Knives” have become my choice in what I collect. To me the collection has far less value if the “user role” is not examined or is not “genuine”. That said for me to talk of one with out overlapping into the area of the other is not likely.


Any other philosophies with regard to the role of modern day fighting knives?
 
Well … lets hope you don’t drive, carry knives, play baseball, hammer nails or engage in anything else where by you are entrusted with an implement capable of harming another.
 
Scott:

See if you can track down the summer 1989 issue of knives illustrated. It features an article written by Ernest Emerson entitled "Personal Protection Knives". I read this article when I was 15 and it was a real turning point in my education with regard to knives as weapons. It takes into account social considerations such as laws and attitudes, as well as the physical characteristics of the piece, when deciding on a suitable design for a defensive knife.

Also, there was a special issue of Inside Kung Fu called "The Complete Guide to Nunchaku & Other Weapons" from March 1987, which contains an article by David E. Steele (whatever happened to him?) called "The Stick vs. the Knife: Which is Better?". This too examines the role of the knife as a weapon in an age where the gun is supreme.
Worthy of note is that although this article concludes that there is no clear winner between the two (and that what is more important is that you are sufficiently skilled in the use of your chosen weapon) it forms part of the foundation of my opinion that the stick is way superior to the knife as a *defensive* weapon. Ironically, that is not a legal option for me.

Sorry that these articles are so obscure, but if someone can advise me on how to use my scanner to make them available to you, please let me know. (I'm not a computery type of guy).

Dom

[This message has been edited by Little claw (edited 04 December 1999).]
 
I agree with PhilL.I lived most of my life in
the Bronx.About half the time I carry a knife.I never was attacked and I'm not a big
guy 5'9" 155 lbs.I think the low lifes mostly go after the easiest targets,old men and women who could'nt do anything even if they had a blade.I think the need to carry a
knife for defense is greatly exagerated.
 
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