The Sportsman Guide Will not sell

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Hi all. Recently the Sportsman's Guide (advertiser on this forum) had a heck of a deal on a SOG dagger and battle axe. I loaded up my cart, and found out that they will not sell the dagger to PA residents. The PA law does not prohibit daggers under Section 908, only mechanical blades. They replied that there was case law that their legal department used to determine not to ship to PA. I looked up the case law that they cited, and all of the case law cited within the main case, and there is no interpretation of any of it that prohibs the use of daggers in PA. Additionally, I am a concealed carry permit holder in PA, and that provides a legal exemption from Section 908 of the PA law.

I have sent to them copies of all of the case law that they sited, but nothing. I can buy the same dagger from Amazon and have it free shipped, so I did. I will never buy anything from these yahoos ever again. If anyone wants a PDF of the three cases in question, I have these saved and can forward them to you via email.
 
Hello and welcome to the site. This post is better suited for the Feedback forum. I'm going to move it there.
 
So, you're saying you failed to read the note on the SOG dagger page that said:

WARNING: Daggers/Throwing Knives/Stilettos cannot be shipped to CA; CO; CT; DE; FL; ID; NH; NJ; NY; PA; TN; D.C.; MA or Puerto Rico.
and are now upset that they won't go against the advice of their legal department and make an exception for you based on your interpretation of the law?

It would seem that the legality, or illegality, of daggers in PA would hinge on whether one reads Pa. C.S.A. 18.908.c as

Definition.--As used in this section "offensive weapon" means... any:
metal knuckles,
dagger,
knife, razor or cutting instrument, the blade of which is exposed in an automatic way

or as

Definition.--As used in this section "offensive weapon" means... any:
metal knuckles,
dagger, knife, razor or cutting instrument, the blade of which is exposed in an automatic way

If the former, then all daggers are illegal. If the later, then only switchblade, gravity, and assisted folding daggers would be illegal. As with many "anti-knife" laws, the wording is either poorly crafted or intentionally ambiguous. I can think of arguments in favor of either interpretation, so I'm not surprised a business refused to change a policy that was clearly stated on their webpage for the product in question and based on their legal department's interpretation of that law.
 
Paul,

When I questioned them abourt it, their reply had to do with case law where they stated that there was an exception to the "mechanical" rule under Section 908. There were three appeal cases that I have read thoroughly. In two of the cases Commonwealth v. Fisher and Commonwealth v. Cartagena, the defendants won the appeal as the knives did not meet the definition of "Offensive" in Section 908. In Commonwealth v. Gatto, this was a fixed blade knife approx. 30" long. The PA Supreme Court looked at the definition '(c) Definition.--As used in this section 'offensive weapon' means any bomb, grenade, machine gun, sawed-off shotgun, firearm specially made or specially adapted for concealment or silent discharge, any blackjack, sandbag, metal knuckles, dagger, knife, razor or cutting instrument, the blade of which is exposed in an automatic way by switch, pushbutton, spring mechanism, or otherwise, or other implement for the infliction of serious bodily injury which serves no common lawful purpose.' and they also stated "It could be argued that the weapon in question is a knife and is therefore prohibited by Section 908 but thiswould be a strained reading of this statute. The items 'knife, razor, or cutting instrument' are modified by the phrase 'the blade of which is exposed in an automatic way by switch, push-button, spring mechanism, or otherwise.' If any other reading were given to this statute a butter knife, or a pack of razor blades would have to be considered offensive weapons." The court focussed on the "or other implement for the infliction of serious bodily injury which serves no common lawful purpose." The court stated that if defendant were in the jungle, then there would be a common lawful purpose for his 30" knife; however, he was in an urban area at 3:30 AM. Conviction upheld.

According to your interpretation above, then any knife would be illegal in PA, and that is not the case. Neither are daggers as they have a common lawful purpose (cutting rope, boxes, anything) and 7" is a far cry from 30".

Yes I saw the disclaimer only after loading the cart because I knew of no reason why this knife should be illegal in PA. I saw the disclamer later, and this is why I inquired with them. This is a very liberal interpretation of the law, and an interpretation where case law suggests that it is totally unwarrented. So yes, even with the disclaimer, they are wrongly including PA in their ban. The other thing is that PA is not NY. If I get caught in PA with something illegal, I go to jailn not the manufacturer, not the retail outlet. I know of no instance where PA has made threats like other states have to distributors and retail outlets. Lastly, I have a rconcealed carry permit allowing me to carry a firearm anywhere in the commonwealth except court houses, post offices and airports. That is one of the exceptions to Section 908 of the criminal code.
 
So they clearly state they will not ship daggers to PA; have what they believe is a legal concern - and you are calling them yahoos because you see it different?

What is the big deal.........no need to bash them - they are just covering their butt from a possible lawsuit. Lawsuits are killing this country in so many ways. They are just responding to the environment they live in.
 
Deep pockets. Sportsmans Guide is one of several major retailers who were taken on by district attorneys for selling what the district attorneys disapproved of, in their state.

Would you like the Guide and others to spend their annual profits fruitlessly fighting governments with effectively unlimited financial resources, so you can get your knife? In this political / legal environment, the wise businessman pays the extortionate fine and sells elsewhere.
 
Paul,

When I questioned them abourt it, their reply had to do with case law where they stated that there was an exception to the "mechanical" rule under Section 908. There were three appeal cases that I have read thoroughly. In two of the cases Commonwealth v. Fisher and Commonwealth v. Cartagena, the defendants won the appeal as the knives did not meet the definition of "Offensive" in Section 908. In Commonwealth v. Gatto, this was a fixed blade knife approx. 30" long. The PA Supreme Court looked at the definition '(c) Definition.--As used in this section 'offensive weapon' means any bomb, grenade, machine gun, sawed-off shotgun, firearm specially made or specially adapted for concealment or silent discharge, any blackjack, sandbag, metal knuckles, dagger, knife, razor or cutting instrument, the blade of which is exposed in an automatic way by switch, pushbutton, spring mechanism, or otherwise, or other implement for the infliction of serious bodily injury which serves no common lawful purpose.' and they also stated "It could be argued that the weapon in question is a knife and is therefore prohibited by Section 908 but thiswould be a strained reading of this statute. The items 'knife, razor, or cutting instrument' are modified by the phrase 'the blade of which is exposed in an automatic way by switch, push-button, spring mechanism, or otherwise.' If any other reading were given to this statute a butter knife, or a pack of razor blades would have to be considered offensive weapons." The court focussed on the "or other implement for the infliction of serious bodily injury which serves no common lawful purpose." The court stated that if defendant were in the jungle, then there would be a common lawful purpose for his 30" knife; however, he was in an urban area at 3:30 AM. Conviction upheld.

According to your interpretation above, then any knife would be illegal in PA, and that is not the case. Neither are daggers as they have a common lawful purpose (cutting rope, boxes, anything) and 7" is a far cry from 30".

Yes I saw the disclaimer only after loading the cart because I knew of no reason why this knife should be illegal in PA. I saw the disclamer later, and this is why I inquired with them. This is a very liberal interpretation of the law, and an interpretation where case law suggests that it is totally unwarrented. So yes, even with the disclaimer, they are wrongly including PA in their ban. The other thing is that PA is not NY. If I get caught in PA with something illegal, I go to jailn not the manufacturer, not the retail outlet. I know of no instance where PA has made threats like other states have to distributors and retail outlets. Lastly, I have a rconcealed carry permit allowing me to carry a firearm anywhere in the commonwealth except court houses, post offices and airports. That is one of the exceptions to Section 908 of the criminal code.
I'm merely looking at that section logically.

any blackjack does not have a blade, so there's no way "the blade of which is exposed in an automatic way by switch, pushbutton, spring mechanism, or otherwise" applies to it. The same would be true for metal knuckles. True daggers are fixed blade knives, so their blades are not "exposed in an automatic way by switch, pushbutton, spring mechanism, or otherwise". However, if it was the intent of the law for daggers to be legal, why include them in the definition at all.

My interpretation, which I fully acknowledge may be wrong, is that they intended the law to divide illegal knives into two categories, one being daggers and the other being any cutting implement the blade of which is exposed in an automatic way. Your interpretation may be correct, mine may be correct, or we both could be wrong. The real point is that there is at least some room for doubt.

As for the other, your failure to notice the warning before you got to the shopping cart does not negate the fact that it was present on the webpage listing the knife. FWIW, I know they're being overly cautious where NY, at least NY outside of NYC, is concerned. NY law allows the ownership of daggers, but prohibits carrying them "with intent to use the same unlawfully against another". PA law, on the other hand says "A person commits a misdemeanor of the first degree if, except as authorized by law, he makes, repairs, sells, or otherwise deals in, uses, or possesses any offensive weapon.", so I'm less certain than you that Sportsman's Guide would be off the hook if things went south, especially in today's economy where governments are getting more and more creative in the search for revenue. However, that's neither here nor there, it's their decision to make and they're up front about it. Be happy you found another dealer willing to sell you one.
 
Deep pockets. Sportsmans Guide is one of several major retailers who were taken on by district attorneys for selling what the district attorneys disapproved of, in their state.

Would you like the Guide and others to spend their annual profits fruitlessly fighting governments with effectively unlimited financial resources, so you can get your knife? In this political / legal environment, the wise businessman pays the extortionate fine and sells elsewhere.

OK then. If we all accept the crap that our governments are jamming down our throats, the unwarranted treatment by retailers and the erosion of liberties that has been occurring for the last 100 years, then don't complain when you have no constitutional freedoms left and you wind up the subject of the oligarchy.

I agree that Sportsman's Guide has the right to not sell to anyone they do not want to for any misconstrued reason their lawyers dream up, and I have the right to not like it and to protest publicly. Just because a policy is justified, it still does not make it right. Yours and my freedoms are circling the ring, and heading brown the drain. And complacency of the people will facilitate the process.
 
P
I'm merely looking at that section logically.

any blackjack does not have a blade, so there's no way "the blade of which is exposed in an automatic way by switch, pushbutton, spring mechanism, or otherwise" applies to it. The same would be true for metal knuckles. True daggers are fixed blade knives, so their blades are not "exposed in an automatic way by switch, pushbutton, spring mechanism, or otherwise". However, if it was the intent of the law for daggers to be legal, why include them in the definition at all.

My interpretation, which I fully acknowledge may be wrong, is that they intended the law to divide illegal knives into two categories, one being daggers and the other being any cutting implement the blade of which is exposed in an automatic way. Your interpretation may be correct, mine may be correct, or we both couldui be wrong. The real point is that there is at least some room for doubt.

As for the other, your failure to notice the warning before you got to the shopping cart does not negate the fact that it was present on the webpage listing the knife. FWIW, I know they're being overly cautious where NY, at least NY outside of NYC, is concerned. NY law allows the ownership of daggers, but prohibits carrying them "with intent to use the same unlawfully against another". PA law, on the other hand says "A person commits a misdemeanor of the first degree if, except as authorized by law, he makes, repairs, sells, or otherwise deals in, uses, or possesses any offensive weapon.", so I'm less certain than you that Sportsman's Guide would be off the hook if things went south, especially in today's economy where governments are getting more and more creative in the search for revenue. However, that's neither here nor there, it's their decision to make and they're up front about it. Be happy you found another dealer willing to sell you one.

Deacon, your logic is sound. I refuse to get in line with the sheep to slaughter. You are free to make your own choices.
 
OK then. If we all accept the crap that our governments are jamming down our throats, the unwarranted treatment by retailers and the erosion of liberties that has been occurring for the last 100 years, then don't complain when you have no constitutional freedoms left and you wind up the subject of the oligarchy.

I agree that Sportsman's Guide has the right to not sell to anyone they do not want to for any misconstrued reason their lawyers dream up, and I have the right to not like it and to protest publicly. Just because a policy is justified, it still does not make it right. Yours and my freedoms are circling the ring, and heading brown the drain. And complacency of the people will facilitate the process.

Greetings and welcome to Bladeforums.

GBU is not a place to express your political ire at what you perceive to be some threat to your life and liberty.

Did you pay money and not receive goods?........No.

Were you insulted, treated rudely or ignored?..........No.

Do you have a warranty claim that was ignored?.........No.

The retailer stated the terms and conditions of the sale and when you did not meet the conditions they refused to continue with the transaction. You are not out of pocket dime one and they have done nothing wrong.

Just because you do not agree with their terms and conditions, that does not justify this thread.
 
SG uses the strictest view of the law, and that gives me cause with buying from them. I was looking at a BB gun for my son they had listed that I could only get at a much higher price at the local gun store. Walmart and everyone in my town sells BB guns, and there is no restriction in state or local laws, but one city in state does ban the sale and ownership. They will not sell to the entire state due to that ban from one city. I guess they feel they can do without the extra business, and they have lost mine as I was a shopper for many other items too.
 
I don't buy from SG. I can't stand their hyperbolic product descriptions, and they regard 440A and 8Cr13MoV steel as "top of the line". Oh, and don't get me started on their "concealed carry badges".
 
Greetings and welcome to Bladeforums.

GBU is not a place to express your political ire at what you perceive to be some threat to your life and liberty.

Did you pay money and not receive goods?........No.

Were you insulted, treated rudely or ignored?..........No.

Do you have a warranty claim that was ignored?.........No.

The retailer stated the terms and conditions of the sale and when you did not meet the conditions they refused to continue with the transaction. You are not out of pocket dime one and they have done nothing wrong.

Just because you do not agree with their terms and conditions, that does not justify this thread.

I originally posted in the Legal forum, a moderator moved it here.
 
P

Deacon, your logic is sound. I refuse to get in line with the sheep to slaughter. You are free to make your own choices.
Mine was to spend my working life in a state with good paying jobs but all kinds of restrictions on personal freedoms, almost all of which I disagreed with, many of which I quietly bent or broke, none of which I felt worth the consequences of civil disobedience, then retire comfortably to a state with so few restrictions that I don't even mind obeying them. It's almost a wonder there are still companies selling knives, given the patchwork of city, county, state, and federal laws, any of which could have change tomorrow, (or worse, have changed yesterday) they have to deal with.
 
I've never been a big fan of sportsmanguide, but not because they don't run an honest business...more from the lack of details and misleading descriptions on military surplus from time to time.....but.....


Being a business owner myself.....but not in the retail business......hard to be upset at the retailer for trying their best to follow the massive patchwork of laws and regulations imposed on it by local, state, and federal govts. Violating these laws on purpose or accident if caught is a costly, never ending, and distracting time consuming nightmare. Doing what sportsmanguide is doing is called being smart.

If it were me, id put my angst into working with grassroots to get ousted the politicians who make my tool buying complicted and cut my choices on who to buy from....or id move to a more free state, but that's me.
 
My point is that I do live in a free state where there is no case law restricting ownership of a dagger. It is SG's interpretation and fear leading them to this policy. If this is being smart, then they will do so without my business. I can have ARs, AKs, 30rd mags., and carry it in a backpack concealed and loaded down the street legally.

You call it smart business practice. I call it cowardly and will not do business with them. I would encourage all PA residents to do the same.
 
My point is that I do live in a free state where there is no case law restricting ownership of a dagger. It is SG's interpretation and fear leading them to this policy. If this is being smart, then they will do so without my business. I can have ARs, AKs, 30rd mags., and carry it in a backpack concealed and loaded down the street legally.

You call it smart business practice. I call it cowardly and will not do business with them. I would encourage all PA residents to do the same.

My point is free large cities.....no Sir. they are covering their rears on philly and possibly harrisburg and pittsburgh. The issues is the massive patchwork of laws from the local to the state. Try setting up a business to cover who you can and can't ship to legally across the country and world for that matter. Its being smart....not cowardly....but to your point you can shop elsewhere and that's a fair statement.

My own state finally forced a one set of gun laws to stop the chaos of county, city that made honest citizens criminals, by crossing an imaginary and invisible line....but the forgot to do it with knives. I spent months finding ordinances for the counties and cities I go into and it wasn't easy. Luckily most I can still carry and use auto, daggers, balisongs and pretty much anything except ballistic knives......but I don't get down to miami and there are a few other unfree places down here. Course they are all inhabited and run by transplants.:)
 
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