The Ugly - James Thomas

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I know the rules. I simply believe they should be otherwise, although this is Spark's place, and so I have no "right" to dissent.

I am rightly expected and required to follow his rules, regardless of my opinions, and I do. No iTrader negative feedback for welshers, although there is a "transaction" everywhere else in the world, because there is "no transaction" here . Got it. Said so. I am inclined to be a rule-follower. If I ever had a buyer welsh, I would not think of trying to figure out how to use iTrader to leave him negative feedback.

I addressed a distinctly different issue - if you welsh after a deal has been struck, should you receive negative feedback at iTrader -- in all possible places -- to warn the community about your proclivity to welsh, beyond "feedback" in GBU ("FEEDBACK: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly!")? Is such a warning "warranted" (deserved under the circumstances) in iTrader as well as in GBU? While following the rules here at BF (part of the "deal" to be allowed here), I argue that welshing is as bad, and as destructive of civil society - if not more so, as anything else for which negative iTrader feedback is allowed.

I also thought the "suggested""honor system" in college in 1966 made no sense - except for cheats. So, as a history teacher, I remained in the classroom during exams at O.S.U. Eventually, the "honor system" went into the dust bin of history, and what was quaintly called "proctoring" of exams was required.
 
If you are going to back out of a deal at least have the decency to let the seller know instead of just ghosting them.

Additionally, the buyer says "How’s it going I was thinking about the blade and price and it’s almost priced as much as a new one so I’d rather just buy it new." I find it hard to believe that someone who is familiar with CRKs doesn't already know the price of a new one when agreeing to buy one listed in the Exchange. All of JamesThomas' feedback is based on buying or selling CRKs in addition to claiming he will sell one so he can fund the new purchase. I didn't bother to see how active he is in the CRK section, but I am willing to bet he is.
 
Backing out of a deal with little or no logical explanation is selfish, egotistical, and dismissive. Unfortunately this is the way that many people roll nowadays, and without any consequences.
Too bad for them, when they make it here to the GBU, where their actions will get justly analyzed and criticized.
 
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stonesell said:
Backing out of a deal with little or no logical explanation is selfish, egotistical, and dismissive. Unfortunately this is the way that many people roll nowadays, and without any consequences.
Too bad for them, when they make it here to the GBU, where their actions will get justly analyzed and criticized.
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They should wind up here as it is definitely a shitty thing to do.
 
99% of the time backing out is not a huge deal. Buyers impulsively say I’ll take it, do some research on the knife, reread the sales thread, and
sometimes change their mind. I have backed out of one deal, in less than 5 minutes, due to not seeing a NET TO ME.

Sometimes if you aren’t quick enough in saying I’ll take it, you lose
the chance on the buy. You should be
equally as quick at retracting that I’ll take it, as soon as you know you aren’t going to proceed with the buy.

In this instance, with the amount of time that passed, I feel like there was a solid verbal agreement that should be taken in to account. This wasn’t a normal never mind, didn’t see that, etc. Time solidified this verbal agreement, and through that, expectations were conceived. The buyer was just blatantly rude for the way he acted. If someone is this rude, I want to know.
 
I've never understood the inability to leave meaningful feedback. The OP ought to be able to leave negative feedback. The "buyer" would have the ability to give his own version in the feedback comments. There are simply far too many times when bad conduct in the course of utilizing the Exchange goes unknown to the rest of the community. The rules establish a bias in favor of positive feedback so strong that it overwhelms any value the system might otherwise have.
 
HappyDaddy said:
I've never understood the inability to leave meaningful feedback. The OP ought to be able to leave negative feedback. The "buyer" would have the ability to give his own version in the feedback comments. There are simply far too many times when bad conduct in the course of utilizing the Exchange goes unknown to the rest of the community. The rules establish a bias in favor of positive feedback so strong that it overwhelms any value the system might otherwise have.
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While I agree with you, I also can see where Spark may be coming from-too many people would leave feedback for petty or vengeful reasons, not that some of that still doesn't happen. There likely is no perfect answer, so this is the one Spark came up with. In the meantime GB&U is the best answer. While I think it would be good for there to be the ability to leave negative feedback in more circumstances, I think negative feedback deserves a full explanation as to why rather then the quickie Itrader method.
If everyone was reasonable there would be no problem expanding the use of negative feedback on Itrader, But if everyone was reasonable there would be very little negative feedback to give-they would just work these problems out between themselves.
My 2 cents
 
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My take as a buyer and once again, from my short 2 months experience here. But I do have experience with two transactions with the OP. Peter is an upstanding guy and too bad this happened to him. Why? becaaue he's "too" nice of a guy.
This seller so far from my transactions with him yesterday "Peterbright" is a great seller with great communication. And ours was not a fast transaction. He went out of his way with me to get me more pics of his knives he had not listed yet. I purchased two different Mnandi models totaling $800. I trusted him because I was able to read his feedback "before" I did my two transactions.

IMO, feedback is the only thing we can use when we enter into a contract of trust, especially entering into a trade without first talking on the phone first like I do before every Craigslist transaction. The trust we hold here as members of this knife community makes this a fantasic place to buy and sell knives . . . and why I've already bought around 14 knives here in two months.

For those that say this isn't Ebay at least Ebay's business model stands behind your transaction. They can afford to do so because they charge high fees. But unfortunately as a seller there Ebay seems to always side on the buyers side and they automatically bust the sale and credit the buyer back his funds. Hence the reason I rarely use Ebay anymore. We don't have any protection here other than trust (and feedback)
From my back and forth emails with Peter I know he is not desperate to sell "any" knife as its his hobby to buy and sell them.

I'm glad I came across his post as once I start selling, this was a good lesson for me.

To leave or not to leave negative feedback when a transaction has not been completed in the case if someone backs out should be a hard and fast rule of the forum IMO. Either allow it or don't.

Bottom line seems to be DON'T HOLD KNIFES for anyone and state in your post like many do "needs to be paid for within (as example) 30 min. or knife goes to next buyer. Then you have a clear rules of your sale in a contract in print over and above trust If a buyer doesn't pay within say 30 min. They really were not in a position to pay for it in the first place. PP takes cash directly from your checking account, if there is not enough in there to cover your trade . . . you were not in a position to enter an offer in the first place. PP also allows us to pay with our credit card, If you don't have a credit card or you are at your credit limit . . . sellers are not banks, why would we extend you credit, if a bank won't? We can score some great knife buys here, but its not a layaway service! Clearly in Peter's case the buyer should not have placed the offer in the first place as Peter lost out on another potential quick sale, especially if there was another poster waiting in the wings who said seconds or thirds, its unfair to them too.

You don't place an offer and once its accepted . . you continue to shop around for a better price.

What about PP's new feature where an unscrupulous buyer who has his offer accepted by you and then asks you to hold it for him for payment. They can now list another item for sale hoping to pay the .25 cent fee to PP to have their items sale go instantly into their account checking account, so he can then pay you.

If the feedback rules still allow to alert us of someone who does not live up to their word during a transaction . . . completed or not, its our only way to choose if we should enter into a deal with them just based on trust.

I don't know what the deal is here with getting negative feedback removed as this might be with Peter's case when someone just drops negative feedback on you for spite. This should be someone from the forum staff to make this call IMO, especially with Peter's documentation (and true, its still only one members side).

And the "good the bad and the ugly" section here under "knife exchange" is great thread here. I've never seen this idea in another forum. Perfect for putting someone on ignore, then you can't make the mistake of accepting an offer of someone you don't want to deal with.

Peter, thanks for this posting.

Paul
 
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^^^
A few notes
You also have GB&U to check for feedback
Using PP G&S will usually protect the parties involved, though there are scams
Moderators will correct negative feedback when left in spite but are less inclined when both parties leave negative feedback incorrectly.

Lastly-I agree the OP is a nice guy. Sometimes there is a penalty to pay for being a nice guy as this thread indicates, even if it isn't fair.
 
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Peter Hartwig said:
^^^
A few notes
You also have GB&U to check for feedback
Using PP G&S will usually protect the parties involved, though there are scams
Moderators will correct negative feedback when left in spite but are less inclined when both parties leave negative feedback incorrectly.

Lastly-I agree the OP is a nice guy. Sometimes there is a penalty to pay for being a nice guy as this thread indicates, even if it isn't fair.
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Thanks for those added notes Peter, good info that I didnt know about yet. Ya the G, B and ugly is great except who would have time to check that thread when you have only minutes to make an offer. feedback is right there in-front of you!
 
expidia1 said:
Thanks for those added notes Peter, good info that I didnt know about yet. Ya the G, B and ugly is great except who would have time to check that thread when you have only minutes to make an offer. feedback is right there in-front of you!
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It’s only a knife, take a few seconds to search this sub. It has saved many of us major headaches.
Feedback never tells a complete story as many don’t leave any or a shitty deal wasn’t completed, hence no feedback.
 
A few months back I had a buyer flake out on me after commiting to purchase and backing out. I made a thread that was allowed to stay up, and that was only a 24 hour thing. This spanning 3 weeks is rediculous. Your word is supposed to mean something. I do believe this should be an exception to the rule of no negative feedback unless a transaction has occurred. If you request a hold.... your are commiting to buying the knife. Too often is negative feedback not allowed that is rightfully warranted
 
Directly from the rules (to help out us newer members). . . Makes sense!
  1. If a deal did not happen, there is no iTrader Feedback to leave. Sorry if you were inconvenienced, but life is full of disappointments. As long as you're not out any items or money hasn't changed hands, move along. Consider improving the terms of your sales threads / read the sellers terms carefully in order to avoid this before buying.
  2. Retaliatory feedback left by buyers or sellers on deals that didn't take place can now earn you a 30 point non expiring infraction. You earn them, you get to keep them, you have been warned.
 
My bad...I had forgotten the rule about no "transaction", but I understand now. Don't think it will keep me from being "too nice of a guy". If mods can remove both negatives, I wish that they would. All this person would have had to do is contact me and say he couldn't get his knife sold. Instead he made something up. Back channel info suggests to me that this may not be the first time for him.
 
Peter Hartwig said:
We haven't heard anything from James. Was he notified of this thread?
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I left him a notification earlier in this thread. He reported the feedback a few days ago, but apparently doesn't want to take part of the discussion or doesn't really care too much about the feedback.
 
bhyde said:
I left him a notification earlier in this thread. He reported the feedback a few days ago, but apparently doesn't want to take part of the discussion or doesn't really care too much about the feedback.
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We haven't heard anything from James. Was he notified of this thread?

Can't say I am surprised. He has caught my attention since day 1 as someone who both doesn't know or really care what the rules are, if they don't favor him.
I did however want to make sure he had a chance to speak. I don't think he has much of a side, but he could have apologized. It would have gone a long way.
Oh Well
 
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No deal took place. It's bad etiquette, but with no deal you don't have authority to leave feedback. You handle this by either grumbling to yourself and moving on, or posting a thread here about the buyer's bad manners.
 
Feedback for both parties has been removed. Both parties have also received an infraction for not following the iTrader rules.
I don't agree with the removal of iTrader feedback for James Thomas. Stringing a buyer along for 3 weeks while you mull over the decision after the commitment and then backing out is total crap in my opinion, but my hands are pretty much tied right now on that.
We don't need more noncommittal flakes in the exchanges- There are enough problems with trust as it is.. Unless there are extenuating circumstances, honor your word.. If you feel it necessary to back out because you changed your mind, then do so in a reasonable amount of time.
The consequences for backing out may result in a thread here in the GB&U and your name and honor may take a hit, but those consequences are probably earned.

One last parting thought- It speaks volumes when someone can't be bothered to give their side of the tale...as with most purchases, including trades..do your research..It could save you from being a guest in the GB&U show.

This thread is done.
 
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