The Ugly...Knickoffs & Attitudes

Elvislives

Elvislives

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I just read the recently locked post started by Arthur Dellea, and all of the friendly responses to his post. I am curious, do knockoffs only suck when they're cheap? I just also read the post "Pro-Tech TR-2" on the Auto forum, and this appears to be a knockoff of a Dalton. Not to mention the S&W Extractor or the Paragon ATKO 10; both of which have been talked about here without anyone's head being knocked off (pun intended)

I am new, so discount me for that, but I haven't read anywhere where Dalton has been licensing his designs to other companies. Not to mention that nearly every knife I've ever seen is a varation of some other knife I've seen before. It's kind of like music, there is no original music only different arrangements of the same notes.

I don't like crap any more than anyone else. But I just ignore crap and move on. It just seems that this guy got blasted by a lot of people for posting here, when someone could have politely informed him that this forum generally deals with a higher caliber knife.
I have been informed by the orderlies that it is medication time, and they put my jacket back on after that to keep me warm..........
 
I think the main objection was that he had Spyderco knockoffs and Sal Glesser & Company are very popular on the forums. Sal have given voice to this problem and how it effects public perception of his company and, ultimately, his bottom line. I think folks were feeling a little protective of one their own.

However, I don`t think the type of attacks this guy suffered in his thread was warranted. There`s really no excuse for the type of ganging up that occured in that thread. I felt bad for the guy. I really don`t think he understood what was happening and I don`t think he was given the opportunity to find out. It was embarassing for the forum to treat someone in such an ungentlemanly way.

Oh well, just my .02
 
Oh, yes there is. The guy is stealing Sal's hard earned good reputation. Let's say that you develope a strange looking but effective knife and work very hard to gain public acceptance of that item. You do this with great customer service, great engineering, great design, great materials, and great quality control, ALL of which cost money, yet you sell your product at a reasonable price. Now, just when you have achieved market acceptance and can begin to look forward to some return on your investment, some clown comes along and sells a product that looks, on the surface, just like your's, but is a miniscule fraction of the cost because it has cruddy materials and quality, the engineering and design being a direct steal from you. Would you not feel as if you were being robbed by this guy. Even if his sales were not from folks who might have bought your knives, his cruddy quality and his resemblance to your knives will give your knives a bad name, which will hurt you. No matter how you look at it, this bum is hurting you. Now Mr. Dellea was hurting Spyderco, but did you see the flaming of US Cavalry for its POS copies of, say, the BUCK knife? Spydie seems to be the one that the PRC copycats go after the most, I suspect because their products are so recognisable and so respected. I find the whole business distastefull and criminal!

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Walk in the Light,
Hugh Fuller
 
I couldn`t agree with you more, FullerH. I have the highest regard for Sal and Spyderco and my buying habits bear that out.

What I objected to was the way all this was pointed out to him. It turned really ugly in that thread. I understand how Sal may be a personal friend of yours but your indignation on this topic seems a little out of balance. I feel for Sal and the battles he has to fight, but I don`t think that fact justifies my being rude to anyone in a public forum. I think there are more charitible ways to tell the folks who deal in "Made in China" POS ripoffs how you feel. At least in a public forum; especially in the dealers forum and in the guy`s own thread.
 
Well, I dont care much for rip-offs myself. Granted, its all personal opinion what could be considered a rip-off. Take TOPS knives for example. They have a tanto style, but all they did was take a much used blade style, and added thier own idea of what it should be. So, I do not consider that a rip-off at all, thier design of it seems to be quite unique. Many people make a chisel grind tanto that Emerson at least made popular. But most makers make thier own interpretation of it, and I dont think it constitues a rip-off. But the knives that we are referring to in the locked thread were pure rip-offs. They do NOTHING to try and make thier own design. They simply see a Spydero and make a mirror copy of it (with crappy materials). To me, this is an insult against Spyderco in the worst kind of way. Coast Cutlery is another offender. They have ripped off SOG so many times, its pathetic. I used to sell knives retail. We carried SOG and Coast. People would look at an Air-Sog, then see the Coast copy. I would tell them that the SOG was worth the extra money, but that they should buy whatever makes them happy. They would buy the Coast. Many times they would come back screaming that I sold them junk. I would try to tell them to look at the SOG this time, but they would say something like "well, look, its the same damn knife, and im not gonna spend even more for a crappy knife". That means SOG has lost money on thier design, and have a black mark on thier reputation. That is not fair, and Coast should be ashamed. Buck is another that has to put up with this. Look at all the junk 110 look alikes. Not fair to Buck. Maybe the guy on here selling the Spyderco rip-offs doesnt know knives, and didnt know any better. Maybe it could have been explained to him in a kinder manner. Would he stop selling them after that? Probably not, which is to bad. Sure, thier are people out there that need a knife, and cant afford much money. But the cheap knife companies that cater to these customers should at least try to make thier own designs. All the above is just my opinion.

Richard
 
1) I have never met Sal Glesser. I know him only from these forums.

2) I was very polite in my first 2-3 posts in Mr. Dellea's thread, as were most others. It was only when he got pissy with us for calling him on what he was doing that things went downhill.

3) If you read the posts, you will note that he was being disingenuous with us. He had posted here before, last July to be precise, and the members had mostly cut him slack, up to a point. This guy has no apparent consience or sense of propriety, in my opinion. I also think that he is a predator using the forums as a place to stalk prey, even in a minor way. It is up to the "powers that be" to decide what to do about him.

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Walk in the Light,
Hugh Fuller
 
I'm not at all convinced that these knock off's are going to hurt Spyderco's bottem line,You need to look at the people that purchase this type of cutlery; they are uneducated in the differances between the two but will soon be in for a rude awakining when they with time and use of the knockoff it fails in some way shape or form, and it will they will credit it for what it is a P.O.S.and through natural progression will advance in their education realizing that you get what you pay for,we have all been through this school of hard knock's at one time or another and some learn faster than others but we all eventually learn and when we do we will exersize our new found education and buy the Spyderco and once they handle the real thing they become hooked on the best and the rest is history, you have a new addition to the Spyderco forum.

Just my going off half cocked 2 cent rant

To all;Have a merry Christmas and a happy Y2K

Kevin
 
I appreciate the point about cheap copies being unfair to the reputation and financial interests of the original. There are laws that deal with those issues, ["passing off", and intellectual property rights, inter alia]but I do understand that a forumite should have the right to voice his opinion about a cheap copy, regardless of whether there in fact has been an infringement of a legal right. Myself, I thought all those linerlocks were made by Walker himself. Everyone imitates to some degree, and there are many shades of grey in this respect. However, that isn't the aspect of the thread that really concerns me. It was suggested that the knives being peddled weren't just cheap: they were, as I understood it, substandard to the point of being dangerous. Now that's something everyone who is being asked to buy something is entitled to know, if it's true. If that's the opinion of a respected member of this forum, I would like to know about it. I don't care if the knife being sold costs $2.00 or $2000, or whether it's a Spyderco ripoff or a real Spyderco [as if Spyderco would ever do such a thing].
 
Here'e the real scoop on the good, the bad, and teh ugly of that thread:

The Good:

The fact that we have members that have the guts to stand up to crooks and liars.

The Bad:

Mr. Dellea is the one who escalated the tone of the thread with his lies and invective:

My emphasis added...

How are you relating myself and my site to Spyderco? I carry Maxam, Royal Crest, Yorkcraft and other brands. In no way does my site or myself copy, cut down or even mention Spyderco products.

I think you are directing all of these flames towards me because you have built-up inner hostilities and have nothing better to do than take them out on a small business owner who accidentally placed an ad for his store in a discussion group where a few over-paid better-than-thow e-mail flame-throwers take out their aggressions on new-comers like myself.

If you cannot handle yourself in an adult, business-like manner than maybe you and your fellow flame-throwers do not belong in an upstanding site such as BladeForums. In other words, grow up, shut your trap, and direct your hostilities elsewhere because I don't have time to deal with your immaturity.
Click to expand...

The Ugly:

No explaination needed. Mr. Dellea states:

Do you people snort coke or shoot up often, or do your wardens just let you out of the funny farm on the weekends and selected evening hours? I can't believe you would all waste your online time to start and contribute to a flameshow like this. You're a bunch of children that prance around and brag about the size of your knives because of your physical lack in other areas!

I have a question for you all... what the F**K did I ever do to YOU! You are all taking out some sort of personal vendetta on me and you don't even have a clue as to who the F**K I am, except that I sell knives and posted a message here to advertise my store. BIG F**KING DEAL MORONS! GROW UP AND ACT LIKE ADULTS! GET A GRIP ON REALITY INSTEAD OF YOUR GENETALS. Say all you want I don't give a flying F**K and you can stuff your Spydercos up your A**HOLES and enjoy a nice jail cell thrill.

HAPPY F**KING HOLIDAYS SH*THEADS, and I'm hoping that when doomsday comes your empty, heartless souls will be cast into hell for eternity WHERE THEY BELONG!
Click to expand...

Poor, poor Mr. Dellea. A quality person to be sure.
rolleyes.gif


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Kelly

SenatorsPlace.com
AKTI Member #A000289

Deo Vindice


 
How can you argue with a sales philosophy like that?
It seems Mr. Dellea's attitude equals the product he sells.
 
There is a similar debate going on in the Suggestions section of Help and I am going to make the same point there that I am going to make here, to wit; if the products that Mr. Dellea sells are dangerous as well as being the obviously unethical ripoffs of a legit maker that they are, then does not BladeForums have a moral obligation to step in and act in behalf of the public. I did not initially have this position, but the arguing back and forth and Mr. Dellea's obviously uncaring personality have led me to it.

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Walk in the Light,
Hugh Fuller
 
Additionally, his posting was not a simple mistake/oversight. There was a link to another thread he posted earlier in the year, attempting to sell the same POS's. He also got blasted then.

The first reply (I believe it was Fuller H) on his last thread was very polite, indicating that he wouldn't find his target audience in this forum. It was all downhill from there, but shouldn't be a surprise to him due to his last experience here.
 
I agree his attitude sucks, you'll get no argument from me on that. It doesn't absolve the people who flamed him (and flamed him back) from the responsibility of their own actions.

I'm a bit confused about the unsafe part. I don't see the knife leaping out of someone's pocket and cutting people as they pass. If you are referring to the cheap grade of materials, you get what you pay for. If you buy a $2 knife, don't expect it to stand up to use like a $50-100 knife does.

Please note, we don't condone or support the sale of knockoffs, cheap knives, or unsafe products, but IIRC, the consumer is at least partially responsible if they stake their life on a piece of crap. If there is an obvious design flaw, yes, the manufacturer is responsible, but other than that, let's be realistic.

Spark

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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here


[This message has been edited by Spark (edited 23 December 1999).]
 
Hi, Spark. I have gone back to Mr. Dellea's thread and reread my posts. I beleive that I was consistently courteous throughout, although direct and to the point. If my plain speech is a problem, I will consider addressing it as necessary. If you think that any of my posts in his thread could have been better phrased, I am open to suggestions as I am still relatively new to the 'Net. Please email thoughts c/o my wife at GFuller@vts.edu. Thanks.

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Walk in the Light,
Hugh Fuller
 
Here's what it boils down to (leaving the language issue aside). Mr. Dellea states:

In no way does my site or myself copy, cut down or even mention Spyderco products.
Click to expand...

Now go back and look at the pics I posted in that thread. If a regular member of these forums had posted such blatant lies as Mr. Dellea did, he would have rightly been exposed for the fraud he was. Mr. Dellea can't say he didn't know that the knives he's selling are direct rip-offs of Spyderco products as he'd already been through this exact same thing in a thread several months earlier.

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Kelly

SenatorsPlace.com
AKTI Member #A000289

Deo Vindice


 
Some random thoughts ... if we start banning the advertising of unsafe knives where do we draw the line? Some very high-buck liner locks have been known to fold unexpectedly. Some of us think all liner locks are unsafe. Certainly some folders are more unsafe than others, but it's a continuum from junky knockoffs that are practically certain to fail, before long if not the first time you use them, to knives that are practically certain never to fail, with a whole spectrum between.

Seems it ought to be possible to point out the knives someone is advertising are knockoffs, are junky, are unsafe, are overpriced for value ... without making a personal attack on the fellow selling them. How about just stating the facts as you see them and leaving it to readers to form their own opinions? You could, for instance, say something like, "Those knives are cheap knockoffs of Spydercos; they're likely to fold up on you and cut your fingers off the first time you use them, and if you want a knife like that you can get it for half the price he's asking," without going on to add "he's a lying weasel." Can't you leave that for readers to figure out for themselves?

Also, keep in mind some of the members here have pet ferrets lying in their laps while they read the forums. If one of those ferrets happens to look at the screen at the wrong time he might find a reference to lying weasels confusing....



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-Cougar Allen :{)
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This post is not merely the author's opinions; it is the trrrrrruth. This post is intended to cause dissension and unrest and upset people, and ultimately drive them mad. Please do not misinterpret my intentions in posting this.
 
Cougar-

ROFLMAO "Lying Ferrets"

You, sir, are a dimented genius. I am proud to share the same cyberspace with you.

Brandon
 
well I started the small flame war about US Calvery, but that is what US Calvery is doing, they ARE trying to become a version of REI, but what annoys me is that they nock off knifes, sell them next to the real deal and make a boat load of money.

or they have immations of the real ones, If I was a non knife person and did not know the difference between the Next gen K-bar and the ripoff, I would be screwed

by the way they do sell the ripoff K-Bars

by the way the same thing happened with patmont moter werks

read some of it

www.go-ped.com
 
T4, US Cav is a great deal more than knives and a great deal more than a wannabe REI. They primary business is to US military personnel, look at their location, right outside Ft. CAmpbell, KY, and to paramilitaries ans military wannabes. They are not really interested in hikers and campers. This does not, however, excuse their selling the Buck survival ripoff or others.

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Walk in the Light,
Hugh Fuller
 
well I just don't like it because they are also selling that "urban camofoliage" crap, and going more for the whole clothing thing but you are right about the wannabe thing as well.


but I also think that companys who rip off designs of other companys deserve to be ripped off themselves.
 
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