The unskilled survival kit

You also have a stove to use that in. I don't have any experience with trioxane, to be honest, but someone mentioned shaving it for use as tinder... IMO that's asking for trouble. I don't know how windy it is in your part of the woods, but around these parts it gets pretty damned windy sometimes. I never had much luck with magnesium bars for this reason, because the shavings all blew away. It'd have to be pretty frigging windy to blow out a PJ cotton ball. Plus the cotton balls are already pre-divided, and your end user doesn't have to worry about a tradeoff between starting a fire and keeping fuel for the stove. I think if you're going to pack a stove, you should keep the fuel for it separate, so if you spend all night unsuccessfully trying to build a fire and use up all your tinder, you still have the stove to cook your food.

Nothing kills morale like cold food.
 
khalnath, trioxane has been used for years by the military to start fires, alot of people consider it to be the best, it burns very hot for 15 minutes. That is what we are looking for the simplest and the most effective. I'm leaning in this direction, and would only avoid adding the cotton balls to the list, just for the sake of keeping directions and items simple and clear for the unexperienced and unskilled survivor to follow.
 
Fair enough. But if you're going to use the trioxane for both fire lighting and the stove, I would somehow separate it off ahead of time to say "this is for the stove" and "this is for firestarting." Just so your inexperienced user doesn't have to make that call themselves.

When you have two things sharing the same fuel source, you have two things that don't work anymore when you run out.
 
With my kids' kits, I killed two birds with one stone and got blaze orange hats. Signal plus heat. You also might want to slip in a small photo of loved ones for morale.

Oh, and the money, for me, is because I don't carry cash, just cards. There was a time when we exited the woods and we were all thirsty...a dollar in quarters would have been great.

A calling card might also serve a useful purpose, by the way.
 
Good idea, Chewy, but I think more than a dollar might be appropriate. I'd say $3 at minimum...
 
Thanks. I tend to learn from what didn't work the previous time out. For us, that almost always means taking more water than we originally thought. The ponchos have come in handy, as have a small first aid kit...shoot, if it weren't for ones of those instant ice packs and an ace bandage, we might still be in the woods.

I usually instinctively upgrade our kits by what didn't work. My problem is I'm a packrat. We hardly ever slim the packs.

yes, $3 would be better. You never know when you might come out of the woods hungry, thirsty, or needing to make a phone call.
 
Shipwreck i would agree with you this is one of the better run threads. I think you are doing a great job in basicly running the thread. From what i see here it all comes down to fire realy. But thats one of the things that we need to tailor to the area of the hike or where you MIGHT need to survive. Here in So Cali making fire is no big deal as you all might have seen on TV some matches and a lighter. With maybe some cotton with PJ would be more then enough to start a fire. But if you are more up north. I can see you having more ways to start a fire.
Over all this kit would be a very good kit with everyones help on this board.

Sasha
 
Chewy: I was just thinking that a lot of vending machines nowadays take more than a dollar, especially if they only have bottles. You'd want to have money for a payphone too. Even $3 might be stretching it depending on where you live. Maybe $5 in coins and a $20 in a waterproof container. The coins add a substantial amount of weight though, so it's a real tradeoff.

This might actually be a situation where the Canadian $1 and $2 coins are beneficial, since vending machines generally accept the $2 coins, which are like half some light alloy of aluminum to boot. I think up here I'd probably put in 3 $2 coins and a $20 in a ziploc baggie. Not too much weight. I'd be leery of packing $6 in quarters when weight is an issue though.

Of course, that's not real helpful if you aren't in Canada.
 
I see the point on the cash, never looked at it that way. Did have an "expedition leader" loose the car keys once. that wasn't fun, and on an earlier trip a different guy took the keys with instead of leaving them hidden at the car like we all thought. good thing we didn't lose him in that cave! There are some good thoughts going on here. I'd avoid separating the trioxane, or any gear that is dual purpose, as that will limit the thinking of the survivor to the "rules" My dad has told me many stories of breaking the rules, and that's why he can tell them, the situation needed a different solution. sometimes less is more, if you make all of the directions based on assumptions, what happens when things change, ie, she and a friend are out together, suddenly rules for one are a detriment. I think you need to leave that call to them, and hope they make the right one.
 
Trioxane is bomb proof as long as its packaging is intact. That's why it is packaged in heavy duty wrapping. One pin hole and the stuff will dissolve into uselessness. Someone serious about survival skills will check that his trioxane packages are intact. But a novice?

Trioxane is so good in every other way that I hate to bad mouth it. But you need to be sure that it will be there for the person who needs it. If the SHTF and she finds her trioxane bar is dead, what happens then?

Maybe a couple of bars, each wrapped in heavy aluminum foil for extra protection? Maybe stick the trioxane bars in a small plastic container to protect them? I don't know what would work best.
 
Yeah... but you gotta know the rules to break 'em. The end user of this kit, by definition, won't have the experience to know how much is a little or how much is a lot for a given application. It's not like the end user can't decide "screw it, I'm using it for this anyway." Don't try to pretend it's different stuff... but since this is an unskilled kit, you have to substitute their experience for yours.
 
Just finished reading myself in, I think the kit seems pretty much fool proof. I never thought about road flares, and I don't think that they will go bad if you pack this thing now for a trip coming up sometime soon. The fire is nice, but not too important for one night stays. I'd still pack it anyways, because I'm sure my GF would want one if she were stuck out in the cold. I would still recommend one of those hand cranking flashlight/radio/alarm things because my GF likes to listen to the radio a lot (which I'm sure every girl likes to also) and this would be a big comfort to be able to listen to another voice when out alone. Just my opinion, J.
 
shipwreck said:
Hey guys, I keep having this idea in my mind of designing a kit that is as much as possible unrelated to possesing survival skills.

Help me out with ways of providing the basics of survival with the most expedient items that require the absolute lowest level of skill to utilize.

I have in mind your girlfriend, lost in the woods on a winter night with precipitation falling. Ok my girlfriend, then, someone with some common sense but almost no wood craft at all.

Let's set some limits on size, the kit can only be as large as a fanny pack. In your opinion what items do we include that will get that girl through the night and alive the next morning. And let's agree that the cell phone doesnt have a signal.

So what would you put into this kit? to cover the basics needs of a person in the above scenario? How easy could you make it for them?
Click to expand...

I hesitated reading this thread because first and foremost, I believe that someone without any survival skills should not be in the woods, let alone be lost in them.

I personally think some of you are putting way too much emphasis on fire making. I've seen too many examples (and I'm sure you have too) of people that spend time outdoors, hunting, fishing, etc., that can't start a fire. Couple this with less than optimal circumstances, getting a sustainable fire going with no experience borders on miraculous. IMHO, the emphasis should be more on clothing (yes, definitely a warm hat) - everybody knows how to put clothing on. I still would include a Zippo (not affected by the cold) in the off chance she would be successful.

Also instead of crib notes, I would include a waterproofed mini copy of Lofty Wiseman's comprehensive (for its size and general info) SAS Book of Survival. If there was some specialized survival requirements, there would be a better chance of finding some information. Also psychologically better to have something to do (read the book) rather than just sitting there, toughing it out.

I think handwarmers are a good idea, relatively foolproof.

Rather than a tube tent, I would include a survival bag which would require less expertise to make usable. Erecting a tube tent normally requires tying knots - this does not fall within the parameters of no experience - you could argue that everybody knows how to tie knots, but not necessarily effective knots that could support a tube tent and crawling out of your tube tent in the cold and possibly freezing rain conditions to retie the knots could have further negative ramifications.

The time frame, if I understand it properly, is overnight, so all that is needed is protection from the elements - you can survive that length of time with no water and no food, so tube tent/large poncho/garbage bags/survival bag, lots of warm clothes, hand warmers or equivalent.

As I previously mentioned, I would include a Zippo, just in case, and also I would include a good quality LED light, possibly a candle, and of course, before Skammer gives me sh**, a whistle. Some hard candies and that's it.

Doc

(Had to add: ) I get the feeling that it's your GF you're talking about, so take her out in the woods and teach her some skills.
 
I see your point Khalnath, but I've watched people under my instruction, even after saying, "you might need to change the technique because of X" try to do exactly as I demonstrated, even once they have proven that the method does not work for them in the same way. If they stopped and thought they would find that they have a better method. I find that if I give an adult the theory of why something works they can apply it much better than if I give a step by step guide, that for whatever reason does not work for them. I think that is why shipwreck seems to be setting it up with enough equipment for a learning curve. so what if they waste a whole bar of trioxane to get their fire started, they have two more, and will be able to figure out, with a few suggestions, how to make them last, if they need to spend three days in the wild. What works for me in many of the skills I have don't work for others, ie, I can shoot a pretty heavy scope with both eyes open, I'm cross dominant eyed, but I shoot strong side, it means that I can shoot weak side very close to as well, but my technique would be very hard for most other people to use, so teaching it would not be a good idea. when I rock climb, I'm not very good, but my shoes add a huge advantage, if someone tries to replicate what I do, it is much harder for them than if they just do it their own way. I can teach theory, and background, but (and maybe I'm just not a good teacher) but I cannot teach a method that is universal. I can "loan" my experiences, but it takes a very long time. heck half the time I'm adapting on the fly anyway, so why not just hope that they are smart enough to make it work? and if they aren't, well, I hate to sound cruel, but the herd has to get stronger some how.
 
Just in case you thinking I'm underestimating people's abilities, consider this. A couple of years ago I did a hike for a local kid's outdoors club. Their mentors were a few adult male hunters. Before the hike, one of the men, told me his wife had given him a GPS for his birthday and asked me if I could show him how to use it. I replied that I could not because I had never owned one.

On the hike, I ID'd some plants and trees and told them some of the early uses of them. Also I demonstrated some primitive skills including primitive navigation. One of the techniques demonstrated was what Ron Hood calls the Shadowless Stick technique. I explained that the developing shadow points in an Easterly direction. The hunter with the GPS said to me, "OK, I understand that shows you where East is, but how do you find North?"

Doc
 
just informational, but does anyone know what the average time frame between overdue and found is? In Alberta SAR does not activate for 24 hours after the person is reported missing, so assuming they are due in the evening, the official seach does not start until the next night, so best realistic case is for 1.5 nights in the wild (assuming aerial search sees the fire on night 2) depending the search area, and how long the person kept moving after getting off course, a 2 day search is not unreasonable I'd think. How long is a reasonable time to plan for? do other places have a longer/ shorter hold time on SAR?
 
DOC, that sounds like someone I work with. in that case, I'd have to let nature take over. some people couldn't survive if the fridge was empty and they lost the can opener, it just can't be helped.
 
As far as the US goes, it's 99% standard that an adult is on their own unless they have been missing for 24 hours or more. Now this seems like common sense to me, but it might be worth adding to the instructions to stop as soon as they realize they no longer know where they are, thus narrowing the search area.
Other than that, the kit seems pretty well thought out with all the input that's been hashed out. Personally, I'm of the same ilk as Doc when it comes to this in that; A) People with no skills really shouldn't venture into the wilderness alone. B) If those people ignore "A", then clothing is your first line of defense.
If this is indeed your significant other we're talking about, I encourage you to get them out there and start teaching them some basic skills and demonstrating things, as well as explaining the theory and "why"s of things.


Gautier
 
gadgetgeek said:
In Alberta SAR does not activate for 24 hours after the person is reported missing,. How long is a reasonable time to plan for? do other places have a longer/ shorter hold time on SAR?
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I am not 100% sure but I think you are missinformed on the 24hr rule (simple enough I can call some SAR friends in Alberta). SAR gets activated when the police call them. If thats 20mins after they have gone missing all the better. Hollywood says 24 hrs which is not the case. If someone is missing you call the police immediately.

For most places there is no hold for SAR ops, its when the authorities call for them.

One thing is for sure a missing kid does not wait 24hrs in any jurisdiction and for any reason.

Stats are not good for even adults missing more than 24 hrs let alone 48 or more, if they are in the woods they end up deceased in a sad % of cases.

Skam
 
Gautier said:
As far as the US goes, it's 99% standard that an adult is on their own unless they have been missing for 24 hours or more.
Click to expand...

This is not standard practice for missing people in the wilderness. NASAR does not teach this to police agencies. Police investigate and determine if its a SAR issue or a police matter. If its wilderness oriented they call SAR or they should very quickly.

Skam
 
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