Why do so many knife makers use steels like 440c or s30v for hard use knives or vice versa use a tough steel like 1095 for a neck knife? There are even company's and makers whom claim they have a special ht to say give s30v good toughness or make it easy to sharpen. Why not use the right steel and save some money on ht advertisement and possible embarrasement.
-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is available! Price is $250 ea (shipped within CONUS).
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/
The wrong steel for the job?
- Thread starter noob93
- Start date
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2010
- Messages
- 2,901
Some possibilities:
1a) Just because a particular steel choice may not be optimal, doesn't mean it isn't sufficient.
1b) Catastophic failures are relatively rare, which suggests that on average a lot of blades see fairly light/limited use vs. for example the fantasy that you've got to be ready to cut through an aircraft fuselage every day.
2) Makers may not have a lot of actual metallurgical knowledge and just go along with what others are doing rather than ask what is really optimal.
3) Practical considerations like availability or cost. I.e., 1095 (or whatever) may be cheap and your first choice for a given blade, but that may not matter if you can't get stock in the size/thickness you need.
4) Marketing considerations, what is going to sell best? A boring old knife in 1075 or a blade in 3V with the lastest and greatest HT?
5) Legitimate preferences on the balance of properties. I.e., if a certain steel is "tough enough" with a given hardening and geometry, it may be reasonable to forego additional toughness for better strength or corrosion resistance. Likewise, with modern abrasives, many are willing to trade-off ease of sharpening for increased wear resistance, etc.
1a) Just because a particular steel choice may not be optimal, doesn't mean it isn't sufficient.
1b) Catastophic failures are relatively rare, which suggests that on average a lot of blades see fairly light/limited use vs. for example the fantasy that you've got to be ready to cut through an aircraft fuselage every day.
2) Makers may not have a lot of actual metallurgical knowledge and just go along with what others are doing rather than ask what is really optimal.
3) Practical considerations like availability or cost. I.e., 1095 (or whatever) may be cheap and your first choice for a given blade, but that may not matter if you can't get stock in the size/thickness you need.
4) Marketing considerations, what is going to sell best? A boring old knife in 1075 or a blade in 3V with the lastest and greatest HT?
5) Legitimate preferences on the balance of properties. I.e., if a certain steel is "tough enough" with a given hardening and geometry, it may be reasonable to forego additional toughness for better strength or corrosion resistance. Likewise, with modern abrasives, many are willing to trade-off ease of sharpening for increased wear resistance, etc.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2003
- Messages
- 20,207
"Chopping" knives or axes made of steel that is not especially tough and is hard to regrind to repair damage are monuments to ignorance or greed on someone's part.
I have never owned s30v and the 440c was in a slip joint I had when I was quite young so no. Even today it would be unlikely as I'm not really an abuser but I wouldn't buy a chopper made of s30v it just doesn't make sense to me.
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2003
- Messages
- 20,207
Blame the user and not the pusher? Expect the buyer to know the seller is selling bum gear? OK.
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2003
- Messages
- 20,207
I have never died from using heroin, therefore . . . .
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2009
- Messages
- 3,345
It is common sense to know the tool you use is right for the job. With any tool, esp if theyre sharp.
Nothing analog to your pushers and users remark....
herisson
Apple slicing rocking chair dweller
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2013
- Messages
- 4,754
I know of no axe or machete made with a "high end / super hard" steel and therefore prone to catastrophic failure. Cutting tools in the "knife" category for everyday hard use are made with soft, springy, almost unbreakable steel in the 1055, 1065 grades. And it's a good choice... these blades will hit earth or stone and be bashed relentlessly : they will never break and are easy to repair with a fine file and a common wetstone. If you're aiming at cutting competitions, you're entering another world. High hardness will be desirable but not always translatable to real world use.
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2003
- Messages
- 20,207
"Common Sense" is a joke, like calling the biggest guy in class "Tiny." The typical buyer doesn't know 440C from 440 from "surgical steel."
One of the things you "buy" when you buy a blade is the supposed expertise of the maker.
Custom maker here:
One of the things you "buy" when you buy a blade is the supposed expertise of the maker.
Custom maker here:
I have many knives in S30V and 440C. BM, Spyderco etc and I usually do something stupid with my knife just for fun (since I don't have chance to use them very much) like stabbing my knife into wood and pry side out or stabbing/batoning some steel plate etc. and I never have an issued about it being too weak. Actually S30V resist deformation much better than carbon steel like 5160 especially when batoning thru metal plate . You better try it yourself and you will be surprise.
Both type of steel while may not be the best for hard use purpose but it definitely not that bad.
Both type of steel while may not be the best for hard use purpose but it definitely not that bad.
Last edited:
herisson
Apple slicing rocking chair dweller
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2013
- Messages
- 4,754
Parangs and machetes are just tools, I see no valid reason to choose a "high end" steel like 440C to make one of those. The "no rust" is exactly a "no issue" matter with the people actually using these tools. I suppose quite safely everybody will prefer a bending blade to a breaking blade... So, all hail the low carbon steels !
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2003
- Messages
- 20,207
A. You commonly stab or baton steel plate with S30V, or 440C and never have an issue? Sorry, I do not believe you. Cold chisels are not made of high-alloy stainless steel.
B. 440C and S30V are tough - just not tough compared to tough steels.
C. S30V used in an impact tool is more likely to break than deform. And then its hard to regrind into an edge. It works for cutting within limits.
Seems like the custom makers really push s30v and I'm curious why. I had one tell me that is/should be very knowledgeable that s30v is almost as tough as a2 both at 60. I suppose that would depend on your definition of almost. I also talked to a guy that tried to convince me "his" 01 would hold a good edge for a "very" long time. Not that 01 can't hold an edge because it certainly can but in no way does it hold a candle to something like elmax. Does that mean elmax holds an edge for a "very" "super" long time?
Any specific examples of these "wrong as a football bat" blades?
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2003
- Messages
- 20,207
1095 is used for plows, disks, and harrows. It can be quite tough. However, the axe-making guys tend to use lower-carbon steels, except the Mall-Ninja suppliers.
5160, also a "high carbon" steel (barely), is traditionally used for impact tools, including blades.
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2011
- Messages
- 3,236
I am primarily a collector, self-defense carrier. My biggest concern is rust resistance, so I avoid tool steel. My (collection) favorites are VG1, VG 10, and S30v. I also have a ton of reasonably priced AUS8. My only users are Moras, SAKs, and a few cheap value folders. I prefer machetes, saws, and hatchets (tool steel) for outdoor work.
Last edited:
I can't find pic of my S30v being abused but I have tested D2 which is even more "brittle" with 0.138" thick, FFG, 0.0196" at the edge .
Believe me these kind of steel are much tougher than most people thought, all you need is just proper HT.