Things you always wanted to know but were afraid to ask Kevin

Anti Inflamitory?? Tell that to the recipient of a little "kung-fu in a can" other wise known as OC (oleoresin capsicum)
Their face gets pretty inflaimed.
I do know that capsacin can be used as an analgesic though
 
http://www.functionalingredientsmag.com/fimag/articleDisplay.asp?strArticleId=942&strSite=FFNSite

http://www2.oprah.com/presents/2005/young/life/life_peppers_b.jhtml

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118536265/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

Just google anti inflamatory hot pepper! there's a whole body of both knowledge and proof, some of which is from trustworthy peer review type research and literature, and some of which is just bubbly fluff, like the oprah link above. Whichever approach you wish to take, there's plenty of info out there.

The reason it "inflames" the face is that capsaicin acts directly on the pain receptor sensory nerves in your mouth and other similar membranes. No actual damage is being done, but the nerves would swear otherwise, and thus a physiological response is prepared to deal with the source of the "injury"
 
Okay. I got one. Assume the following shop:

3 burner propane forge, no temp control beyond adjusting pressure and moving the blade around.

barrel of vermiculite

3.5 liter and 12 liter quenching tanks using safflower oil, heat is controllable but is done with burners or hot steel.

tempering oven is a large toaster oven with TWO oven thermometers.

Differential is done with edge in water and a mapp torch.

Steels commonly worked with are 15n20, L6, 1084, and 5160

How would you heat treat the metal? And how would you test it, given a couple hundred dollars to invest if needed in testing gear. I'm particularly concerned with soaking, scale formation, and "proper" hardening. AFAIK, none of these require preheating, at least the L^ and 15n20 benefit from soaking, and the quenching medium is reasonable, if natural and not specially formulated.

I HATE HATE HATE asking this. I make blades that are holding up. Chopping down trees, going into the woods, doing a fine job. But if I ask this, and Kevin just tells me I'm too dumb to talk to, then it won't matter how good the blades are, people will look at the thread and decide I'm dumber than shit. No offense, Kevin, but it's a job hazard.
 
grease-man said:
Mayo is also good for chicken and turkey sammiches! :thumbup: You guys are making me hungry! BTW...what's the best method for heat treating chicken? -Matt-
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Beer butt chicken. Stand the chicken up with a can o beer (2/3rd's full) in it's butt and roast it on your covered grill for about 2 hours at 300 degrees F.

I put rosemary and garlic in the beer, with a rub of rotisserie seasoning on the outside. Steams it from the inside, but makes a real crispy flavorful skin! Great stuff!!
 
koyote said:
But if I ask this, and Kevin just tells me I'm too dumb to talk to, then it won't matter how good the blades are, people will look at the thread and decide I'm dumber than shit. No offense, Kevin, but it's a job hazard.
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Koyote, I hope you are kidding!
 
ryan9977 said:
i got a few questions for you kevin if you don't mind......

1)what knifemakers past or present do you look up to...admire their designs etc.....could you elaborate a little on why you picked the makers u did

2)did you have a mentor when you learned how to make knives or did u go tot the school of hard knocks?

3)what is the MOST misunderstood aspect of knifemaking(in your eyes)

4)what is the longest blade you have ever made?

5)do you smoke a pipe while forging?

those are all that i could think of right now...i really like reading your posts even if i don't understand it all...hopefully one day i will....thanks for any info kevin....ryan
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Wow, Tai has really got me in the hot seat with this thread, questions I never expected coming at me like a Barbara Walters interview. While it is a bit disconcerting, as a Roman Catholic I find it somewhat cathartic like penance.

1. I think the finest art knives I have ever seen were done by Wolf Loerchner, if God could give me his hands and the skill to use them I would take them in a heartbeat. I have often said that the one thing I would like to learn most from another maker is Don Fogg’s attitude and approach to the work, if I could enjoy the process as much as Don does perhaps I could do much better work than I do, it certainly works for him.

2. At the time I thought it was awful that I did it all alone without learning from other guys, but now I believe I am a better knifemaker for it. I have always liked, and could spot knives made by guys who were isolated from the main stream, they are different and more interesting. Living in a state with 50 bladesmiths would be great for not having to reinvent the wheel but all the bad information gets passed around as well as the good, and there seems to be a stifling effect on individual styles. As the same smiths teach each other all the knives tend to look alike. When I taught my Intro to Bladesmithing class as the ABS school I strongly discouraged the students from copying my knives for that very reason.

3. Very tough question! The effects of alloying, or perhaps what a knife actually is.

4. Very easy question! 37.5 inches, it is the maximum my current salt pots can handle.

5. Yes I do smoke pipe while forging, but more so in the winter time and not a calabash, a beat up old straight nibbed is better for hands free while working. I still try a cigar but never get to enjoy it since the smoke gets in my eyes forcing me to put the thing down during critical work. The pipe doesn’t have this problem. I do not have any substance based habits as I could never tolerate something having the kind of control over me that you get with an addiction. I never smoked cigarettes, but started enjoying cigars when I was 15, the pipe came about after that while working on a dairy farm in the winter time. I could enjoy the taste of tobacco and keep my fingers warm at the same time; plus everybody remembers that odd uncle who smoked a pipe that you only saw around Christmas. For these reasons to this day I get more of an urge for pipe in the winter and on that first really warm spring day I want a good maduro cigar.
 
wow...thanks fo rthe answers kevin....i would have never guessed wolfe as your answer.....thanks again....ryan
 
koyote said:
Okay. I got one. Assume the following shop: ... SNIP
...I make blades that are holding up. Chopping down trees, going into the woods, doing a fine job. But if I ask this, and Kevin just tells me I'm too dumb to talk to, then it won't matter how good the blades are, people will look at the thread and decide I'm dumber than shit. No offense, Kevin, but it's a job hazard.
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If what you are doing is working for you that is exactly what I would do… if I were you;). As per my tag line I am not into telling others how to make their knives, but I would like them to know the facts about what is going on instead of assuming everything they have been told has to be true (including what I tell them). If they know it and pearlite near the spine is good enough for a maker, that is good enough for me, I just can’t tolerate somebody telling me it isn’t there because they choose to ignore it or because a famous bladesmiths told them it wasn’t.

I will try to tell you what I would do if locked in such a shop and told I couldn’t come out until I made the best knife I could. But you do realize that I could write several threads with this?

I would separate them into two categories, slicer steel (1084 and perhaps the 15n20 alone but definitely both in damascus) and chopper steel (L6, 5160 and the 15n20 by itself), now I have a plan and know what I am working with for what. I already know that with my quenchant the L6 and 5160 will give me fewer doubts about that part, but the heating will give me more of a problem with nothing but a forge. The slicers can be taken closer to finished dimensions and heated in the forge (less decarb due to atmosphere). To be honest I think I would just drop the L6 from the lineup with the heating tools available, accept that I could get by with the 5160, and focus my attention on the 1084 which I could still get very good results with.

For annealing I would only bother using the vermiculite on the 1084 and the 15n20. The L6 I would normalize and before cycling just below nonmagnetic several times and then grind and avoid cutting drilling or machining. The 5160 Could go the same way or into the vermiculite.

I would heat the oil to 130F-150F and quench, probably using an interruption at Ms. The oven can work for tempering but I would probably place my blades in a rack between two larger blocks of steel to even the heating out. I would temper for 1 hour and then check with a file (since that is all I would have) before tempering again.

To test the final blade I would cut very abrasive things (cardboard can be pretty nasty) for my slicers. I wouldn’t really bother with rope cutting as I find it very subjective and unreliable for consistent results. For the choppers I would hit seasoned hardwood and see if it like it before whacking something of more substance like deer antler, if I still had doubts I would smack that edge dead on and then impact at 45 degrees with a brass rod, but as I have indicated I wouldn’t bother slowly pushing the edge against anything unless I was checking for abrasion resistance. Unless I am measuring a specific property I am a firm believer in just using the knife for what it was intended to do and seeing how it works. If I am checking a specific material property I insist on tight controls and quantifiable results or I will devote my efforts to more useful things.
 
Kevin: that's awesome, thankyou. I'm looking for improvements, and you ARE helping.

I've noticed a few things- I also have a charcoal forge (washtub style, with blower and variable venturi, it's actually quite nice) and if I use it properly I get less scale formation on the 15N20 using that than the propane forge.

Why in particular would you skip the L6 given the tools?

If you could get a couple things without a huge budget to improve the process, what would you get? (I'm going to assume parks quenchant and a controlled oven are the top two, but I'm curious)

The steel for the oven is a good idea. I have noticed differentials in various ovens and that's why I have two thermometers. Do you think a large steel plate on the rack would work? (I have a 3/8 inch thick, 6x9 piece of mild steel I can try using)

I don't cut rope to test, because I know it's what my hapkido instructor calls a "parlor trick" - it's great, but anyone can be taught to do it with almost any blade. *Sawing* rope I would consider, but cardboard is free.

Chopping wood is a trick, or a learned skill, too. but even done with proper skill it is a good test of a blade, I think.

Nonetheless, and I know I keep harping on this- what would you add to the files, impacted brass rod, and cutting tests if you were going to add one thing?

Thanks very much. I'm getting a lot out of this, even if I've got 6 pages open trying to figure out interrupted quenching :D

No problems with my differential tempering methods? I could switch to oxy-acetyline, but won't buy a $100 cheapo kit and haven't quite got it together to go pay $300 just yet.
 
Kevin I know you said you really don't much care for the specifcally addressed threads, but I got some too:

1 Do you get any inspiration as far as swords go from any modern makers?

2 If you had to choose one style of sword as a favorite, what would it be?

3 You had mentioned you have done a bit of sword swinging but did not really have time to follow or practice/get into a dedicated school of swordsmanship, but based on your expeirience which sword would you personally make to use for yourself if the world was still live by the sword?
4 Do you have a favorite sword myth, one that just get's your goat :) ?

5 Do you have any favorite legendary sword stories or swords from a story? Other than historical examples, where do you get your inspiration when starting a new project?

6 Do you start with an idea in mind and design the blade completely or do you allow for some sontaneous creativity?
 
Kevin: that's awesome, thankyou. I'm looking for improvements, and you ARE helping.

I've noticed a few things- I also have a charcoal forge (washtub style, with blower and variable venturi, it's actually quite nice) and if I use it properly I get less scale formation on the 15N20 using that than the propane forge.
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Excellent! Now you are verifying what I have found. On a hunter sized knife if given the choice I much prefer a coal or charcoal forge over a gas forge. If I can build a fire brick tunnel over top of a good clean fire I can control the atmosphere for scaling and decarb much better that I could in a gas forge. If I had to do a 1084 hunter in a forge I would definitely take coal or charcoal over gas.

Why in particular would you skip the L6 given the tools?
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L6 is a little more complex in its alloying, I have found proper soak times essential and good control over the anneal important. It is a honey of a steel that needs to be treated right to get the most out of. When smiths have found it lacking it is invariably because they hadn’t fully unlocked its potential for the application. If you have simple tools and 15n20 is available L6 would be wasted while 15n20 would respond much better.

If you could get a couple things without a huge budget to improve the process, what would you get? (I'm going to assume parks quenchant and a controlled oven are the top two, but I'm curious)
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You are correct that a decent quench oil is the least expensive thing that a smith can buy to treat themselves to better control. But while every body seems to focus on the quench the most important part of the process by far is how you heat the steel before quenching. If given the choice between the high tem p salts and the low temp salts I would take the high temp without hesitation. Controlled soak times is crucial to treating modern alloys, overheating is a serious problem that we do much more often than we think, but then in our reaction to compensate for it we tend to under-heat which has it own sets of problems as well. The ability to bring the steel to a specific temperature and hold it there is the key to fully tapping its potential. It is not the hammer that changes steel in forging- it is the heat, it is not the secret potion that we quench into that makes the hardening a true success- it is the heat, the bladesmiths number one tool is heat!

The steel for the oven is a good idea. I have noticed differentials in various ovens and that's why I have two thermometers. Do you think a large steel plate on the rack would work? (I have a 3/8 inch thick, 6x9 piece of mild steel I can try using)
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Whatever will act as a buffer between the blades and the intense heat of the heating elements will help, in any kind of oven there will be a huge heat gradient from next tot eh elements to the center of the chamber, anything that helps even that out is good. But the smaller the oven the more the thermostat in action will overshoot and under shoot while attempting to maintain temperature. Large pieces of steel (or even a brick for that matter) will increase the thermal mass and level this issue out.

I don't cut rope to test, because I know it's what my hapkido instructor calls a "parlor trick" - it's great, but anyone can be taught to do it with almost any blade. *Sawing* rope I would consider, but cardboard is free.

Chopping wood is a trick, or a learned skill, too. but even done with proper skill it is a good test of a blade, I think.
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I think I like your hapkido instructor, there are very many “tests” that I call parlor tricks. Swinging at a rope is the most meaningless in terms of the knife, but I have evaluated the sawing and push cuts techniques as well and found them incredibly subjective. But pushing or slicing through a rope can be tailored to make a specific type of edge, certain heat treatments or even the hand doing it look very impressive, thus we won’t see it going away anytime soon. I always fall back on my same statement – “testing done for the purpose impressing the public or making your stuff look good, is not testing… it is called marketing.

Nonetheless, and I know I keep harping on this- what would you add to the files, impacted brass rod, and cutting tests if you were going to add one thing?

Thanks very much. I'm getting a lot out of this, even if I've got 6 pages open trying to figure out interrupted quenching
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Perhaps I would add how keen was the edge to begin with, slicing cigarette paper is a pretty good baseline for a very keen edge to begin with before doing the other tests. I always check out a journeyman applicants edge for shaving sharpness before he takes the test with me, because the rather dull condition it is in after the cutting could have been his idea of sharp to begin with- it doesn’t take much to cut hair off a mans arm.

You are welcome, interrupted quenching is simply a poor man’s marquench, but instead of using 400F salts you use 100-150F oil to get the blade down under 500F quickly and then pull the blade out to allow it to cool and harden more gently.

No problems with my differential tempering methods? I could switch to oxy-acetyline, but won't buy a $100 cheapo kit and haven't quite got it together to go pay $300 just yet.
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Not if you have no problems with it. As long as you know what is really is doing for you, and why, that is great. It will give you much higher impact toughness in the body of the blade but lower strength overall, for a large chopper made from the 1084 that will be handy, on L6 it could be a little pointless.
__________________
 
Sam Salvati said:
Kevin I know you said you really don't much care for the specifcally addressed threads, but I got some too:

1 Do you get any inspiration as far as swords go from any modern makers?

2 If you had to choose one style of sword as a favorite, what would it be?

3 You had mentioned you have done a bit of sword swinging but did not really have time to follow or practice/get into a dedicated school of swordsmanship, but based on your expeirience which sword would you personally make to use for yourself if the world was still live by the sword?
4 Do you have a favorite sword myth, one that just get's your goat :) ?

5 Do you have any favorite legendary sword stories or swords from a story? Other than historical examples, where do you get your inspiration when starting a new project?

6 Do you start with an idea in mind and design the blade completely or do you allow for some sontaneous creativity?
Click to expand...

I do hate whole threads with my name in the title, they exclude valuable input from others, suggest that my input is some sort of final authority, and can foster resentment among forumites for the little tin god who would rather not be a little tin god. I am just a messenger; I don’t ever want to be the message itself. But this thread is getting things back to good question and answer instead of the diatribes we have been caught up in, so it is good.

1. It depends on how you define “swordmaker”. It is hard to swing a dead cat without hitting half a dozen guys doing the Japanese style these days. The whole genre has almost become a cliché, that is not to say that there are not some very excellent katana makers out there, but my inspiration would be in the western sword scene which is a very small group and I can count on one hand the number of guys who have taken the time to research original European sword design and use. The sword scene is so much smaller than the knife scene that it is like asking who in your immediate family you would choose. I can’t think of any maker who has measured and studied more original swords than Peter Johnson and his work shows it! When Peter stayed with me last fall we spent a few hours comparing drawings and talking swords and then the rest of the time enjoying good scotch and laughing our fool heads off. The only thing I respect more than his work is him as a person- a class act all the way. Rick Barrett helps keep me stay energized by all the laughing we do together, and not allowing me take all this blade nonsense too seriously. Rick and I spend about 10% of our time together talking blades and 90% talking video games, Adult Swim cartoons (no blade is as important as watching The Venture Brothers!) And enjoying good food and beverages. And of course there is Vince Evans, I love his work and I love his style. I must confess that with Peter Johnson and Vince Evans I have gotten the opposite of inspiration, since every time I look their work I feel like quitting and finding a new career. I feel I have met some of the best of the best, and they all have the same things in common- humility, friendliness with a priority on their work, not how much money they can make or who they have to beat. Their personality is heavily reflected in their work.

2. Any style I would say is my favorite today would not be the same one I would say two years from now. I will always have a fondness for anything from Oakeshott X though XIIa styles they are the classic medieval swords. I am not big on the design and handling of Viking and pre-Viking blades but the construction will always fascinate me. Rapiers have tickled my fancy for more than a few years now. It is funny when Vince Evans and I met I was doing Saxon style stuff and he was doing Scottish basket hilts, we laughed at this years Blade show how now he is going earlier in the dark ages and I am going later in the renaissance. I can never be static and make just one style, it would kill me. I can give you a hint as to where I will always go next however- wherever everybody else is not, I won’t do trends or fads and I have to be me. I haven’t made a katana in well over 10 years.

3. Either a longsword (something like an Oakeshott XVII or XVIIb) or perhaps a gladius. Either nail them at a distance with good speed or be able to move and stick close up. It would all depend on the circumstances and style of fighting.

4. Almost any of the garbage we have been fed about katanas. Don’t get me wrong, I love those swords, but the real deal not all the fairy tales a hoopla that Hollywood and mythology has heaped upon them. Most of the really good guys doing the Japanese style that I know hate the hype as well. I get tired of explaining why storybook magic doesn’t work in western swords imagine how tired those guys must be from reeducating people, or how wonderful it would be to have your creations whacking all kinds of metal objects because everybody knows a good katana can cut a machine gun barrel in half!

5. Tolkien, that pretty much says it all for many modern sword enthusiasts. First read the ring trilogy when I was 14. I would often skip school and lay in the sun on a huge log that fell across Fish Creek- a kid could do worst things when not in school. I also enjoyed stuff from the Norse sagas and read Le Morte D’Arthur after Tolkien. But I kept them all in perspective; fantasy is fantasy regardless when it was written and reality is where we have to live so I went on to make real swords using real methods.

6. Only after you have done many of the same style can you be spontaneous in the creation of a good sword. All the subtle details of handling, cross sectional weight and balance and geometry are too complex to wing it the first time in a age when we have no idea how these things are really used. In the careful preplanning you will discover many things about a particular type of sword that you couldn’t if you just tried to make it. After this your chances of success in doing you own thing will be greater. Fantasy swords are often done because the parameters can be whatever you want them to be- it is after all fantasy. But historic reproductions are another story and are as real as it gets.
 
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Some good little nuggets here. I think these would make good sigs:


"It is not the hammer that changes steel in forging- it is the heat, it is not the secret potion that we quench into that makes the hardening a true success- it is the heat. The bladesmiths number one tool is heat!"

"Testing done for the purpose of impressing the public or making your stuff look good is not testing… it is called marketing."
 
Kevin R. Cashen said:
L6 is a little more complex in its alloying, I have found proper soak times essential and good control over the anneal important. It is a honey of a steel that needs to be treated right to get the most out of. When smiths have found it lacking it is invariably because they hadn’t fully unlocked its potential for the application. If you have simple tools and 15n20 is available L6 would be wasted while 15n20 would respond much better.
Click to expand...

I've been soaking by getting the blades up to non magnetic and then keeping them the same color using the mouth of the forge and firebircks. It's *excruciating* work, but by the only standards of performance testing I have, it is working.


Kevin R. Cashen said:
You are correct that a decent quench oil is the least expensive thing that a smith can buy to treat themselves to better control. But while every body seems to focus on the quench the most important part of the process by far is how you heat the steel before quenching. If given the choice between the high tem p salts and the low temp salts I would take the high temp without hesitation. Controlled soak times is crucial to treating modern alloys, overheating is a serious problem that we do much more often than we think, but then in our reaction to compensate for it we tend to under-heat which has it own sets of problems as well. The ability to bring the steel to a specific temperature and hold it there is the key to fully tapping its potential. It is not the hammer that changes steel in forging- it is the heat, it is not the secret potion that we quench into that makes the hardening a true success- it is the heat, the bladesmiths number one tool is heat!
Click to expand...

I was unclear when I wrote- I did actually mean quenchant and a temperature controlled kiln. And honestly, I want a temperature controlled kiln badly. Again, it's the difference between this old potters kiln sitting on my porch unused and soemthing built for the work. I can rig a controller to this potter's kiln, but I'm going to do better if I just get a deeper (8 inches isn't much) kiln with a programmable controller. Which is $$$$$$

Kevin R. Cashen said:
Whatever will act as a buffer between the blades and the intense heat of the heating elements will help, in any kind of oven there will be a huge heat gradient from next tot eh elements to the center of the chamber, anything that helps even that out is good. But the smaller the oven the more the thermostat in action will overshoot and under shoot while attempting to maintain temperature. Large pieces of steel (or even a brick for that matter) will increase the thermal mass and level this issue out.
Click to expand...

I've been considering using a convection oven. Haven't tried it, but it's forced flow hot air, I don't see how it could be less even, and it could be really good.

Kevin R. Cashen said:
I think I like your hapkido instructor, there are very many “tests” that I call parlor tricks. Swinging at a rope is the most meaningless in terms of the knife, but I have evaluated the sawing and push cuts techniques as well and found them incredibly subjective. But pushing or slicing through a rope can be tailored to make a specific type of edge, certain heat treatments or even the hand doing it look very impressive, thus we won’t see it going away anytime soon. I always fall back on my same statement – “testing done for the purpose impressing the public or making your stuff look good, is not testing… it is called marketing.
Click to expand...

I think that sawing, push cutting, even slicing rolling papers is very much dependent on the tool user, not just the tool. That being said, and acknowledging the subjectivity of tests with such indefinite granularity of measurement, I think I do a fair job of saying "this bushcrafter batons well and will handle your cutting and slicing needs." I can see ways to improve the measurement, the paper cutting is a good one. I do shave before and after testing, and like to take it down to where it won't shave and then give it a stropping to see if I can get it back quickly. That can take a while.

I tried impact testing on a brass rod yesterday. not sure what I'm looking at, there's a severaly scarred brass rod and a still-sharp knife out of it. No chips or dents.


Kevin R. Cashen said:
You are welcome, interrupted quenching is simply a poor man’s marquench, but instead of using 400F salts you use 100-150F oil to get the blade down under 500F quickly and then pull the blade out to allow it to cool and harden more gently.
Click to expand...

I'm trying to understand the process, and not quite getting it. this aids in the conversion of austenite to martensite?
 
Thanks Kevin! You guys catch any of the new Venture Bros. episodes yet?!?
 
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koyote said:
...I'm trying to understand the process, and not quite getting it. this aids in the conversion of austenite to martensite?
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Many think this, but not really. In fact if it is not done right it could hinder that conversion. The idea behind it is to eliminate stresses that could result in warping or cracking, one also sees a pleasant gain in toughness. In quenching to form martensite all one has to do is avoid making pearlite or upper bainite (or if you are really slow in quenching, lower bainite) and the only thing left to make is martensite. So all we need the supercooling effects of a quench for is to avoid these other structures, the cooling should still be continuous but it need not be as fast towards the end. In fact the gentler you can be from the point martensite starts to form down to room temperature the better it will be for the steel in terms of stress related problems. From that temperature where martensite begins to form (called Ms) on, there will be increasing degrees of martensite forming out of the soft austenite, which leaves it very "moveable" should you see any distortion that does crop up, so you will have several minutes to gently straighten the blade before it fully hardens. Also, depending upon the steel, a significant percentage of martensite will form above 300F where the slow cooling blades own thermal mass can begin o temper it; this is the "autotempering" effect that often refer to. Many smiths who try these techniques get scared when they Rockwell the blade and find as much as 2 points difference in hardness and assume that the blade is not reaching full hardness, when in fact they just don't fully understand the process and that one can only compare hardness after tempering between the two techniques. The one thing I really need to stress though is that this IS NOT a replacement for tempering it is simply a very small head start on it; the blade will still require a full temper.
 
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