Things you always wanted to know but were afraid to ask Kevin

How do you know when a piece is finished?

When:

A. The next thing I do is simply gilding the lily, and things will just be down hill from there.

or

B. The next thing I do could result in me screaming "ARRGGG dirty rotten @#@& Son of a $%*&*! Go@$%& it!!!! Now I have to fix that! Why didn't I just leave it alone! Kevin you dumb@$$! There is no such thing as perfect!!! Argggg #$%@*!!
 
B! it's all about B! I hate it when I- all too often- make a mess trying to fix some nearly imperceptible visual flaw.
 
I wasn't asking only about the surface treatment,... but rather the knife (or sword) as a whole,… looks, performance, etc...

It's a philosophical question. :)
 
Last edited:
Then I suppose everyones answer will be different;)

Maybe not.

The question isn't how do you finish a knife, but,... "How do you know when it's finished?".

Since we all manage to know when our knives are finished somehow...

...There's probably a very simple fundamental and obvious answer...

... or do we just "give up" at some vague point short of "perfection"? :(
 
Last edited:
Not seeing hte problem, here.

you ask "how do you know when a piece is finished?"

Kevin answers with stuff *I*, at least, can understand. "Gilding the lily" can refer to more than just "surface treatment".

To be honest, while I tend to try to understand what people are saying and promote communication instead of picking apart grammar structures, I'm not sure I understand "fulfills its concept". I strive to finish blades in a balance, with what *I* would call a proper place in the flow, but I won't try to enforce my ideas of wei wu wei on others. BUt I'm not sure the blade itself owns a concept of itself as such.

Kevin said something very specific, that I think got overlooked. "There's no such thing as perfect" doesn't mean giving up short of perfection. No, it means realizing there's no such thing as perfect. This point may be a little too philosophical for the discussion.
 
Maybe not.

The question isn't how do you finish a knife, but,... "How do you know when it's finished?".

Since we all manage to know when our knives are finished somehow...

...There's probably a very simple fundamental and obvious answer...

... or do we just "give up" at some vague point short of "perfection"? :(


I understood the question perfectly:)

How's this.....

We all finish to our own level of competency
 
or do we just "give up" at some vague point short of "perfection"?

My guess is that this is true to some degree for almost everyone.

It has become a pattern that I have noticed. In each step, there comes an endgame where anything else I could do would cause as many problems as it creates.

When I'm forging, I get down to the hammer polishing stage, where I'm trying to smooth and even everything out by hammer as much as possible, to minimize and make easier the filework ahead. There comes a point with the hammer polishing that any more striking with the hammer that I am doing is making dings, dents, bulges, or other undesireable marks just as fast, or faster than it is evening then out. That is the point at which I'm done hitting with a hammer.

The same is true of filing. When I get to the point of one stroke with a file at a time, and I begin to notice that whenever I cut with the file, I am making undesireable side effects as fast or faster than I am removing, then I'm done filing.

And so on, with sanding, polishing, shaping handle material, affixing the handle, etc. right on down the line. Once everything is put together and polished, and I can't do anything else without creating as much a problem as I may solve, the knife is done.

This is, frankly, the part of knifemaking that bothers me the most. The project I am currently working on, for example. I had to leave the file behind at a point that I was in no way satisfied with. The bevels are not nearly as straight as I would like, nor as even, side to side as I would like. However, every stroke of the file seemed to make another area as uneven as the one I just fixed. I chased one low spot down one end of the blade, only to find that it made the other side look too steep. I tried to get the other side evened out, only to start chasing another low spot. With a double edged symmetrical design, this quickly became a losing battle.

To put it into perspective, I have a friend I've tried to teach a bit of knifemaking to. Now, I'm not much of a knifemaker myself, and I'm terrible at teaching anyone anything, but Mike and I speak the same language, and he's sharp as a whip. He's good with his hands too, having worked wood most of his life. Thus, I figured he stood a good chance of learning something from me. He made exactly one knife and gave it up for the birds. When I showed him the sword in progress he asked me "how the hell do you get those bevels so damn straight and even?". This was the very thing that disappointed me the most about the blade, and it's the one thing he picked to compliment.

Anyhow, to make my point, it's my best guess that as experience and expertise grow, this point of diminishing returns receeds, and becomes finer and finer, but never actually disappears. Thus, we know when it is finished when we reach the point of diminishing returns on the project as a whole.
 
Kevin I have a question if you don't mind?
Since you use salts to heat treat, do you bring the steel up to the 1500 to ? mark, before putting the blade into the 1500 to ? hot salts?
I'm using a paragon oven and have been "preheating" with a torch to the "BLUE range" (there's that word....)
so as not to "shock" (the other word) the steel. From cold to screaming hot. Is this good pratice? Or a waist of time?
I also think this has been a good learning thread.
I also miss Mete.
 
...The question isn't how do you finish a knife, but,... "How do you know when it's finished?"...(

Well personally I think a knife is done when I can not make any improvements based on my skill, knowledge, and/or tools. This is my excuse for not finishing many knives; because I learn more as I go and can always make that slight improvement. :p :thumbup: Although gas prices are causing some changes in my thinking :grumpy:.

Kevin does unicorn blood work better for quenching than quenching the blade in the body of a fallen enemy? :D What salt would you suggest for quenching steels that have a low critical temperature? (ex. 1084, 1095, 5160, ect.)

I don't have any major burning questions because I still have so much to read and experience. So thanks for providing great information and when will your book Understanding Metallurgy: for Dummies be published?;)

-Dan
 
The concept is never fulfilled for me if it is a piece that I envisioned and really wanted to do, our minds eye image of a thing can indeed be “perfect”. Perfection is for God or nature alone, man will not, can not, and should not ever achieve it; for to obtain it would be the end of progress; when humans quite progressing they instantly begin to die. As I passed into middle age I encountered some really trying times in my life and as they passed I adopted some ideas and guiding concepts that help me achieve balance, one of these is my definition of happiness. For me happiness is overcoming adversity. I don’t mean the absence of adversity I mean the process of overcoming it from which we learn and grow. This makes the bad times every bit as precious as the good ones. History shows us that when most major challenges are removed from a civilization, lack of progress from complacency invariably leads to collapse. As a species we need to struggle and climb in order to grow, if there is not a taller mountain to immediately start on we should not be allowed to reach the summit of the one we currently climb, or we will trade a brief moment of exhilaration for the spark of life itself.

Each blade I make MUST be better than the last or I will move on and find better things to do than make knives. If I am making the same knives 20 years from now that I make today, I hope somebody has the decency to tell me to retire. Thus in a way I hope no piece is ever completely “finished” in the sense that there is nothing more I could have done. My knives are still evolving on a monthly basis, thank God. I have buckets of blades that the only problem with them is that my methods and style changed enough in the time they sat on the shelf that I simply scrapped them instead of finishing them out.

In determining “finished” we all establish personal criteria to meet, this criteria will change over time that is how we get better. Visible, scratches and finish is often that since the final polish is often the last thing we do. Some folks totally assemble the knife and then polish it out as a whole. I make each component separately, bring it up to my standard of finish and only then add it to the knife. I now wear magnification at all times at this step to insure that it will meet my standards to the naked eye.

When I am handed a beginners knife to assess I do not see my criteria since he cannot see my criteria, I try to shift back to my criteria 20 years ago and then bring him forward in time just enough to be helpful. When you hold a makers first knife you can’t condemn them for the scratches and gaps, inside of him is the ability to overcome them, but his eyes have not been trained to see them as flaws. It is not that they know the differences and choose not to or lack the ability to fix them, they just need to develop that increasingly stringent criteria. In my estimation that is the only difference I see from the ABS Journeyman judging room to the Mastersmith judging room.
 
Kevin I have a question if you don't mind?
Since you use salts to heat treat, do you bring the steel up to the 1500 to ? mark, before putting the blade into the 1500 to ? hot salts?
I'm using a paragon oven and have been "preheating" with a torch to the "BLUE range" (there's that word....)
so as not to "shock" (the other word) the steel. From cold to screaming hot. Is this good pratice? Or a waist of time?
I also think this has been a good learning thread...

I go right in and heat. Preheats are for complex shaped parts that will have sections pass through the shift from bcc (body centered cubic, i.e. ferrite or pearlite) to fcc (face centered cubic, i.e. austenite) at different rates than others and the contraction can lead to heavy distortion. Blades, as much as we struggle with them are still very simple cross sections.

...I also miss Mete.
:thumbup:
 
...Kevin does unicorn blood work better for quenching than quenching the blade in the body of a fallen enemy? :D
You get what you pay for that is why virtually no smith can quench in unicorns blood, it is all part of the quench oil companies conspiracy to take our money with products that are actually no better than french fry fodder;)

What salt would you suggest for quenching steels that have a low critical temperature? (ex. 1084, 1095, 5160, ect.)...

Critical temperature is a relative term and I am not sure what it means in your question. For austenitizing you have a range there from 1475F to 1525F with those steels. If you mean austenitizing salts (high temp) Park's Nu-Sal is all I have experience with and will work for all of those steels. If you mean quenching, brine (salt mixed with water) is the only thing that will work on all of them (the 5160 REALLY will not like it though). 1084 and 1094 should not be quenched in mediums heated to 400F or better as they just will not cool fast enough to fully harden. There are some folks who claim you can get this to work with modified techniques, and I say their standards of succes are competely different than mine or they need to show me their data and results, because I have been experimenting with this myth for several years now and have drawers full of samples that are not above 48HRC. You can get 1084 to harden in salts by bumping the austenitizing temp up but grain growth begins quickly at the same time so it is kind of a wash. Lowering the austenitizing temp and holding a longer soak always results in lower hardness, despite what I have heard from others (I have went beyond 30 minutes in some of my tests).

5160 however will quench quite nicely in low temp salts.
 
WOW!!! Kevin, I think you just summed up the entire existance of an artist of any kind!! I finish very few knives because they somehow never seem to live up to my expectations. I look at each one and see what's not right. It's hard to keep in mind that not many people can actually comprehend or execute what we do as knifemakers. There's always the little voice that says 'eek,I won't do that again', but someone else is just amazed. I have a lot of respect for people who can make a knife from start to finish without losing the desire because it's not 'perfect'. I get to a point where if I can't make it what I want it to be,it stays on the bench for referance and reminder. I have stuff sitting on the bench from shaped blades to knives that only need a butcap. I either need to refine my standards of what is acceptable or build another bench! Somehow, I don't think lowering my standards is going to happen so I continue to learn and try to create what I expect of myself.

As far as a point of being 'finished'? I have'nt 'finished' one yet, I just quit working on them! Some are allowed to leave, others will never be seen!!:(
 
The best substitute for unicorn blood that I have found is koala blood. Takes a lot of koalas, though.
 
O.K. Thanks Kevin and everyone else that had some input. I was just curious what your philosophy is on that question.

To tell you the truth, I really don't know…

The question came to me from a five year old a long time ago, and I've never found an answer that was "perfect", or that I was completely comfortable with. I just said something to the effect of, "When it's finished I look at the clock and see what time it is".

There might be something wrong with the question. Maybe there is no way of absolutely knowing, but rather just making a simple judgment call.

I can't honestly say that each knife I've made was better than the last, because the criteria and concept changes from piece to piece. One day it's a presentation bowie and the next day it's a kiridashi to sharpen pencils with. They are all different and individually unique. I just try to do as good job as I can under what ever the circumstances are...
 
...The question came to me from a five year old a long time ago, and I've never found an answer that was "perfect", ...

...There might be something wrong with the question...

There can rarely be something wrong with a question asked by a 5 year old, they possess a clarity of thought that the years deprive us of.:(
 
Back
Top